PC1 Project Cars weight transfer

[W_Akira]

What do you think about weight transfer in PCars? Can't notice that as clear as in other titles (AC, RF2, RaceRoom, iRacing and GSC). In these games working the steering while releasing throttle or graduating the braking provides more reaction in car dynamics for me. I haven't messed with the cars setups as i'm still trying to get used with the ffb (jack xml files). Just my impression or weight transfer is not on par with tyre physics?

 

[Kyle Pearson]

IMO, Jack's FFB Tweak files kill a majority of the real driving effects by highlighting useless effects. In a given range, just like sound, only so much is going to fit. You have to make a compromise and focus on which behavior you want to dominate.

Here's some info on the per car tweakers:

• Fx scale (longitudinal forces) - Unless you use really much of this, you will mainly notice this as an added "noise" on the FFB when you hit kerbs etc. Higher amounts of Fx will make the steering wheel counter steer automatically against the slide, but will also make the steering movement on normal cornering feel heavier.
• Fy scale (lateral forces) - You feel this mainly as a force that acts against your steering movement. Very easy to use too much and over saturate the feel making the FFB feel dull.
• Fz scale (vertical forces) - Easiest to notice as a force that turns the wheel in the direction of the turning. Kind of acts as a "counter force" against Fy, so sometimes when you have too much Fy, adding a bit more of Fz can make the wheel feel lighter again while turning (a risk of saturating the FFB signal though if you just keep adding these on top of each others to compensate).
• Mz scale (twisting forces) - Allows you to feel "grip level". Loosing grip will untwist the tires rubber, so adjusting this as high as is possible without creating the "center step" will help you feel better what the car is doing.
• As a general note for all of the above (Mz, Fx, Fy, Fz), when you start to feel a distinctive FFB step/notch near the center of the wheel, you have too much of something there (or too much of all of them
  
  ). Or then you might have just a "dull feel" -> then start to go lower starting with Fy.

Also, their is the SoP (Seat of the Pants) adjustment as well which provides some of the non-steering rack forces. Just be cautious as too much of anything will drown something else out.

 

[Brandon Wright]

IMO, Jack's FFB Tweak files kill a majority of the real driving effects by highlighting useless effects. In a given range, just like sound, only so much is going to fit. You have to make a compromise and focus on which behavior you want to dominate.

Here's some info on the per car tweakers:

• Fx scale (longitudinal forces) - Unless you use really much of this, you will mainly notice this as an added "noise" on the FFB when you hit kerbs etc. Higher amounts of Fx will make the steering wheel counter steer automatically against the slide, but will also make the steering movement on normal cornering feel heavier.
• Fy scale (lateral forces) - You feel this mainly as a force that acts against your steering movement. Very easy to use too much and over saturate the feel making the FFB feel dull.
• Fz scale (vertical forces) - Easiest to notice as a force that turns the wheel in the direction of the turning. Kind of acts as a "counter force" against Fy, so sometimes when you have too much Fy, adding a bit more of Fz can make the wheel feel lighter again while turning (a risk of saturating the FFB signal though if you just keep adding these on top of each others to compensate).
• Mz scale (twisting forces) - Allows you to feel "grip level". Loosing grip will untwist the tires rubber, so adjusting this as high as is possible without creating the "center step" will help you feel better what the car is doing.
• As a general note for all of the above (Mz, Fx, Fy, Fz), when you start to feel a distinctive FFB step/notch near the center of the wheel, you have too much of something there (or too much of all of them
  
  ). Or then you might have just a "dull feel" -> then start to go lower starting with Fy.

Also, their is the SoP (Seat of the Pants) adjustment as well which provides some of the non-steering rack forces. Just be cautious as too much of anything will drown something else out.

This was very informative. If you don't mind me asking, what is the "center step"?

 

[Blkout]

IMO, Jack's FFB Tweak files kill a majority of the real driving effects by highlighting useless effects. In a given range, just like sound, only so much is going to fit. You have to make a compromise and focus on which behavior you want to dominate.

Here's some info on the per car tweakers:

• Fx scale (longitudinal forces) - Unless you use really much of this, you will mainly notice this as an added "noise" on the FFB when you hit kerbs etc. Higher amounts of Fx will make the steering wheel counter steer automatically against the slide, but will also make the steering movement on normal cornering feel heavier.
• Fy scale (lateral forces) - You feel this mainly as a force that acts against your steering movement. Very easy to use too much and over saturate the feel making the FFB feel dull.
• Fz scale (vertical forces) - Easiest to notice as a force that turns the wheel in the direction of the turning. Kind of acts as a "counter force" against Fy, so sometimes when you have too much Fy, adding a bit more of Fz can make the wheel feel lighter again while turning (a risk of saturating the FFB signal though if you just keep adding these on top of each others to compensate).
• Mz scale (twisting forces) - Allows you to feel "grip level". Loosing grip will untwist the tires rubber, so adjusting this as high as is possible without creating the "center step" will help you feel better what the car is doing.
• As a general note for all of the above (Mz, Fx, Fy, Fz), when you start to feel a distinctive FFB step/notch near the center of the wheel, you have too much of something there (or too much of all of them
  
  ). Or then you might have just a "dull feel" -> then start to go lower starting with Fy.

Also, their is the SoP (Seat of the Pants) adjustment as well which provides some of the non-steering rack forces. Just be cautious as too much of anything will drown something else out.

How dare you criticize Jack's settings. I got 5 disagree votes for doing such a dishonorable deed.

 

[Blkout]

What do you think about weight transfer in PCars? Can't notice that as clear as in other titles (AC, RF2, RaceRoom, iRacing and GSC). In these games working the steering while releasing throttle or graduating the braking provides more reaction in car dynamics for me. I haven't messed with the cars setups as i'm still trying to get used with the ffb (jack xml files). Just my impression or weight transfer is not on par with tyre physics?

One of my complaints is that I hear almost no tire squeal at all which makes it hard to find the limits of the tires until they've actually broken loose and a slide has begun. At which point I can feel the weight transfer just fine when I have to correct a slide and the car snaps back in line.

 

[Brandon Wright]

One of my complaints is that I hear almost no tire squeal at all which makes it hard to find the limits of the tires until they've actually broken loose and a slide has begun. At which point I can feel the weight transfer just fine when I have to correct a slide and the car snaps back in line.

I have this issue in R3E, which adds to the floaty feeling. It's not as bad in pCars for me, the tire squeal is there it's just not real loud.

 

[Fritz Anker]

I have to say I agree with Kyle's assessment. It does seem the files are the reaction to the "road feel" issue. It does help it, but in doing so it exaggerates the vertical forces almost comically - run a curb at Brands and watch out! While it helps the general road feel sometimes, PCars still need to figure out how to transmit the weight of the car onto the tarmac for a finished clear road feel to a wheel. It too often just feels the wheel is transmitting forces against itself and the car is floating through the circuit.

That said, I finally have been able to drive again with my buttkicker. And that is truly fantastic. The road feel comes through the seat (where it should) and is really really outstanding. Unfortunately not everyone has a transducer, and I cannot run mine too often (too loud). But when I can it is pretty darn cool.

 

[Kyle Pearson]

This was very informative. If you don't mind me asking, what is the "center step"?

The FFB near the center is purposely dampened. Without this dampening, the FFB oscillates at that point especially when the car isn't moving (fairly violently depending on the car). When increasing certain FFB levels, it can cause a pretty severe step in FFB feeling going from that center dampening to when the dampening is gone.

 

[Lou Sytsma]

IMO, Jack's FFB Tweak files kill a majority of the real driving effects by highlighting useless effects.

Thanks for your insight - I'm still playing with the FFB settings so it's great to read thoughts with differing opinions. Maybe because I'm a big fan of the RealFeel settings used in rFactor and SCE is why the FFB Tweaks work so well for me.

 

[Blkout]

The FFB near the center is purposely dampened. Without this dampening, the FFB oscillates at that point especially when the car isn't moving (fairly violently depending on the car). When increasing certain FFB levels, it can cause a pretty severe step in FFB feeling going from that center dampening to when the dampening is gone.

I have the oscillation problem in the staging lane with the Lotus 49 and the Formula B if I get too aggressive with the FFB settings using a CSW v2. Only these two cars though.

 

[Kyle Pearson]

I have the oscillation problem in the staging lane with the Lotus 49 and the Formula B if I get too aggressive with the FFB settings using a CSW v2. Only these two cars though.

Those were two of the worst. Are you using Jack's files?

 

[Blkout]

Those were two of the worst. Are you using Jack's files?

No, tried them but it only makes it worse.

 

[RaceNut]

Pcars and Dirt Rally do a great job of providing clean signals for suspension data to SimCommander/SimVibe. That translates to some great feedback through transducers and the AccuForce. I only wish more games could do that although, iRacing does awesome there too.

I tested some of Jack's recommended settings and I was pretty happy with the results although, I still prefer the greater detail I get through SC4. Other wheels should benefit with Jack's tweaker settings and be able to get a good baseline to work from. Jack's settings probably should have been the default FFB settings to begin with; it would have saved people a lot of time.

 

[Brandon Wright]

I tried Jack's settings and both sets took away almost all weight from my wheel. I copied the FFB folder into the pCars folder, that's all you have to do, right?

 

[Blkout]

I tried Jack's settings and both sets took away almost all weight from my wheel. I copied the FFB folder into the pCars folder, that's all you have to do, right?

And this...

Global FFB settings: FFB = 100, Tire Force = 100 -> Very important, FFB ALWAYS at 100 any wheel!

Force Feedback Calibration Page:

Relative Adjust Gain 1.10 (1.00 okay also)
Relative Adjust Bleed 0.10
Relative Adjust Clamp 0.95

http://www.racedepartment.com/threa...ble-for-enhanced-feel-from-jack-spade.105453/

 

[bmanic]

To respond to the original topic at hand, here's my view:

If there is one single area where Project CARS is a bit weak it is indeed weight transfer. I'm not sure what kind of system SMS uses but compared to all the other highly complex models (tire model, heating model with proper heat transfer from breaks, volumetric throttle and exceptionally complex engine and turbo models) I feel like the dampers are a bit simplistic somehow. It's like they are the most simplified, basic look-up-table type of affair in the whole system.

Don't get me wrong though, even tiny suspension and damper tweaks make an immediate and very obvious difference to how the car drives (more so than in any other sim in my opinion) but I suspect this is due to the awesome tire model. I don't feel like there is enough "fidelity" somehow of the suspension.

Partly it is also down to their animation system so it's a visual thing as well.. the way the cockpit moves is not on par with for instance Assetto Corsa (which is completely class leading in this regard. No other simulator feels so "real" in the way the cockpit moves when inside the car, in my opinion. It is in such a class of it's own here that it isn't even funny. Worst would be iRacing in my opinion which is just very weird and I've never been happy with it).

These are areas I hope they improve over time or perhaps for the inevitable sequel (pCars has been selling really well it seems).

It's also interesting how some of the responses on the forum have been that suspension systems are relatively easy to calculate and pretty straight forward physics while Kazunori Yamauchi has specifically said that modeling dampers properly is one of the hardest things to do, on par with tire modeling (though this I feel is a bit of an overstatement). You really need to model the fluids and resistance of the holes and how that whole system works when it heats up and is being worked. Probably it's a bit like electronics.. you can easily make a simplistic analogue filter model in digital but compare the two side by side, the real thing and the simplistic model and they sound absolutely nothing alike. Even though they should be the same on paper.

So yeah, I think SMS is taking the easy way around the suspension (more specifically the dampers) system. They are also not modeling chassis flex which is probably the main reason the karts are a bit wonky. According to some of the devs there the chassis flex shouldn't have a large impact on rigid body race cars and that may be true but for ordinary sunday cruisers / cars that people actually own it makes a real difference. Hopefully they'll model this at some point.

 

[Sean Kenney]

I have this issue in R3E, which adds to the floaty feeling. It's not as bad in pCars for me, the tire squeal is there it's just not real loud.

Really? In r3e You can raise the volume of that specific audio channel so you cant miss it.

 

[JoelGL]

@Kyle Pearson , can you perhaps share your FFB files, or at least those you've modified? Might be useful for us not too versed enough to adjust these parameters well enough.

 

[Brandon Wright]

And this...

Global FFB settings: FFB = 100, Tire Force = 100 -> Very important, FFB ALWAYS at 100 any wheel!

Force Feedback Calibration Page:

Relative Adjust Gain 1.10 (1.00 okay also)
Relative Adjust Bleed 0.10
Relative Adjust Clamp 0.95

http://www.racedepartment.com/threa...ble-for-enhanced-feel-from-jack-spade.105453/

My FFB and Tire Force are always at 100. I didn't mess with the other three, I can't see them making much difference because the wheel was so incredibly light and lifeless. I'll try it though. I even cranked the master spindle up near 200 and there was still virtually no weight to the wheel and all the bumps and vibrations were really watered down. Not sure if it's a problem with my wheel, or PC, or what.

Really? In r3e You can raise the volume of that specific audio channel so you cant miss it.

Yeah, I know. I have all the sounds sliders down around 10 or 20 and the tire scrub at 100 and it makes no difference. The scrubbing sounds comes in too late, basically after you've started to spin, and there is no protesting from the tires when you're leaning on them hard in a turn to let you know you're approaching the limit. Makes for a disconnected feeling, one of the reasons that game is collecting dust in my library, sadly.

 

[Sean Kenney]

My FFB and Tire Force are always at 100. I didn't mess with the other three, I can't see them making much difference because the wheel was so incredibly light and lifeless. I'll try it though. I even cranked the master spindle up near 200 and there was still virtually no weight to the wheel and all the bumps and vibrations were really watered down. Not sure if it's a problem with my wheel, or PC, or what.



Yeah, I know. I have all the sounds sliders down around 10 or 20 and the tire scrub at 100 and it makes no difference. The scrubbing sounds comes in too late, basically after you've started to spin, and there is no protesting from the tires when you're leaning on them hard in a turn to let you know you're approaching the limit. Makes for a disconnected feeling, one of the reasons that game is collecting dust in my library, sadly.

Odd, works well for me...bugs I guess. unfortunate