Physics right or wrong?

[Frederic Schornstein]

Disclaimer:
First of all please don't make that a fanboy discussion. I always try to be objective and leave my personal preferences out of the way. I am always willing to accept, if something I don't like on emotional basis, is better than what I like on emotional basis.

Ok I hope I covered that part and this won't get into a "You are a fanboy of this and that thread".

Prequal:
Like most people I eagerly awaited the release of Assetto Corsa. I read about all the licensed content, loved the screenshots and everything. I didn't drive the tech preview, because I didn't want to get a false impression, because it was all still WIP. The day AC was released on Steam I bought it.
I started really testing it after the first update were the FFB was fixed.

I do really like the game and wanted it to be good and so far my only issue are the physics. Most people praise them and they get a lot of love and I do confess, that in external videos they look great.
The car dives in on the braking, you see all the weight transfer and everything. No other sim offers that!

Example:
But as soon as I drive it, it feels just so wrong to me. Just one example: I tested the BMW Z4 GT3 at Monza. I know the track very well and usually drive GT cars, so a perfect combination for me.
Despite all the massive understeer you get everywhere in AC even with setup tweaks, I wanted to point out something you can judge on a much more objective level. So I will talk about the braking distance.

Every racer knows how hard the first braking zone in Monza is. You have a low downforce car and arrive at 260+ kph and have to break down to 60-80kph. So if you look at a lot of GT3 onboards on youtube even with cars, that do have ABS and are a bit restricted due to BOP. They all break before the 200meter board.
That said, I can brake at the 300meter (270kph) board and have the car at a total stand still at 150meters. If I brake for the corner I can brake at or after the 150 meter board.
So we already have a 25% shorter braking zone compared to a real life car with equal or less power and ABS, which I didn't use.

Test conditions:
So now people would start arguing, that I maybe run more downforce and stuff and that is the weirdest thing. I tried to figure out the "worst" braking performance. I used hard tyres and removed all the downforce from the car for this test.

I don't want to get to much into the details of the cornering behaviour and the understeer and that you can just pull on tons of lock and don't get any turn-in oversteer.

Is my opinion qualified?!:
A lot of simracers don't have a lot of reallife experience and I didn't race a GT3 car in my life, but just a quick background:

I drove Race07, rFactor1 and now rFactor2 and I am a pretty good driver in rF2 especially in rear wheel drive touring or GT cars. Even in the new Civic I was racing for wins after 30mins on an unkonw track, so I can quickly adapt to new cars and tracks etc.

In my free time I did some kart races with friends and even on an unkown track with for me unkonw more powerful karts than the average rental karts on a bit cold track I got within 1,9 seconds of the track record within 15min and reduced it to 1,5 seconds in a further 15min.
Keeping in mind that real professional Kart drivers practice their and I had maybe 2 or 3 hours track time in karts ever, I would say I am not a bad driver.

So when I jump out of rF2 into a kart it just feels like home. I apply nearly the same technique and everything. When I jump into AC it all feels wrong. It is so hard to get wheelspin. You can turn the wheel so much, that you would end up in a wall in real life.

I also spoke to some guys with actual racing experience and they got the same feeling.

The end:
I really wanted AC to be a very good sim and I do love everything about it, but these physics keep me from driving it.
In a sim I don't want it to be easy, I want it to be as realistic as possible, but in AC you can apply some really bad driving technique to get quicker laptimes.

 

[Tamás Fóth]

......
TLDR OP the physics aren't wrong, you just suck.

Can't wait until online is released and all of these people slamming the physics get exposed for being awful racers.

Of course the car is going to have an abundance of grip when you're 10 seconds off pace. It's not because the game is "arcade", it's because you're simply not driving the car hard enough.

A while back I had the track record on Imola in the GT2 BMW, and would read on the steam forums about people complaining the car had too much grip. Upon watching some of their YoutTube laps, I found that in some corners, I was two gears higher than what the "whiners" were at. Some guys were getting on the brakes for Tamburello a full three car lengths before I was, 20kmh off-pace.

People were saying the car was total garbage, and here I am trying to shave a tenth off with the car pretty much doing everything in its power to kill me; the supersoft tyres evaporating after three laps.

I don't have a lot of legal or organized racing experience, but I can tell you straight up that AC is one of the few sims I have on my PC where it makes total sense to drive.

TLDR OP the physics aren't wrong, you just suck.

Are you challenging him, in your very sophisticated way?

 

[Andrew Ford]

Conclusion
All of the above is not meant to be a hallelulah for AC, as I also do feel there are improvements than can be made. But what I do say is this: based on current available facts, professional driver comments, and logic, the AC approach of 'driving a GT car is easy, until you get to the limit', is finally a great step that has been made in simracing.

interesting read requiem84 (sorry I don't know your real name). Thanks for the extended post (i had to shorten it).
What are the improvements that you feel should be made. i.e. what aren't you happy with in ac?

 

[Andrew Ford]

Jeez, the braking distance was already discussed like months ago.

Was that in post #7034 of thread 3920?

 

[William Levesque]

I know I should have said "inb4 trollbait" sooner...

 

[Andrew Ford]

So you can't handle a couple of people disagreeing to what you say, so you decide to turn into a troll and just spamming the forum with dislikes like a petulant child?

it works both ways? the dislike button is there and you used it. why should i not? especially as you are trolling my posts and accusing me of trolling. like i said, maybe we should agree to disagree that would be mature right? p.s. you were up to 9 dislikes on my posts.

 

[Fabrizio Corona]

The sore loser above started to dislike my (older, unrelated) posts too for some reason...is it puberty hitting you hard ?

 

[RustyDriver00]

I apologise in advance for this rant (not all directed at OP) but I am so sick to death of threads like this! So sorry this may not be forum etiquette and i may get flamed by I can't take it anymore

Seriously saying you don't think the physics feel right because they are different to sim x y z and you once went go karting is absurd. How the hell do you know the other sim has it right? what because 14 year olds with no licence and no life say so?!?! And comparing a go kart to a gt3 car I really dont think i need to address except to say that it is a weak ass argument as to why you feel the game doesn't feel right, get a licence and an actual real car and hit up a track day in anger and then you might have a slightly better comparison although still lacking.

Now to address the general haters - I have 2 points

1 - it's too easy so its ****, come on really? You people I can't stand the most, I usually assume you are too young to have a licence and are basing driving a car in real life will be something like GPL, scares the **** out of me as to what will happen the first time you drive a real car and realise it doesn't swerve all over the place when you brake! Morons seriously!

Unless you are within a couple of tenths of the fastest times you have no right to call the game too easy you fools!


2 - If you don't like it, don't play it! Or in stronger words **** OFF back to whatever sim you prefer, we dont need you or want you, if like rf2 good for you go talk to other rf2 fans nothing wrong with that, just don't think that this gives you the right to criticise AC just because it different.

And yes i am a AC fanboy I think its great and I really hope it doesn't get messed up by people complaining when they don't have a clue!

So to end rant, in the words of Rowdy burns "Kunos, The shocks are right, we're dialled in.Don't change a thing!

 

[Kristóf Kerekes]

I'm too sad you can only give 1 positive rating on a post in this forum. The one above me deserves all of the positive ratings from my POV. So sorry, but this time you only get an Agree from me ^^

 

[Andrew Ford]

I apologise in advance for this rant (not all directed at OP) but I am so sick to death of threads like this! So sorry this may not be forum etiquette and i may get flamed by I can't take it anymore

Seriously saying you don't think the physics feel right because they are different to sim x y z and you once went go karting is absurd. How the hell do you know the other sim has it right? what because 14 year olds with no licence and no life say so?!?! And comparing a go kart to a gt3 car I really dont think i need to address except to say that it is a weak ass argument as to why you feel the game doesn't feel right, get a licence and an actual real car and hit up a track day in anger and then you might have a slightly better comparison although still lacking.

Now to address the general haters - I have 2 points

1 - it's too easy so its ****, come on really? You people I can't stand the most, I usually assume you are too young to have a licence and are basing driving a car in real life will be something like GPL, scares the **** out of me as to what will happen the first time you drive a real car and realise it doesn't swerve all over the place when you brake! Morons seriously!

Unless you are within a couple of tenths of the fastest times you have no right to call the game too easy you fools!


2 - If you don't like it, don't play it! Or in stronger words **** OFF back to whatever sim you prefer, we dont need you or want you, if like rf2 good for you go talk to other rf2 fans nothing wrong with that, just don't think that this gives you the right to criticise AC just because it different.

And yes i am a AC fanboy I think its great and I really hope it doesn't get messed up by people complaining when they don't have a clue!

So to end rant, in the words of Rowdy burns "Kunos, The shocks are right, we're dialled in.Don't change a thing!

You aren't trying to advocate a dictatorship on a forum are you? Seriously? Come on! The op expressed a few concerns respectfully and asked any pros could come on and explain their views to review his opinion. In return, I see a number of posts mocking and slating him. The same with me.lots of dislikes from people who don't like it when people dislike their views. I'm going to say this again... I have rfactor 2 and assetto corsa. I like both. It doesn't mean that either is perfect or developers should or will accept they have reached perfection in the development phase...or why would they commit for five years plus? Sadly the responses of self professed fanboys ^ .(only quoting!) usually go along the lines of "if you don't think it's perfect, go play rfactor 2!" To which I will say again.."I do play rfactor 2...but I also play ac...I just don't think either is perfect". The fanboys often refer to others as trolls or expletives which of course earns them likes etc...but not much credibility. So whilst they say that the op is wasting his time and this or that...ask yourself this..."do you think the op has really found use in your comment? If you are a fanboy, have you done anything to carefully reassure the op that your view carries substance without saying misleading phrases such as "most people"?" If not, why post? P.s I'm fed up of people saying "sorry but...". Then why say it?

 

[DewCrew88]

The end:
I really wanted AC to be a very good sim and I do love everything about it, but these physics keep me from driving it.
In a sim I don't want it to be easy, I want it to be as realistic as possible, but in AC you can apply some really bad driving technique to get quicker laptimes.

Harder ≠ More Realistic

Most of us feel the exact opposite of what you feel. Most other sims require unrealistic techniques to get fast laps other than AC. The only area I would agree on at the current time is that we can use up the brakes corner after corner but I know we are getting brake fade at some point to remedy that.

Please dont listen to guys who want harder for the sake of being hard Kunos. Keep it real like it currently is.

 

[Kristóf Kerekes]

I see the Disagree/Dislike wagon has reached me aswell, on which I'm not gonna hop onto as it will hurt my ratings more than your thousands of ratings so there's no point of continuing that.

I don't see a problem of people saying their opinion, not even on public forums. But the OP presented all of his statements are the unquestionable truth, whilist covering his absurd points with a few laps in a Kart.... I'm not sure how decent racer he is, I'm not stalking people on RSR Live Timing, I'd rather only care about my own performance on that matter. The number in front of my name is the thing that matters for me on a leaderboard. The experience is though, that most of these posts come from people who are far off pace and drive completely wrong, and have no whatsoever experience in either real-life or even the simulator world.

Making up that post and building all the facts on the few laps in a random Kart is giving me the same feeling when I read somebody's post about comparing GT5 and AC physics and sounds in a well-formed post, where GT5 came out better. You probably have to be at least deaf to get that result and ignore the driving part of GT5.

The same stuff is happening here, in my opinion.

 

[Bernd Graf]

Just for the record, the Ferrari is braking way before the 200m mark, the Porsche a little before the 150 at first, then around 200 ,

Uh...are you and I watching the same video? The Ferrari is braking AFTER the 200M mark, maybe not by much but he is braking after it!

 

[Rhys Gardiner]

The op expressed a few concerns respectfully and asked any pros could come on and explain their views to review his opinion. In return, I see a number of posts mocking and slating him.

While I disagree with Frederic (OP) on the physics of AC, I have to say this is also true. Frederic was trying to start a healthy discussion and was genuinely seeking opinions, and in comes nearly everyone else in this thread with bleeding heart, tear-the-man-down, HOW DARE YOU, you-suck-for-even-slightly-speaking-against-AC verbal abuse! People are reading things into his posts that simply aren't there, and are seemingly incapable of getting their own opinions across without being crude and disrespectful.

I love AC just as much as the next sim racer, it's the sim that the majority of the community have been waiting for and I think it's the best driving sim ever made. But I end up having more respect for Frederic than anyone else after reading through this thread. At least his posts are thoughtful and he is holding himself accountable for what he says.

All round bad attitudes in this thread. Very disappointing, I know discourse on RD to be better than this.

 

[Bernd Graf]

Shawn needs to get a life, haha. Little is worth getting that angry over

 

[vee10]

To the O.P i refer you to this post i made when AC came out.

http://www.racedepartment.com/forum...comments-from-sim-newbies.77688/#post-1574027

Think that explains how good the physics are in AC.

 

[Peter Kerényi]

I guess it must be something with your config. AC gives the best feel of the car from all sims. That is why I can't drive in iRacing anymore. I just can't feel ****. Race 07 is worse then AC in that regard but still much better then iRacing. Are you using the recommended settings for your steering wheel? Cause it changes things a lot.

Yep, everything is set up, I'm pretty much used to it, just the fact my dad always complained that he misses the feel of the car in every sim. I didn't have that feeling, not until AC. Which is good, the driving is more natural, instinctive, and it's harder for the brain to distinguish it from real life experiences.
I tried iR for a few months, I even won a race in the MX-5, but it was hell, the car behaved so unnaturally, like it had no grip at all. I liked the graphics, tracks, online structure, but the driving and price made me give up on that game.

 

[RustyDriver00]

Shawn needs to get a life, haha. Little is worth getting that angry over

Hahaha I know it seems petty to get so fired up about something so minor, and in all honesty of no effect on me. The OP probably coped more then he deserved, the reason behind the rant is more to do with the fact that every other day a thread like this is made, and it seriously starts to get to me. Kunos has produced a fantastic game and it just pisses me off that people are complaning about it because they find it different to some other sim.

 

[Michael Hornbuckle]

EDIT: Nothing offensive now

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

While I disagree with Frederic (OP) on the physics of AC, I have to say this is also true. Frederic was trying to start a healthy discussion and was genuinely seeking opinions, and in comes nearly everyone else in this thread with bleeding heart, tear-the-man-down, HOW DARE YOU, you-suck-for-even-slightly-speaking-against-AC verbal abuse! People are reading things into his posts that simply aren't there, and are seemingly incapable of getting their own opinions across without being crude and disrespectful.

I love AC just as much as the next sim racer, it's the sim that the majority of the community have been waiting for and I think it's the best driving sim ever made. But I end up having more respect for Frederic than anyone else after reading through this thread. At least his posts are thoughtful and he is holding himself accountable for what he says.

All round bad attitudes in this thread. Very disappointing, I know discourse on RD to be better than this.

Thank you very much. Some of the few people who understood whar was my intention.

To basically cut it down to the base reason was: I can win kart races on diffrent tracks (even outdoor tracks with proper grip) and in diffrent karts, I am properly fast on every track and in every car in rF2, but I cant get my head around some of the feel in AC.

So I never said AC is wrong. I just wanted qualified answers from people who drove rF2 and AC plus have real life experience.
Even if pro GT racers say it is shockingly good the comparison to rF2 is missing.
If you drive AC with proper GT technique it feels very good, but you can push more in an unnatural way, which most race drivers don't do.

But still I have tge biggest respect for the drivers and if you drive it proprrly the physics are good, but at the moment at least you dont get penalised for rubbish driving techniques, that I saw some fasr people apply.

P.S. Some people who only posted in the AC forum with their account are disliking without commenting. I am searching for valid oppinions from qualified people not from fanboys. So far we have found a few of them and it brings me to get deeper into ACs physics so this thread should be liked by every proper simracer, because it contains true pro driver opinions on a sim and not F1 2013 PR statements from F1 drivers...

P.P.S. I never said, that what I said is the truth it is only my personal limited experience in racing and simracing, which does not have apply to real world GT racing. If your experience is better than provide some information, but dont try to discredit me

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

Did we ever discover what these really bad driving techniques are? And where are you on the RSR leaderboards? If you can run these great laptimes and make the blanket statement of how easy it is to drive I would really like some kind of proof that you know what you are talking about.

I find it odd that you didn't try the TP because it was a WIP yet you bought AC day 1 even though it is in early access and is a WIP.



I could state that every driver in the F1 paddock thinks AC is a great training tool but without a link it is just hearsay and holds no water at all.

I can show you videos about the technique if you like

As I haven't driven AC that much you wont find me on the leaderboard. I soent most of my time tweaking and testing it. If you would have driven rF2 here you probably would know me...

He is taking about @Matt Sentell who has driven the Skip Barber a lot at Limerock and stated, that it is very very accurate in rF2 and he is even quicker than me and has tge same probkems with AC.

So I hope I covered your questions. I will post videos later.