Overtaking / Wheel to Wheel Racing Tips

[Nox]

Hi all,

As a relative noob to the online racing world, one thing I am finding hard to get used to is when it comes to overtaking. The few times I have had an opportunity to overtake, I've been so concerned and worried about some form of contact that I've either messed up my own line and cost myself a few seconds, or in one case, I attempted a pass on the inside of someone, they turned in and we tapped. No harm done, I gave the place back and only a second or two lost for both of us.

In that case, I was on TeamSpeak with Dennis (the other car) who was able to relay to me he felt the overtake was too aggressive and I was quickly able to give the spot back. If it had been another driver, not on TS, I'd not have known there was a problem. After watching the replay, I think my move was brave, but controlled (I hit the apex, left plenty of room), and I don't think it was just a dive-bomb up on the inside. Dennis, a pro in comparison, didn't see it that way (and I happily defer to his opinion). It was the only time I attempted a move - the rest of my races I have left plenty of space, taken outside lines when I know cars are coming down the inside, etc.

The reason I explain all this isn't to complain - FAR FROM IT - I am using it as an example of a new person trying to get to grips with it.

So, do you have some general tips? When is it considered okay to go into a corner on the inside of someone? If someone isn't on TS to relay they have an issue, how can I possibly know to give the spot back? And what if I feel the overtake was fair, and the other driver doesn't? I know you can make an incident report later, but I feel I'd be driving ahead of them worried I had done something wrong and would probably give the spot back even if it wasn't necessary. My biggest worry is getting a reputation for unfair moves, when I want to make sure I race hard but fair.

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to make sure it was all explained properly. I am sure many of you had similar concerns when you first started out.

 

[Warren Dawes]

I'll at least try to answer your concerns about how to interpret an incident.
Firstly, you clearly have the desired attitude, giving priority to driving clean.
However, we have all been involved in incidents where we aren't sure who was at fault (or if it was simply a racing incident). My advice is to seek a ruling from the Race Director, I've done this before without turning it into an "official" report. If you are in doubt, refer the incident to a Director, explain your view and any concerns, and ask them for their interpretation. I'm sure they will happily give you a ruling, which will help in future potential incidents. If you are found to have contributed, even perhaps been in the wrong, the Director will explain why but in a helpful way.

Don't always assume that a more experienced driver is correct, sometimes their interpretation may be different due their different view of the incident, so an independent ruling is usually the best.

Re the "dive-bomb" style pass, it's the most common cause of incidents, it's risky, but also the most common type of pass you will encounter. There are guidelines about what constitutes the needed overlap (to be acceptable) and if both drivers try to obey them, accidents should be limited. I'll let the Race Directors advise those guidelines.
Personally, I tend to avoid those types of passes, and look for other ways that are much cleaner. This makes some overtakes more difficult but patience and clean driving is the better goal.

 

[Rupe Wilson]

I use this for a good example.. to keep myself out of harm..
http://wiki.grandprixlegends.info/index.php?title=GPL_Recommended_Driver_Behaviour

i know its for GP Legends but it gave me a good insight.. as with all driving its what you feel competent doing. As you race with the same group over a period of time you get to know the drivers also.
what i also think about is , would i rather race for the full distance or be a hero to zero and maybe spoil my my race and more importantly spoil others to.. all this takes time.. im still learning to week by week as are all drivers. mistakes will happen that's racing its what you do after it happens that counts. and try to learn from the mistakes.. no body will blame you if there is a opportunity to pass that's what were here for its picking when to pass that is the skill, main thing it to get out on the server and enjoy yourself, dont worry about lap times or positions, just enjoy the race, some of the best battles ive had are in lowly positions at the rear just racing the driver in front lap after lap.. that was my battle not to win the race just keep up with the guy and look for a clean pass. put pressure on him leave enough of a gap so i could use different lines look at how my speed in a corner altered ..
the main thing is to have fun this will make your night allot more enjoyable and the passing will all fall into place

 

[Marco Bijl]

You can always make a request to us as staff to have a look and give a judgement. Off course, its fully up to you if you want us to have consequences if applicable to our decision. We can also just give some advise.

I have to agree with Warren here. The fact that you are interested in knowing, shows that your attitude is ok . Clean racing gives a lot more satisfaction, so good to hear people also care about that!

For some general tips, you better wait until someone who can actually drive fast, and race has some time to respond here. In those very rare occasions I am on track, I usually am at the back, just doing my laps, not being around anyone else. So my experience there is very limited.

 

[Nox]

I use this for a good example.. to keep myself out of harm..
http://wiki.grandprixlegends.info/index.php?title=GPL_Recommended_Driver_Behaviour

i know its for GP Legends but it gave me a good insight.. as with all driving its what you feel competent doing. As you race with the same group over a period of time you get to know the drivers also.
what i also think about is , would i rather race for the full distance or be a hero to zero and maybe spoil my my race and more importantly spoil others to.. all this takes time.. im still learning to week by week as are all drivers. mistakes will happen that's racing its what you do after it happens that counts. and try to learn from the mistakes.. no body will blame you if there is a opportunity to pass that's what were here for its picking when to pass that is the skill, main thing it to get out on the server and enjoy yourself, dont worry about lap times or positions, just enjoy the race, some of the best battles ive had are in lowly positions at the rear just racing the driver in front lap after lap.. that was my battle not to win the race just keep up with the guy and look for a clean pass. put pressure on him leave enough of a gap so i could use different lines look at how my speed in a corner altered ..
the main thing is to have fun this will make your night allot more enjoyable and the passing will all fall into place

Thanks, I completely agree with that attitude - I'd happily finish in last place every time if it's a clean race (with some good battles). And I'm generally at the back of the grid too. It's when a reverse grid comes up, or chasing someone at the back of the grid when I get a rare opportunity. Being so rare is one of the reasons it's hard to practice overtaking, another reason I am asking for tips here.

 

[Nox]

You can always make a request to us as staff to have a look and give a judgement. Off course, its fully up to you if you want us to have consequences if applicable to our decision. We can also just give some advise.

I have to agree with Warren here. The fact that you are interested in knowing, shows that your attitude is ok . Clean racing gives a lot more satisfaction, so good to hear people also care about that!

For some general tips, you better wait until someone who can actually drive fast, and race has some time to respond here. In those very rare occasions I am on track, I usually am at the back, just doing my laps, not being around anyone else. So my experience there is very limited.

Where would I request staff to take a look at future incidents? Not as an official report but as a learning tool (so, seeing where I am in the wrong is more important to me).

The GPL page was excellent (and the corner rights section definitely cleared up a lot for me so I can see why the overtake attempt on Dennis I described in my original post was clearly wrong.)

 

[Warren Dawes]

Where would I request staff to take a look at future incidents? Not as an official report but as a learning tool (so, seeing where I am in the wrong is more important to me).

What I have done in the past is to send a PM to the relevant Race Director, giving details of the replay time of incident, and simply asking for feedback.

 

[Marco Bijl]

Indeed, ass Warren says, you can contact the organizer of the event if you do not know where to go.
You can always contact me as well, no matter what platform it is.

 

[Nox]

Indeed, ass Warren says, you can contact the organizer of the event if you do not know where to go.
You can always contact me as well, no matter what platform it is.

Thanks Marco, Warren. Much appreciated!

 

[Dennis Phelan]

Replays are always the first place to go when looking at an incident. They're also good for understanding other problems occurring on track, getting a look at wheels on or off the road, brake lock-up, race starts and of course watching the race that you didn't get to see for one reason or another. If I've gotten upset with someone during an event I usually get straightened out with just one quick viewing.

The best thing to happen to me was having another driver, Eric Estes, who was just about as fast as I was. For almost a whole year we battled and had to get close many times. The necessity for driving together, as it took sometimes laps for us to pass, mad great practice for both of us. We loved the practice but we knew the time spent together was something special .

Of course this solved two problems, the other being: how do you keep driving when someone is right on your butt and not just drive off the track? The answer is the same, Most drivers in the club races are hopping on the track to test a change to the car, getting a feel for it or a time to compare to and then dropping back into the pit to make a change. Few are going out for enough laps to catch someone and spend the time to learn how to make a good pass. Usually they hit "Esc" just be for e they close on the fellow. We would all be better off if more drivers did that, even the one turn behind a fast driver before he pulls away can give a valuable moment for a driver that needs help and confidence.

I propose a session, using one of the four servers that are up all the time, for drivers to meet at and run around at not the fastest pace but a pace that allows all to follow someone. Small groups of three or four taking some bumps and learning the finer points of staying within striking distance of another driver without hitting him in the braking zone or while making a pass. Right, I'm not talking about a "train" of cars but rather a tight "race" as cars go out together and stay together, not to find speed but some of the other points in car management and driving skills. This does not have to be organized, simply a not in chat to other drivers asking for participation. Being on TeamSpeak would be really nice, drivers could say intentions, room given etc.

 

[Nox]

Replays are always the first place to go when looking at an incident. They're also good for understanding other problems occurring on track, getting a look at wheels on or off the road, brake lock-up, race starts and of course watching the race that you didn't get to see for one reason or another. If I've gotten upset with someone during an event I usually get straightened out with just one quick viewing.

The best thing to happen to me was having another driver, Eric Estes, who was just about as fast as I was. For almost a whole year we battled and had to get close many times. The necessity for driving together, as it took sometimes laps for us to pass, mad great practice for both of us. We loved the practice but we knew the time spent together was something special .

Of course this solved two problems, the other being: how do you keep driving when someone is right on your butt and not just drive off the track? The answer is the same, Most drivers in the club races are hopping on the track to test a change to the car, getting a feel for it or a time to compare to and then dropping back into the pit to make a change. Few are going out for enough laps to catch someone and spend the time to learn how to make a good pass. Usually they hit "Esc" just be for e they close on the fellow. We would all be better off if more drivers did that, even the one turn behind a fast driver before he pulls away can give a valuable moment for a driver that needs help and confidence.

I propose a session, using one of the four servers that are up all the time, for drivers to meet at and run around at not the fastest pace but a pace that allows all to follow someone. Small groups of three or four taking some bumps and learning the finer points of staying within striking distance of another driver without hitting him in the braking zone or while making a pass. Right, I'm not talking about a "train" of cars but rather a tight "race" as cars go out together and stay together, not to find speed but some of the other points in car management and driving skills. This does not have to be organized, simply a not in chat to other drivers asking for participation. Being on TeamSpeak would be really nice, drivers could say intentions, room given etc.

That's a great idea. I'd love to see that happen.

 

[Pete Bone]

"I propose a session, using one of the four servers that are up all the time, for drivers to meet at and run around at not the fastest pace but a pace that allows all to follow someone. Small groups of three or four taking some bumps and learning the finer points of staying within striking distance of another driver without hitting him in the braking zone or while making a pass. Right, I'm not talking about a "train" of cars but rather a tight "race" as cars go out together and stay together, not to find speed but some of the other points in car management and driving skills. This does not have to be organized, simply a not in chat to other drivers asking for participation. Being on TeamSpeak would be really nice, drivers could say intentions, room given etc.

I tell you what Dennis, thats probably the best suggestion iv heard in a very long time. I have managed to 'borrow'(i say borrow, more keep until it dies) a DFP wheel that was first bought waaaaaaay back in 2004 so i am up for some practice.

 

[Yves Larose]

very interesting topic, here's a few tips that i can think of on how to make a clean and fair move.

First its about knowledge for me, its to know your weakness and force, its to know your car (read setup) weakness and strong point, its to know the track which corners are saver for a pass and which are less save, its to know who you are racing against some are cleaner then others, some are more fair then others and some are more experienced then others. making a clean and fair pass its not all your responsability its also the other driver that is being passed responsability.

second is to prepare your overtaking, get to know the weakness and strong point of the guy that your trying to overtake compare to yours weak and strong point and make the difference between his strong point and your weak points smaller so when its gonna be the other way around you'll be in the right position for the clean and fair overtake opportunity.

Third and finaly its the confidence or authority that you put in your passing attempt. sticking only the nose of the car inside will most of the time end in tears for both drivers i would say you have to be 3/4 or fully along side to make it an authority pass otherwise its alway best to back off of the attempt.

to give you an idea of what i mean watch that video, its me racing against someone, me and the other guy were racing each other 2 to 3 time a weeks for about a year so we knew each others as drivers pretty well.

 

[Justin Swan]

Totally agree with Yves, it's just as much responsibility for the defending driver to avoid contact. If I feel I've caused a collision I will always give up the place, not necessarily immediately but when it's safest to do so. However if I feel it was just a racing incident then there is no reason to surrender your position. You know if it's your fault or not, whether it's locked brakes, under/over steer or just too ambitious, you made the decision to have a go.

 

[Nox]

That was a pretty epic battle, Yves!

 

[Tim Meuris]

watched it already long time ago and remembered it instantly
some worldclass footage this, Yves, really!

 

[Calum McLure]

Another tip is that your braking distance isn't reduced just because you are trying to overtake someone seems common sense I know but from the amount of times people have went flying up my inside or outside and missed corner I thought I would point it out.

9/10 someone will have a braking point they use because it is the latest they can brake whilst still being able to make the corner but for some reason some people try to brake even later than that point when making a move on someone

 

[Alberto Casado]

Another tip is that your braking distance isn't reduced just because you are trying to overtake someone seems common sense I know but from the amount of times people have went flying up my inside or outside and missed corner I thought I would point it out.

9/10 someone will have a braking point they use because it is the latest they can brake whilst still being able to make the corner but for some reason some people try to brake even later than that point when making a move on someone

Well, on a normal "relaxed" lapping you don't usually brake at the very last chance (you are not hotlapping, you want to finish the race), there is a bit of margin that you then can use for braking later, but knowing that that makes it into more and more of a gamble.
But yeah, on some public servers you see people absolutely missing braking points by 30-50 meters, that is not going to fly...

Personally, I drive under the assumption that overtaking an equally paced car (plus minus tenths of a second per sector) is virtually impossible unless he makes a mistake. So I will show noses, and wait for the mistake to happen but I will not put my car in places that force the other to brake differently just to avoid crashing.
In the case of a slower car, it should be perfectly possible to overtake safely.

So it is a safe overtake or no overtake for me. Although some times I have found myself overtaking by what was simply collision avoidance to very very weird ways to make a turn, and far from safe, but I don't think that those are my fault.

 

[Nox]

Loving all the tips and help. I hope people continue adding to the pile.

 

[Dennis Phelan]

Another tip is that your braking distance isn't reduced just because you are trying to overtake someone seems common sense I know but from the amount of times people have went flying up my inside or outside and missed corner I thought I would point it out.

9/10 someone will have a braking point they use because it is the latest they can brake whilst still being able to make the corner but for some reason some people try to brake even later than that point when making a move on someone

Man, isn't that the truth, and when it fails just dive in any way and call it a pass, so what if the guy gets knocked off line. Which by the way could be an offense punishable by 30 day banishment from RD racing. Not called so many times, a pity.