Possible budget tactile amp with dsp?

[benjamd]

Hey all,

Recently getting into sim racing, but am on a budget, so am running a playseat challenge as my 'rig', with a t300rs. I'd like a little more tactile feedback so am investigating tactile options.

im currently considering 4x Dayton DAEX32EP two of which mounted direct to the brake and throttle pedals and two mounted on the back of the seat pressed up against the fabric with some hard plastic plates. Also thinking to add 2x Dayton BST-2 mounted on the tubes on the sides of the playseat challenge for the lower frequency effects (10-80hz).

This feels like it would give me a pretty reasonable range of frequencies and positions for around $140.

To run these I'm considering a generic 7.1 external usb sound card (Vantec)

Finally I need amplifiers, which is the main topic of this post.

I initially considered the super budget amps found on amazon and ebay, obviously super basic, but likely workable for the small bst-2 and exciters and only around 15$ for 2 channels.

But then I found the Dayton DSPB-250. This little board gives you 2x 50w output and has a dsp chip that can be custom programmed in Sigma Studio. It does require an additional programmer board, but together this costs around 50$.

This seems like it might be a great option for an expandable budget setup? After getting the 20$ programmer it's only 35$ for 2x dsp capable channels at 50w 4ohms.

The software isn't super friendly but likely some generic settings could be shared in the community for common exciters/thrusters.

So I guess my question becomes is it worth using DSP on the common exciters like DAEX32ep and budget shakers like the BST-2 or BST-1 or even the super budget TT25?

 

[stigs2cousin]

I strongly recommend the exciters on the pedals, its a godsend to feel wheelslip and wheellock.

I´m not so shure about two exciters on the seatback( but havn´t tried it myself)

I have an Dayton puck in the seatrest for RPMs ( mostly as a"shift buzzer") and an
Aurasound AST-2B-4 under the seat for roadvibration/impact.
Both bassshakers in the seat conway the clunk for gearshift.

In the seat vibration is nice to have, the gamechanger was the wheelslip information on the pedals.

At the moment the power is coming from two audio amps I already had, in planing for this month is a
https://www.thomann.de/de/the_t.racks_dsp_4x4_mini_amp.htm?sid=41c2b7c978cb20e95a9e218da1888755

which is out of your budget, but I want to race and not fiddle around.

If fiddling is part of your hobby it´s fine to use the DIY aproach. I´m not that electronically enclined and want to come as close as possible to plugandplay.

MFG Carsten

 

[blekenbleu]

is it worth using DSP on the common exciters like DAEX32ep and budget shakers like the BST-2 or BST-1 or even the super budget TT25?

My guess is NOT for DAEX32ep and TT25 (having employed DSP only for their measurements, not excitations):

• DSP typically implies forcing exciters to do something that they cannot "naturally" accomplish, although it can be deployed for protecting transducers from energy they cannot efficiently handle. SimHub provides control to distribute power over frequencies that are transducer-appropriate.
• DAEX32ep and budget shakers have relatively limited dynamic and useful tactile frequency ranges; driving them beyond their unequalized limits can provoke overheating and destruction (done that).
• An exception would be driving e.g. DAEX32ep and BST-1 from a single relatively broadband SimHub channel, then applying DSP e.g. to protect DAEX32ep from lower frequency energy that would be handled by the BST-1

two mounted on the back of the seat

I use seatback exciters to signal trailing throttle oversteer.
With transducers are installed so that they can be distinguished by sensation localization, one learns to associate stimulated locations with different simulated physics.
DSP is more about orchestrating multiple transducers over frequencies, instead of or in addition to locations, and is arguably analogous to adding subwoofers and/or super tweeters to audio systems.

I have no experience with BST-1 or -2, but my expectation (based on many years of audio tweaking) is that BST-1 response much below its 30Hz resonance will not be strong.

Back to amplifiers: I have good experience with older (pre-HDMI) Denon 7.1 receivers, which can be found with over 50 Watts x 6 channels at e.g. yard sales for < US$100.

 

[Ruttman98]

Hey all,

Recently getting into sim racing, but am on a budget, so am running a playseat challenge as my 'rig', with a t300rs. I'd like a little more tactile feedback so am investigating tactile options.

im currently considering 4x Dayton DAEX32EP two of which mounted direct to the brake and throttle pedals and two mounted on the back of the seat pressed up against the fabric with some hard plastic plates. Also thinking to add 2x Dayton BST-2 mounted on the tubes on the sides of the playseat challenge for the lower frequency effects (10-80hz).

This feels like it would give me a pretty reasonable range of frequencies and positions for around $140.

To run these I'm considering a generic 7.1 external usb sound card (Vantec)

Finally I need amplifiers, which is the main topic of this post.

I initially considered the super budget amps found on amazon and ebay, obviously super basic, but likely workable for the small bst-2 and exciters and only around 15$ for 2 channels.

But then I found the Dayton DSPB-250. This little board gives you 2x 50w output and has a dsp chip that can be custom programmed in Sigma Studio. It does require an additional programmer board, but together this costs around 50$.

This seems like it might be a great option for an expandable budget setup? After getting the 20$ programmer it's only 35$ for 2x dsp capable channels at 50w 4ohms.

The software isn't super friendly but likely some generic settings could be shared in the community for common exciters/thrusters.

So I guess my question becomes is it worth using DSP on the common exciters like DAEX32ep and budget shakers like the BST-2 or BST-1 or even the super budget TT25?

Did you mean to link to the Dayton DSPB-250?:

Home

Dayton Audio DSPB-250 2x50W Class D Audio Amplifier Board with DSPHigh Quality Audio PerformanceThe Dayton Audio DSPB-250 DSP Amplifier Board delivers high quality sound without drawing a lot power. This is due to the highly efficient TPA3116 Class D amplifier chip. The TPA3116 operates at 88%...

www.parts-express.com

Rather than the non-name brand boards on Amazon?

Intriguing possibilities for entry level DSP control. Please keep us posted.

 

[benjamd]

Did you mean to link to the Dayton DSPB-250?:

Yes indeed, thats what I get for posting from my mobile!

• DSP typically implies forcing exciters to do something that they cannot "naturally" accomplish, although it can be deployed for protecting transducers from energy they cannot efficiently handle. SimHub provides control to distribute power over frequencies that are transducer-appropriate.

This is good to know, from reading the other threads I had assumed DSP was required to filter the higher frequencies on the exciters to prevent audio tones leaking through in the higher ranges. But if SimHub has that capability and isn't generating extraneous frequencies then I guess DSP really does only matter for boosting energy in lower frequency transducers?

I have no experience with BST-1 or -2, but my expectation (based on many years of audio tweaking) is that BST-1 response much below its 30Hz resonance will not be strong.

My hope is that on the extremely light Playseat Challenge frame, even a little energy in the < 30hz range will be felt clearly.

From reading the various threads here it seems like trying to get both location separation and frequency range coverage across the exciter/transducer pairs seems like it provides the best capability for a variety of effects.

I had assumed DSP was necessary to help improve the low-end of the transducers and prevent excitation of specific frequencies causing pang and unpleasant resonance in the frame. But from the your feedback @blekenbleu I'm wondering now if this isn't really an issue on the lower-end devices?

 

[blekenbleu]

I guess DSP really does only matter for boosting energy in lower frequency transducers?

Boosting frequencies should be a lower priority, since it risks overheating; reducing (resonant) peak frequencies (some of which provoke pang) is a higher priority. Since SimHub is not generating pure sinusoids, there are harmonics, some of which may be audible. Even if SimHub generated only pure tones, transducer nonlinearities would also provoke overtones, but in my relatively limited (compared to e.g. @Mr Latte) experience, non-SimHub DSP has not been useful for only low end exciters and pucks fastened directly to e.g. pedals, seat frames and cushions. In fact, I tune SimHub to deliberately provoke audible output from ShakeSeat pucks to simulate tire squeal. If you have read much of his threads, you may note how few users provide feedback or alternative tunings for @Mr Latte's profiles; tuning DSP can be tricky.

Bottom line: low end Dayton exciters and pucks may be driven to "pang", but they are also liable to destructive overheating if driven with that much power at other frequencies.

As explored in this thread, these smaller transducers lack power and momentum to deliver substantial low frequency stimulation into massive rigid structures (such as 80/20 sim cockpits); once response drops 10dB from that at 100Hz (nominal frequency above with audibility dominates), compensation is neither safe nor practical. On the other hand, when used in conjunction with those larger bass shakers, others report DSP after SimHub being useful.

 

[blekenbleu]

From reading the various threads here it seems like trying to get both location separation and frequency range coverage across the exciter/transducer pairs seems like it provides the best capability for a variety of effects.

Yes, your relatively light chassis and a combination of judiciously applied exciters and shakers could produce more interesting effects and indeed benefit from DSP acting as crossovers among shakers and exciters driven from a single SimHub channel.

 

[SpeedyBanana]

Just an FYI, this is what I have on the way, which may be close to what you are looking for with Bass & Treble, it's almost the same as the popular Fosi BT20A (which includes power supply), but without full enclosure & total saves me about $23 per pair of shakers.

Fosi Audio ZK1002T Bluetooth Treble and Bass Adjustment Subwoofer Amplifier Board Channel Power Audio Stereo Bass AMP

Fosi Audio ZK-1002T Bluetooth Treble and Bass Adjustment Subwoofer Amplifier Board Channel High Power Audio Stereo Bass AMP

fosiaudio.com

The above amp is without power supply. I ordered this one due to my 50W Aura each shakers: https://fosiaudio.com/products/24v-...3116-tas5613-amplifier?variant=32766807375956

Fosi has other size power supplies. You want at least a little more power leeway than specs require.
Here's another which is a 90W supply:
https://fosiaudio.com/products/19v-...class-d-amplifier?_pos=1&_sid=ad5d3003d&_ss=r

 

[mechsicko]

I'm continually impressed with how much punch this little Class-D is I use for my simple tactile setup. No DSP though.. missed that part initially. It's model G2 from Nobsound... *100w one with a deafeatable adjustable crossover to run a miniLFE then later a Clark. https://www.amazon.com/Nobsound-Sub...r/dp/B07MR6YCQ1/ref=psdc_537344_t4_B08D6G9CB7 I'm just using it caveman style running my tactile like a subwoofer after really disliking how Simhub sounded/felt no matter what settings I used (or amp or driver). Gonna try SRS's software at some point though.

They have a whole range of mono, stereo, 2.1 etc amps. I hooked it to a set of decent stereo speakers (Ohm Walsh 2xo) to see how it sounds as a normal amp and was surprised yet again... as it's something I'm actually picky about.

*stock psu is actually 90w but will accept larger for full output and most of their amps come with undersized psu which is annoying but they're still cheap and amazing.. I still use the stock psu and it's more than enough to mechanically clip the piston if you turn it up

 

[stigs2cousin]

update:

the T.Rack amp didn´t happen.
partially because of the hint (@blekenbleu) that a DSP wouldn´t be helpfull with a budget exciter lineup, but for the most part because i got lucky and scored an used Yamaha RX-V795a for 20€.

This quite powerfull 5.1 receiver has strengthend my setup considerably. Even to the point that my next door neighbor come knocking and asked:" if i was doing something with bass"

So i had to turn the shakers down and now I´m reseaching isolation possiblities.
As f... covid has made quite a dent into my income i can´t go all out but on the other hand I don´t want to miss the tactile feedback that my setup delivers.

to be continued...

MFG Carsten

 

[stigs2cousin]

Continuation:

I´ve cut a thin (6mm) rubber anti vibration mat I had lying around into stripes and put them 4 thick under the wood beams that are the feet of my DIY aluminium rig.
After that i I dialled the amp back up, but not as powerfull as before.
Tactile feedback is enough for me, havn´t seen my neighbor since

MFG Carsten