Palmer Dropped for US Race, Sainz in at Renault

Patrick van der Meulen

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May 11, 2017
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Sainz can lap very consistent. So they can develop your car much better. Impossible if a driver does laps that vary so much you never know if it was the setup or driver.
I think everyone driving in F1 is pretty concistent. Only some are consistently to slow and to bad... :D:roflmao:;)

When I look at the statistics at f1fanatics.co.uk Palmer ain’t that bad, only to slow compared to Hulkenberg and thus losing valuable points for Renault. And now the time has come for Sainz to put his money where his (big) mouth is. I sure do give him that, although I have my doubts if he is able to live up the expectations. Only time will tell.
 
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Andrew Harper

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A shame he won't see the season out. OK he had his chance and hasn't delivered for the team so I can understand the decision.

However there are also other factors. The car is not great, sometimes it just looks evil to drive. Reliability has been just terrible this year for the team as well. This isn't like before when a driver could run 100's laps in testing during the year. Seat time is invaluable.

Having said that, he just couldn't seem to deliver when it mattered and thats a shame. Could be a blessing in disguise though. Why waste all your millions in sponsorship for a 15th place finish. Get out and find some enjoyment in your racing life.
 

stbreaker

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I really don't mean this as a personal attack directed at anyone, just a genuine/innocent observation: I'm always surprised how much sympathy Palmer garners. I really don't care - people can sympathize or not sympathize with whichever driver strikes their fancy, as far as I'm concerned...just genuinely surprised to see how many people stick up for Palmer, because it seems to me the most remarkable thing about him is his total mediocrity. It's not like he's got some inspiring backstory or a magnetic personality or anything like that.
I don't have any particular feelings towards Palmer one way or the other, but I do think he has had absolutely terrible luck. His first year in F1, the car was garbage and was built for a different engine than was present. Honestly, his teammate was not much better if better at all. Now this season his car has had numerous mechanical issues, some of which actually caused his crashes. That feeds into his lack of confidence in the car and causes even worse performance. So I think the sympathy comes from knowing that at least some of his "failure to perform" is not his fault.
 

redt

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Aug 16, 2016
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Fair enough Palmer didn't cut it, but no one was sympathethic to him, you'd think he was Ide the way people got onto him especially U.K. don't like their "heros" to be wealthy/financially well off.

And then we get Kvyat back who is only marginally better
Although it makes sense for Renault, their car still needs work on reliability
 

Coffer

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Dec 18, 2016
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I'll miss him. It's not surprising to see him get replaced, but he was a good lad.

Fair enough Palmer didn't cut it, but no one was sympathethic to him, you'd think he was Ide the way people got onto him especially U.K. don't like their "heros" to be wealthy/financially well off.
Most British fans are beyond perplexing and not worth taking seriously.

I really don't mean this as a personal attack directed at anyone, just a genuine/innocent observation: I'm always surprised how much sympathy Palmer garners. I really don't care - people can sympathize or not sympathize with whichever driver strikes their fancy, as far as I'm concerned...just genuinely surprised to see how many people stick up for Palmer, because it seems to me the most remarkable thing about him is his total mediocrity. It's not like he's got some inspiring backstory or a magnetic personality or anything like that.
I don't give a damn about him being mediocre. He's more likable than most drivers. That, to me, is a plus. I've got plenty of other drivers who are significantly faster and whom I also root for. It doesn't mean I can't also like Palmer and feel bad for him. I miss Maldonado and Sutil even more, but they didn't get fired mid-season by a desperate Enstone team known for its shadiness more than anything else and Palmer's luck was significantly worse in F1, even if he was also slow. Heidfeld was another driver whom I strongly sympathized with for similar reasons, as he got fired from the same shady team (for no reason whatsoever in fact, as unlike Palmer he wasn't slow, Petrov was just much better starting from Abu Dhabi 2010 and it culminated in him demolishing Kovalainen in 2012) and replaced with the worst driver of 2011 and 2012.

For me, F1 needs characters, especially likable ones, more than it needs the best drivers in the world, especially seeing as, at the very top, it does have those anyway (Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen). Just look at how laughable any and all "prestigious" simracing events are (like the Visa Vegas FE event) where the best drivers are nothing more than mindless drones who barely seem to have anything that humanizes them or that drives you to respect or admire them.

And I'd say he does have a magnetic personality for me. He's significantly more likable than the average Brit.
 
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Richard Hessels

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Jul 23, 2008
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As long as F1 is around, mediocre "talents" are coming and going. Every now and than some newcomers stand out, and are here to stay. Verstappen obviously, but Ocon will do great things in the future too.
It's time they kick some of the older drivers with mediocre results out of F1.
 

Rob Every

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May 31, 2008
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I think there is also a rather odd feeling towards Jo because of his Dad, not sure he comes across that well to a lot of fans, and it is fairly obvious his money helped Jo into that drive, so these things never help.

He is a decent peddlar, same as his Dad, but nothing special. Drove in GP2 for a while before finally nailing a win, and again in there he was moved around until he found the right team, where some guys get maybe one chance with their budget.

Let's be honest, Sainz has looked far better, so why not. Palmer will not be missed, he has had a lot of bad luck yes, but is that all someone elses fault?
 

Coffer

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Dec 18, 2016
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I think there is also a rather odd feeling towards Jo because of his Dad, not sure he comes across that well to a lot of fans, and it is fairly obvious his money helped Jo into that drive, so these things never help.

He is a decent peddlar, same as his Dad, but nothing special. Drove in GP2 for a while before finally nailing a win, and again in there he was moved around until he found the right team, where some guys get maybe one chance with their budget.

Let's be honest, Sainz has looked far better, so why not. Palmer will not be missed, he has had a lot of bad luck yes, but is that all someone elses fault?
I'm not so convinced by Sainz. Sure, he is better than Palmer, but I don't think he's a future champion. He's much too clumsy and crashy, he's not a team player at all, he causes drama wherever he goes (ask Pujolar, Verstappen and Kvyat) and his pace isn't really anything out of the ordinary. Sure, maybe that's all Renault want for the time being, but once they start matching Red Bull (which will happen sooner rather than later thanks to their most recent hiring) their driver lineup will expose them, and given that adapting to a different car mid-season is far from the easiest thing to do, I don't see this pushing them any higher than 7th in the championship this year either. It's both a rushed acquisition and one that won't help them out in the long run.
They should've gotten Alonso instead - he's got the same problems with his absurd ego and inability to act as a team member, but at least he's faster and doesn't really want to retire, and with how much money the Enstone team is getting now (hell, another reason to get rid of Palmer), they would've been able to afford him just fine.

And while his circumstances weren't always his fault, Palmer did get the short end of the stick far more often than not. I'm not convinced that his peak is that much worse than Hulkenberg's given his pace in races like Austria and a couple of others this season, as well as the majority of the second half of last season, though I am at least willing to accept that that's more down to the shortcomings of drivers like Hulkenberg and Magnussen.

As for his pay driver status, I really don't get the complaints. The teams matter more than the drivers in this day and age, and they certainly matter more than the fans. That money is necessary. I don't even see it as a necessary evil, but rather an investment into the long-term development of your team. Just look at Perez and his Telmex backing. Even better, look at Stroll and his dad's backing, especially with how much better he's gotten over the course of the season and how much effort he's put into that via testing with the old car. This is generally something I've only ever heard British people complain about, usually in the same way they complain about drivers "whining" or otherwise being unhappy when they're being paid a lot of money. It's like money is their ultimate antagonist, when it's really just a tool for teams to move forward.
I'd understand them a bit better if their secondary argument about wanting to see better drivers had more merit, but this is the first generation which, on average, hasn't had better drivers than the previous one. The top drivers are very good, but the midfielders and backmarkers are largely worse than those of the last decade. Leclerc is the first true sign that things might be changing for the better, but especially after Bianchi and Bottas entered the sport there were basically NO good up-and-coming drivers besides Vandoorne. F2 has become an absolute laughingstock in recent years, GP3 is barely any better and recently even Red Bull have run out of rookies to train. All you had were mediocre drivers who were barely any better than the pay drivers who ultimately did get into the sport. In fact, the argument is even more hurt by the sheer lack of people bemoaning Wehrlein's inevitable fate of being knocked out of the sport. I don't see it being a question of morality either, as shown by the majority of people celebrating Palmer getting kicked out in the middle of the season or Kvyat's second demotion-via-text-message.
 
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Rob Every

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Not really sure what you are saying in that long winded reply!

Palmer is not good enough, and really never has been, he is another Kvyat, Vergne, Pic, Maldonado type with plenty of money and perhaps a team based scholarship behind him who has failed to really shine.

I think most fans would agree that Sainz has shined at various points more than Kvyat, as did Hulkenberg before him. And certainly more than Palmer has, hence they dumped the guy that has cost them millions in repairs and made poor decisions over the course of a few years. Why wouldn't they?

Yes Jo has been unluckly, cruelly so at times. But don't you think there might be other reasons for that? Maybe the team have been using him as a donkey in full knowledge they know they are not keeping him, and don't care?
 

Coffer

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Not really sure what you are saying in that long winded reply!

Palmer is not good enough, and really never has been, he is another Kvyat, Vergne, Pic, Maldonado type with plenty of money and perhaps a team based scholarship behind him who has failed to really shine.

I think most fans would agree that Sainz has shined at various points more than Kvyat, as did Hulkenberg before him. And certainly more than Palmer has, hence they dumped the guy that has cost them millions in repairs and made poor decisions over the course of a few years. Why wouldn't they?

Yes Jo has been unluckly, cruelly so at times. But don't you think there might be other reasons for that? Maybe the team have been using him as a donkey in full knowledge they know they are not keeping him, and don't care?
Then perhaps you need to put in some effort to read it. It's not that long of a reply. It's a forum, not social media.

The crashes would've mattered if this was 2015, especially with Maldonado being crashier and eventually losing his PDVSA backing, but Renault now have the exact same level of funding as the other top teams and Palmer was considerably less crashy than Maldonado, who actually was a problem in that sense. And that's without mentioning his improved pace in the second halves of both 2016 and 2017, with Sainz instead showing a backwards trend that is only masked by Kvyat's self-destruction. If anything, if you had brought up Renault's increased funding you would've had a point, as now Palmer's money is all but unnecessary and he only stayed on in the first place because there were no available replacements.

Bad luck is bad luck. The whole "you make your own luck" thing is usually a load of crock in F1. Nobody's denying his slowness, but replacing him with 4 races to go is immoral and absolutely worthy of criticism, on top of the fact that history itself (through the likes of Fisichella, hence my problem with your "shining" argument as there's a 75%+ chance that Sainz will not score any significant points for the remainder of the season) says that the odds of it making any sort of positive impact are close to zero thanks to the effort required to adapt to a completely different car in the middle of a season. It suits the vile nature of the Enstone team very well. If he had been allowed to do the last 4 races, there would've been no problems whatsoever, but as it stands, his pace had actually gotten good since the start of the second half, with the car's inconsistency and poor reliability having much more of an impact on their results than Palmer's lack of pace.

You're also out of your mind if you think Vergne didn't shine, given that extreme bad luck is the only reason he got outscored by Ricciardo (Monaco 2012) and Red Bull's idiocy is the only reason he did not get a seat after 2014. The fact that you think he was a pay driver, quite frankly, says everything I need to know.
 

Rob Every

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May 31, 2008
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Well do you think Max got that seat purely on talent?

I can tell you with 100% certainty he did not, he took vast sums to Torro Rosso, as did Kvyat.

I never said Verge was a pay driver, you did!!
 

rubaru

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Dec 7, 2015
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Maybe I'm not seeing the right information, but I haven't seen anything formal about KVY being back in the seat for Austin. Honestly, it's the most likely scenario, but where is the official press release from STR?

And I wonder...has a driver ever been kicked out before, and then taken back to the team to drive his former teammate's car? Or will Gasly be moved to Sainz's car and Daniil gets his back?
 

Patrick van der Meulen

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Maybe I'm not seeing the right information, but I haven't seen anything formal about KVY being back in the seat for Austin. Honestly, it's the most likely scenario, but where is the official press release from STR?

And I wonder...has a driver ever been kicked out before, and then taken back to the team to drive his former teammate's car? Or will Gasly be moved to Sainz's car and Daniil gets his back?
Here you have the announcement: http://www.scuderiatororosso.com/en...-rosso-release-carlos-sainz-after-japanese-gp

And it is indeed intresting to see if Kvyat get “his” car back. Though it mainly has to do with limited changeable parts. But the announcement is painfully clear about Kvyats position. Looks like Gasly is the preferred driver.
 

Rob Every

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I am aware of a lad who raced against Max as a kid in karting (several did obviously), knows his father and is fully aware of how much cash was used to get him into F1, same as Sainz actually who spent even more!!

Sorry, but until someone proves otherwise I will believe the guy I know who was trying to do the same for his lad! And is not short of cash himself
 

stbreaker

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Oct 3, 2010
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@Coffer

I really agree with a lot of things you wrote in your "long-winded" posts. ;)

In particular,
- I do think Palmer seems to be a likeable dude. Here in the USA, he gets less media attention so I don't see much of him, but I certainly haven't had any negative thoughts. There's a whole debate about whether true sports greats aren't "nice" as a character trait, but no need to get into that now.
- Also agree with your statements about Sainz being probably better overall, but too prone to crashing and inconsistency.
- I'll somewhat agree with the thought that Alonso is a more logical choice. I don't necessarily think he's egotistical, but he can get thrown off when he's not the clear lead driver (I think Vettel is the same). He's certainly faster though
- ...pretty much everything you said about pay drivers. Just because someone has money and it probably helped them get into the seat doesn't mean that they aren't talented or hardworking. It's also not like pay drivers started appearing overnight; they have been part of motorsports for a long time. Let's face it, one of the reasons Force India is doing so well lately is that they have access to Perez's sponsor money - no one is complaining about that. Conversely, you see how hard Sauber dropped off once their cash flow situation changed.
- I get that 30 years ago it wasn't uncommon for drivers to do partial programs or get replaced during the year, but it's pretty jarring to see these days, in particular with the total lack of testing time. It just feels like some of these guys are only getting a few races in (which they don't complete due to some technical issue) and then they get labeled as "underperforming." Obviously it's not my $$$ at stake, but I feel that morally (maybe not the best word, but you get it) drivers deserve at least a full season to show what they have. Considering last season at Renault literally meant nothing, Palmer had like 3 legit races before people started talking about replacing him.
- I've always thought Red Bull and Toro Rosso treat their drivers poorly in comparison to their results. I've written other posts detailing that before.