Physics origins for gMotor, ride height, suspension geometry and other questions

Kyuubeey

@Simberia
What does adjusting the "ride height" do? Does it deflect the spring and damper more or less, or does it "attach the suspension lower or higher"? Do the arm angles change when adjusting ride height? Why does the wheel orientation not change?

Where is ride height referenced from? If I have it 0, what does that mean? The center of the axle is at ground level?

How do I determine my design height for the geometry? I can't work out when my arms in-game are in the same orientations as in the .pm file.

Where are bumpstops/packers referenced from? If I have it 0, what does that mean? I impact the implement when the "ride height" is 0? So for example, with a ride height of 0.100, -0.000 and -0.200 for bump and rebound means 100mm travel in both directions?

What is the origin point for the .pm file? Docs suggest ground level, centered with wheelbase and track. Can the origin point for pickups be changed? For example changing the wheel origin points to be from the wheel center instead.

Why do some mods have inertia for the BODY? Is the .hdv not supposed to store the total car inertia and unsprung inertia in .pm determines the sprung mass inertia?

Thanks!
 
I think there are too many questions in one post to answer them properly :)
Not really, but I did write a guide for AC because I was tired of answering stuff like this all the time. :roflmao:

To add one more question in case someone does read this:

What's up with the tires? I can get a reasonable-ish steady-state, but the car catastrophically fails in combined grip situations. It's like there is negative combined grip. Niels' tires do it too. My kinematics are not at fault, it happens on any car that's not incredibly front stiffness biased. My load curve is fine according to telemetry. Slip parameters make no difference, and I zeroed out heat and pressure sensitivity and so on. The car theoretically correlates closely to AC in tire loads and roll; it just oversteers like mad.

Also, all tires are incredibly twitchy near center, but that might just be because ISImotor has no relax length. It does feel like my slip peaks are off though, but it happens on Niels tires too, and every mod...


Thanks, I did read that. Although a lot of the documentation is not factual sadly and doesn't really answer some of the questions so I had to figure a bunch of it out via testing. Not 100% sure though so it'd be nice to get an answer from someone who's made an accurate car into ISI and knows how it really works. These old posts have a bunch of conflicting info and stuff that just seems plain wrong.
 
It'd be nice to get an answer from someone who's made an accurate car into ISI and knows how it really works.
I personally know nothing lol. BUT... as soon as I read this, I thought of one person instantly, especially since your questions are highly detail-oriented and you posted this in the AMS1 forum...

Niels Heusinkveld, the physics wizard himself. Perhaps you should DM him, or contact him some other way? He would have answers to your questions, no doubt. IIRC he goes by 'Niels_at_home' here on RD.
 
I personally know nothing lol. BUT... as soon as I read this, I thought of one person instantly, especially since your questions are highly detail-oriented and you posted this in the AMS1 forum...

Niels Heusinkveld, the physics wizard himself. Perhaps you should DM him, or contact him some other way? He would have answers to your questions, no doubt. IIRC he goes by 'Niels_at_home' here on RD.
Yeah, I think that will be what I need to do.

I'll first confirm if I'm not just inputting things horribly wrongly, but apart from that I should just ask Niels. He claims to have correlated accurate cars for professional use with ISImotor, so I'm inclined to think I'm just doing something really wrongly. Can't understand what that could be, though.
 
I'm inclined to think I'm just doing something really wrongly. Can't understand what that could be, though.
Again, I'm nothing but a bystander, but even to me it's apparent that different physics engines have fundamentally different ways of doing things, but regardless eventually can be tweaked to give plausible behaviour with sufficient expertise and parameter knowledge. Your experience is with AC, where you've clearly worked out the "tricks of the trade"! :) Whereas Niels and others have figured out those tricks in ISI/gMotor/whatever physics over the years. Judging by Niels' love for spreadsheets and Visual Basic (I think?) scripts I've seen him show off on his YouTube channel, it appears he's assembled a personal toolkit not unlike what you've released for AC (which I hadn't seen before today, amazing job sharing that with the community by the way!).
 
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Again, I'm nothing but a bystander, but even to me it's apparent that different physics engines have fundamentally different ways of doing things, but regardless eventually can be tweaked to give plausible behaviour with sufficient expertise and parameter knowledge. Your experience is with AC, where you've clearly worked out the "tricks of the trade"! :) Whereas Niels and others have figured out those tricks in ISI/gMotor/whatever physics over the years. Judging by Niels' love for spreadsheets and Visual Basic (I think?) scripts I've seen him show off on his YouTube channel, it appears he's assembled a personal toolkit not unlike what you've released for AC (which I hadn't seen before today, amazing job sharing that with the community by the way!).
To be completely honest, if there is any need to do any tricks with a tire model just to get the car to behave even a bit reasonably, then it has serious issues. It's not like you input in anything that can't be correlated to something that exists in reality. Not in these models at least.

I'd also expect Niels to have done said tricks if they were necessary, but just about every car in AMS seems to exhibit the same behavior. I just don't understand why. It's like all cars are fundamentally biased towards oversteer. Even the example Camaro car does the same stuff, but the suspension balance is so forward that it kind of handles like a car most of the time.

The weird thing is that making my car front-drive didn't make it understeer like crazy under power either so I'm not sure if it's even combined grip, it's like there is some kind of OVERSTEER = 1 line; which makes no sense at all. :mad:

Initially I thought that clearly it's just my suspension, but telemetry suggests that it matches as close as you'd ever want, so I'm bummed.

I theorized that perhaps everyone has been inputting in slip parameters wrong all this time and instead of SAE standard it should just be full degrees, but since then my .tbc file just stopped responding to changes and I've taken a temporary break in order to keep what shred of sanity I still have left.
 
To be completely honest, if there is any need to do any tricks with a tire model just to get the car to behave even a bit reasonably, then it has serious issues. It's not like you input in anything that can't be correlated to something that exists in reality. Not in these models at least.

I'd also expect Niels to have done said tricks if they were necessary, but just about every car in AMS seems to exhibit the same behavior. I just don't understand why. It's like all cars are fundamentally biased towards oversteer. Even the example Camaro car does the same stuff, but the suspension balance is so forward that it kind of handles like a car most of the time.

The weird thing is that making my car front-drive didn't make it understeer like crazy under power either so I'm not sure if it's even combined grip, it's like there is some kind of OVERSTEER = 1 line; which makes no sense at all. :mad:

Initially I thought that clearly it's just my suspension, but telemetry suggests that it matches as close as you'd ever want, so I'm bummed.

I theorized that perhaps everyone has been inputting in slip parameters wrong all this time and instead of SAE standard it should just be full degrees, but since then my .tbc file just stopped responding to changes and I've taken a temporary break in order to keep what shred of sanity I still have left.
Oh dear. Don't go insane!! Time to message Niels, I'd say. Or mention him here in this thread and see if he'll share his thoughts publicly. Perhaps you've uncovered a fundamental bug or engine limitation of some kind, or maybe there's just a misinterpretation somewhere.

*** I also now realize I didn't read your first posts quite as carefully as I should have – sorry! I somehow read past you mentioning Niels' cars in AMS seemed to exhibit the same behaviour. My couple responses above should now make more sense to you.
 
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Oh dear. Don't go insane!! Time to message Niels, I'd say. Or mention him here in this thread and see if he'll share his thoughts publicly. Perhaps you've uncovered a fundamental bug or engine limitation of some kind, or maybe there's just a misinterpretation somewhere.

*** I also now realize I didn't read your first posts quite as carefully as I should have – sorry! I somehow read past you mentioning Niels' cars in AMS seemed to exhibit the same behaviour. My couple responses above should now make more sense to you.
The chance I'm the first guy in a few decades to realize that ISImotor has a fundamental issue seems a bit unlikely to say the least. Although roll rates can be extremely off in some racecar designs due to lacking engineer insight/modeling features and maybe a wrong kinematic model can just line up to produce correct overall behavior on an incorrect tire model, so who knows.

I did re-implement the entire car onto the Camaro example car base just to make sure I didn't break it somehow with some bad line from the mod I used originally as a base, but no joy.

I guess if @Niels_at_home wants to point out my stupidity in public he can, or message me if I'm onto something. :roflmao:

To be clear this isn't some small issue we're talking about here, I had to add +10% rear grip just to get a somewhat comparable lap to use as telemetry output. I checked the load vs mu outputs and it very closely traces the load curve I envisioned, so I don't think it is that either.
 
The 'fun', or is it that other F word (frustration) with modding is figuring out how the game works, while most of us aren't Adrian Newey ourselves either. So who is wrong and why? I don't know! And NEVER trust someone who says they know! :D

Almost all the time I blamed the physics engine for something I was wrong. That goes for almost all people in the past. There was a front engined Porsche 911 for rFactor 'because physics engine bad' .. Karts weighed 400kg because 'physics engine bad'. Meanwhile this was all down to incorrect numbers and you can make a pretty good 911, and you can make a 2kg remote control scale car. People thought the tire model was bad, and while it might still be, having seen and copied the source code, the pure and combined slip behavior, with the right numbers, seems completely decent.

The rigid body solver seems very clever and I haven't seen any weird things with the suspension kinematics yet. And having been wrong half a dozen times, I tend to trust Terence to have come up with mostly very solid code back in the early 2000s.
There are numerous weird decisions made regarding how certain things work, but blatant bugs while I'm sure some must be in there, I haven't put my finger on.

You seem to have many (valid) questions on the origin of suspensions etc, so it is very likely that at least a PART of the problem is you're not 100% sure if what you think you put into the game is actually going into the game as expected. Then you also can't trust the outcome and you get a growing number of question marks.

And you come from another sim if I read into it correctly, which while probably also made by smart people just like ISImotor was made, could have its own odd decisions and/or bugs in it. So you can't be 100% sure if your reference is just what you're used to working with, or if it is actually the 'truth'..

Again this is the fun and frustration of sim physics work, there are just so many question marks that I don't think anyone can be truly confident of answering. Those who make the boldest claims (you don't, you have fair questions!) should be doubted.. a LOT :) The more sure people are, the surer I am they're full of .... :D

Variations of the ISImotor engine, I hope AMS since we added probably actually some improved things, are still used by racing teams and for driver training. I have made perhaps half a dozen pretty good cars that matched telemetry quite well and also subjectively felt good enough balance wise. But you're in extremely subjective territory there as well. Perhaps a vastly less oversteery version might be preferred by another driver, or vice versa. Even good drivers might prefer the sim to feel quite different. All based on what they're used to, what they expect, what they enjoy.. And you can get the basic telemetry (speed, G's) to match very well with quite a car balance range of course.

I've never deliberately added say 10% grip to make something work. A big ish mistake I made was with the aero. In my spreadsheet a road car had 50/50 aero if it had 10kg front and 10kg rear downforce, while producing a ground tire 'driving force' to counter the drag. Such cars, when coasting, subjected to basically only aero forces, could have like 50kg front downforce and 50kg rear lift, enough to cause a huge amount of high speed oversteer. Thankfully Reiza also has less stubborn people (Renato) who would go over the car pre release and would have his own methods (setup, grip and aero tweaks) to bring it back to a better state.

I stuck with my spreadsheet, believing it, and believing I understood aero, not realizing this was happening and causing a larger error, especially on non aero cars. Aero is surprisingly important for balance, even if it is just a bit of lift or downforce as 50kg can be 10% of the weight of a Formula Ford or something, enough to completely change the balance. (it wouldn't be 50kg in that case but you get the point)

One problem this gave cars was instability off throttle and trail braking, mostly done from high speed. Now that I found the problem with the aero, cars behave better and don't need as stiff of a front suspension which I might've ended up with before to stop excessive oversteer. Of course solving an aero problem with a stiff front only creates understeer (and often snap oversteer) at low speed..

But there are still issues I don't understand. Kerbs don't work on stiff racing cars. I think it may have something to do with the tire contact point being only vertically flexible, and also the tire stiffness being the same 300N/mm or whatever, even when the tire hits a sharp kerb, which would make the spring rate a lot lower than when trying to compress the tire on a flat road.. But I am not sure what it is.

Another issue is that there might indeed be too much oversteer on RWD cars and perhaps too much understeer on FWD cars, with how I make them. A car with not a lot a HUGE amount of power (1300kg 250hp) can easily be made to go sideways mid corner with some throttle, where the track car I drove in real life would most likely understeer from this. But I had zero data from the real car, and it isn't hard to make a sim car do this as well. But then I'm not sure if I matched the handling correctly, or if I had to put in say a too stiff front for understeer, to fix perhaps a tire model issue, so I'm just breaking the handling elsewhere.

A more recent thought I have is that the lack of compliance starts to add up. If I would go from 0% to 100% throttle in a millisecond, then one millisecond later, whatever the engine torque maximum is at that RPM, arrives at the rear tires. Way before load transfer has taken place. In reality engines don't respond this fast, flex in the drive shafts and tire also absorb this sudden torque. Perhaps compliances like this smooth out the torque delivery enough.
It would be a decent explanation that a car goes sideways mid corner because it is applying full driving force on the ground say 0.5 seconds before the load would've transferred. And if this is enough to get say a slip ratio of 0.3 going, well there goes your lateral force..

Geez I've just written a book again.. :D
 
@Niels_at_home

I understand what you mean and it was a fun post to read, but I was kind of expecting a "Probably you have done X" post. :p

For reasons like this, I have zeroed out the aero and such effects. I THINK the kinematics are in correctly because I use the -1 setting for "original behavior" and the telemetry matches. So then why does my car handle like it has a plastic tray on the rear tires? Even when I swap in other tires that seem to work okay on the original car?

It must be some kind of implementation oversight. If it's not, then I suppose the few dozen other cars I've made for AC are also extremely wrong, should probably not be able to understeer at all in reality and the video and telemetry is lying, and I have just been fooling myself all this time, which I find equally as unlikely as "ISImotor bad and nobody noticed".
 
Geez I've just written a book again.. :D
And still barely scratched the surface!

I doubt any sim comes anywhere near a deep modelling of kerb physics. Pacejka's treatment (Chapter 10) gives a good indication of the challenges. Law of dimishing returns applies for sure, but will nevertheless result in some strange simulation edge cases.

Always an enjoyable read Niels, many thanks. We've conversed elsewhere! :)
 
And still barely scratched the surface!

I doubt any sim comes anywhere near a deep modelling of kerb physics. Pacejka's treatment (Chapter 10) gives a good indication of the challenges. Law of dimishing returns applies for sure, but will nevertheless result in some strange simulation edge cases.

Always an enjoyable read Niels, many thanks. We've conversed elsewhere! :)
The kerb of death thing common to sims seems to be much less about tires and more about springing than you'd think. There's a reason it only affects select cars. Although it's not entirely confirmed so perhaps I shouldn't elaborate.
 

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