Qualify discussion

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Now that we have tried the new qualify format once, we need to discuss it and figure out what to do in the future, in the form og rules, guidelines or changing the format.

For me it is one thing that is important for such a qualify format to work; everybody must understand that it is in your (and everybody else) interest that you do not have a faster car behind you on your outlap. In a perfect qualify we would automatically sort out the order on the out lap. Eg. if I see David in my mirrors I would want him to pass me, and if I see Vale ahead of me I would want to pass him. For this to work though, either name tags must work or one must recognise all skins to identify who is around you.

Greatly simplified I would think that at Spa most gambled on going out immediatly and try to get two runs. An alternative would be to wait for the perfect gap and only go for one run.

 

[Henrik Jordfald Olsen]

I thought it was alot more fun than earlier qualis - although I must admit that I thought it was only one lap - this resulted in me spoiling lap number 2 for someone . (I honestly had not read the forum posts properly).

Also I had no nametags as that button did not respond - next time I will wait and only do one lap.

I vote for keeping this kind of qualification.

 

[David Turnbull]

it certainly didnt work for me, i was 5th or 6th car in line to leave the pits at the green light, in front of me i had a group and behind i had a group, from the les combes corners i tried to ease off and leave a gap to the guys in front as there is no point me trying to overtake them on the outlap, with trying to leave a gap folk behind need to realise this, i had henrik right up close behind me making me worry so i had to just let him past and then anthony comes through the groups like hes racing for the win, very nearly taking me out at stavelot if i hadnt anticipated he was going to try pass me on the outlap.

once id managed to actually get a gap that i could work with i got 1 lap in fairly straight forward, the second lap from les fanges i was right on anthonys tail, having to lift into blanchimont so as not to try and pass on a qualifying lap, out of blanchimont i was nearly past anthony on the inside into busstop but he broke really late cut over in front of me and i had to slam in the brakes and take to the kerb to avoid him.

i understand we are each on our fast laps but there has to be some common ground, there is absolutly no need to be trying to overtake as many cars as possible on an outlap, if the people behind me had realised im trying to leave a gap to the guys in front they should understand its in their best intrests to leave a gap to me behind too, obviously not.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

i had henrik right up close behind me making me worry so i had to just let him past

If we all had the same idea on how to do this it would have worked better. Henrik should not be wanting to be ahead of you. If we all were (roughly) in the order of our pace it would be very different.

I tried to pass those cars who I am faster than, but if I saw someone with my pace or faster ahead of me, I would have settled behind them. Unfortunatly I had a hard time identifying the cars around me.

 

[David Turnbull]

i just didnt see the point in trying to pass the 5-6 cars ahead of me though nico, when we left the pits those 5-6 cars bolted and started fighting for position on track, if i get myself in there too theres more chance of an incident, by the time we'd got through les combes i realised i was just having to settle down and try leave a couple seconds gap, this is when henrik was right on me, i obviously didnt want yet another car in front as id then have to get another gap, but he was very close so i had no chocie but to let him pass me on the run to pouhon, then anthony was very close coming to stavelot having passed a few cars already, i went wide to just accept he was going to try the pass, he locked up and my heart was in my mouth, so yet another car in front to try leave a gap to, it didnt work this time, i'll try again though

 

[Anthony Ishak]

Nico can you please open a second race server on the day for those who like to race and have fun without disturbing in any way the top drivers ?

I will be the first to join that server and honestly wont mind to do the full race with only one single driver on track as long we both are happy before and after the race.

Thanks

 

[Dino Paolini]

Nico can you please open a second race server on the day for those who like to race and have fun without disturbing in any way the top drivers ?

I will be the first to join that server and honestly wont mind to do the full race with only one single driver on track as long we both are happy before and after the race.

Thanks

I'm surprised that you didn't understand David's point about beeing agressive with passing multiple guys during qualyfing. He was certainly not talking about the race there I'm sure.

 

[Vincenzo Cavaliere]

I think is OK this Q option if we have 20mins like F1 Q1, but for only 7 mins one or two laps is to tightened for the traffic, I made my only one laps with cold tires

 

[Richard Hill]

I agree with Vincenzo but 10 mins might be better than 20 imo but might be better on a shorter circuit to stay as we are

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I see the traffic as a welcomed challenge, and I know we will naturally develop/improve knowledge, skills and strategies to make it work smoother.

However, nothing will work if not all drivers understand the logic in not wanting a faster driver behind on the outlap. If you are among the slower drivers you want to be at the end of the line of cars and vise versa. Also, all drivers on an outlap naturally needs to give way to those comming from behind.

I would vote to try it one more race, provided we reach some common understanding of guidelines for qualify.

 

[Alberto Casado]

I found it fine, but of course Q is not very important to me, with my race pace my position will get sorted out much much later independently of where I started. I understand for the top runners that are within a few tenths pole or not might be worth half a victory.

Maybe we should go to q by the order of practice session. 1st one writes his name in chat and leaves, couple seconds later 2nd one... and so on. You just have to look for who is in front of you at the end of practice and not go out until you read his name.

Still possibility for a bit of mixing (depending on pit box location), but for sure it would prevent the slowest driver in front of a potential poleman.

This eats away quite a few seconds from the back drivers (i.e. me) but I am fine with that, it would even spice up practice sessions with people trying to get better laps.

 

[Alberto Casado]

Added: since we are doing 3 practice starts, we can go to grid in this same order to get the process smoothed out before Q.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

We could add a simple rule that sais that:
a) You need to leave at least 2 sec gap to car ahead before starting timed lap
b) If the car behind catch up with you on your timed lap you need to give way
c) You are not allowed to bother anyone on your outlap

I think if everyone drove by these rules the rest will sort itself

 

[Nicolas Rouge]

To be honest I don't care about Q, since I never practice it (except for Monaco), so I don't complain about it, but I can understand our top drivers to be frustrated by this new format.

About the rules, maybe we should also do something about the order of the pilots, like Alberto's idea. At Spa I was just behind Kurt, and Guus was in my tail. We let some space between us at the start of the first timed lap, but we were all reunited in the last chicane, so the second lap was a bit slow for us in the first part of the track. Since we now have a season ranking, why not use it to decide the order of the pilots, and use the outlap for us to get to the correct spot? It does not represent the inherent pilot speed but it's a good guess.

Singapore is also a long track, so we'll face a similar issue if everyone wants 2 timed lap.

 

[Dino Paolini]

We could add a simple rule that sais that:
a) You need to leave at least 2 sec gap to car ahead before starting timed lap
b) If the car behind catch up with you on your timed lap you need to give way
c) You are not allowed to bother anyone on your outlap

I think if everyone drove by these rules the rest will sort itself

a) is generally a good idea, atleast if you expect to catch up to the one in front

b) definatly not possible as a rule; this can only happen as a choice by the guy in front if he thinks that his q-lap will not be good and he starts concentrating for the next one, or something like that.

c) This should be common sense anyway


btw I prefer an open qualy to superpole. I have no probs with 7mins or with 10mins

I'm also not for the going out in order thing. That would just be a much more confusing version of superpole in my opinion.

 

[Alberto Casado]

We could add a simple rule that sais that:
a) You need to leave at least 2 sec gap to car ahead before starting timed lap
b) If the car behind catch up with you on your timed lap you need to give way
c) You are not allowed to bother anyone on your outlap

I think if everyone drove by these rules the rest will sort itself

Two seconds are by far not enough if, for example, I get Reik behind me.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Two seconds are by far not enough if, for example, I get Reik behind me.

That's the point with the rule, that you make sure you do not have Reik behind you (you need to let him past in the outlap).

b) definatly not possible as a rule; this can only happen as a choice by the guy in front if he thinks that his q-lap will not be good and he starts concentrating for the next one, or something like that.

As I said above to Alberto, this rule will make everybody understand that being in front of a car that is faster is not a good idea, so they will naturally let them past in the outlap. If you fail to do so you will have to allow them past if they catch up with you.

I'm also not for the going out in order thing. That would just be a much more confusing version of superpole in my opinion.

I agree with this, that's why I would like a set of rules that makes the drivers naturally sort out the order (avoid being ahead of a faster car).

 

[Bob Luneski]

First, I am a big supporter of the open qual, but I do share some of the sentiment/frustration David has expressed re: the mad scramble to the line and fighting for position during the outlap.

I had a feeling it would happen and didn't want to get involved so I waited until the initial rush to the line was over and was about 12th-14th out. I tried to establish a reasonable distance between myself and the car ahead. But the drivers behind wouldn't do the same and were right on my as* racing. I let 1 or 2 of them go by and then was punted off the course just before the final chicane suffering suspension damage on my outlap. I had to hit escape and barely managed to get back on the course in time to get in 1 lap.

I don't know or care who it was, it's just silly to be racing on the outlap. Your time will not improve and only bad things can happen. Nico's guidelines are just common sense. I understand the desire to keep the entire event within a bounded time, but 7 minutes is a bit tight. I've seen 10 and 20 minutes suggested above. What about a 15 minute session? Long enough to take the "must qual NOW" pressure off, short enough to keep the whole event reasonably time bounded.

 

[Steeve Fournier]

We could add a simple rule that sais that:
a) You need to leave at least 2 sec gap to car ahead before starting timed lap
b) If the car behind catch up with you on your timed lap you need to give way
c) You are not allowed to bother anyone on your outlap

I think if everyone drove by these rules the rest will sort itself

a) i'd say at least 3 sec, so if driver in front is not having his best lap there is still a margin
b) well, as Dino said, i think this wont work and might even lead to heated discussions.
c) Is it a joke?? lol

Superpole is much safer way to qualify. But i also think the guidelines that Nico is bringing us will solves many problems if everyone understand it and applies it.

What i fear: Someone's crash leads to and accident with driver behind and ruin his qual lap. As for that, i would vote for a longer qual session, i like the 15 minutes suggestion.

Steeve

 

[Alberto Casado]

That's the point with the rule, that you make sure you do not have Reik behind you (you need to let him past in the outlap).

I'm sorry but I don't see how letting the fastest drivers 'bubble up' during the outlap is more reliable than starting the outlap already sorted.

A bad case scenario:

- slow driver A goes out, tries to keep a 2 second or more with front
- sees behind (already possible that he does not realize this) a faster driver B, midpack driver
- midpack driver B would like to pass A, but he sees (another chance of him not realizing) fast driver C in his back

at this moment, contradictory options for B:
- he can slow down and let C pass, then hopefully (third chance of somebody not realizing) hope that A will do the same, otherwise we did not improve much, and then will let him pass (fourth chance)
- he can first pass A, then try to no push too much so C could pass A and B (another chance...), lets not discard that A suddenly thinks that B made a mistake and wants to be behind and re-passes (what a circus), and hopefully all ends in good in C,B,A order

Meanwhile, the same dance can be happening with cars D E and F about 2 seconds in front and G H I 2 seconds back of this troupe, and the other 12 cars. And the outlap is finishing...

And we get to what leads to the worst case scenario:

Slow driver A has behind slow driver B at about 2-3 seconds and everything looks peachy. They cruise happily towards the start line, when... fast diver C finally passes a couple cars and appears behind B, who dutifully lets him in front almost in the last turn... right behind slow A, who is in his best days 4 seconds slower than C. Then what? Must A go to almost a stand still in the main straight to let C pass? Thus forcing B (and followers) to also brake and ruin all the first lap? Or must A push knowing that he will probably disturb C?