Options for tactile feedback setup.

[Gargamadua]

Hi, i'm about to embark on my journey into tactile feedback, but I have to be honest and whilst I think I have grasped the basics things are pretty unclear as to what my options are, after watching You tube, reading the posts here and on reddit etc, there's appears to be a huge array of option and a fair amount of conflicting information.

My rig is a self built 8020 profile and pretty damn solid, and my chosen seat (Sparco R333) is quite padded with no real options to mount any exciters directly to it.

A couple of pictures of it for reference:

As far as my options go, I'm more interested in quality than budget, that doesn't mean my budget is unlimited, it more of a case that I'd pay the extra to get the setup right at the outset rather than try and do it at a budget and then end up paying more in the long run due to upgrading.

With the rig being solid I think I have pretty much written off the budget end of the market, I don't think I'd get enough feedback and the money would be better spent towards better kit.

Ultimately my goal is for as realistic feedback as I can within my budget, do i go the whole hog or do I start with a more simple solution and improve it as I become more familiar with tactile in general, I'm not sure at this point and the more I read the more I'm confused. If I had to put a figure on budget I would say £1500 ish is my limit.

I appreciate that I will need to isolate the rig as well as the seat/pedals as well as buy cables and connectors, so I'm not including any costs of these in my budget as they are necessities and ultimately the cost of these will depend on what I end up buying.

To that end I've come up with a few rough ideas but I'm not sure which is the better option.

Option 1. (probably overkill and the most expensive)

4 x Buttkicker advance, one per corner

2 x NX1000D or NX3000D for the 4 x advance

1 x Buttkicker (not sure which) mounted between the 2 seat rails which will be isolated from the rig, plus amp to suit (probably another 1000D)

Option 2. (Similar idea but cheaper)

Pretty much as Option 1 but replacing the 2 x front advance and seat unit with Aurasound AST-2B-4's or similar, and suitable amp, keeping the 2x advance and nx amp for the rear.

Option 3.

2 x Buttkicker Advance, setup for left and right or front and rear 1 x Nx1000D, again not sure which under seat unit & amp

Option 4.

2 x Buttkicker Advance, 1 x Nx1000D setup for left and right or front and rear.

Any comments or suggestions are welcomed, I may be way off with my thinking, I really don't know at this point, I'm guessing that I might be best just starting with a single unit + amp and build from there.

 

[egon83nl]

Hi mate, I have to Sparco R333 as well... Where would you mount the buttkicker as I have nothing to drill holes in at the bottom of the seat as this is all cloth material...

 

[Michael Krone]

Just a suggestion but, dont overlook the option of vibration motors. Most people only consider the "xbox controller motors" but there are many options out there.

 

[MariusWolf]

I'm in a very similar position as the author,I'm getting my SimLab P1-X rig shipped and will want to add tactile but after spending days reading and watching videos, I'm still a bit confused with what would be the best option forward without the need to replace things down the road. Thinking about the BK Advanced but I would want to get whatever is best for the set up. Thanks for any input.

 

[blekenbleu]

the best option forward without the need to replace things down the road

Similar questions were asked in early days of home theater,
when laser discs were replacing S-VHS.
With @Mr Latte's RaceBass just now being deployed,
one can anticipate further significant evolution.

 

[MariusWolf]

Similar questions were asked in early days of home theater,
when laser discs were replacing S-VHS.
With @Mr Latte's RaceBass just now being deployed,
one can anticipate further significant evolution.

Oh boy, I would definitely purchase anything Mr.Latte had to offer reading all his posts here he's like Socrates the way that he writes his responses and answers. Any word on what Race Bass will be, my head is spinning with the set ups I'm thinking of 4 advance BK with inuke amps but if Mr. Latte is coming out with something soon, I rather wait .

I was in the same boat with my home theater system, I rather buy quality and have it last for years than buy entry/mid products and upgrade later on. So I'm here trying to get a better grasp on everything.

 

[blekenbleu]

same boat

FWIW, I went thru 3 iterations of display and 7 major iterations of sound over 30 years of home theater.
Putting off getting started maps to experience forfeited.

 

[Mr Latte]

Oh boy, I would definitely purchase anything Mr.Latte had to offer reading all his posts here he's like Socrates the way that he writes his responses and answers. Any word on what Race Bass will be, my head is spinning with the set ups I'm thinking of 4 advance BK with inuke amps but if Mr. Latte is coming out with something soon, I rather wait .

I was in the same boat with my home theater system, I rather buy quality and have it last for years than buy entry/mid products and upgrade later on. So I'm here trying to get a better grasp on everything.

RaceBass needs its own place/blog so I can share more what it is about but the primary goal is to bring the d-box type concept to tactile. What I mean by this, is that people buy into fixed hardware, this gets installed in recommend ways, that offers a high level of performance. Yet importantly, more advanced effects are developed and created that make use of that hardware, the specific installation/isolation and these effects are tuned to suit that hardware. Having multiple layers also allows users to alter the effects generated output in that they can still create their own output mix for effects or indeed grouping of effects they want to run.

For years I have shared views on various things with not much traction happening, my "Dual Role" approach with tactile I shared in 2012 but only now are others really starting to take it more seriously in that to get the best tactile performance. Then part of that requires taking certain steps or using certain hardware, yet this approach I use does not limit the performance to what any individual transducer achieves which is what is generally done.

You are asking about how well a BK Advance performs, sure it can pack a bit of punch, we can say it's about 3x the output of a BK Mini with a good additional 15Hz or so lower performance to the BK Mini but it's then also short by about 3x output when it comes to the lower bass frequencies of the largest models.

What I discovered in my own journey/research for my own unique rig build is that we need to look beyond the traditional approach with tactile. It's not a question of how well for example the BK Advance performs, or any other single model.

Finding the best quality in immersion is about how well the combination of large ButtKicker, TST and usage of multiple exciters can perform to indulge the user in a superior level of tactile feedback, which the common approaches focusing on single make/models of hardware just cannot get close to offering. Why, well because each single option is restricted by the performance limitations that the unit has in its output abilities and unique output characteristics of different frequencies.

My own approach to effects, is that they are then built to utilise each of those hardware elements to bring out the benefits each of them individual offer. Still much research and testing is to be done with effects but this is something I enjoy doing...

What I can say now as feedback is coming in from people, from different perspectives. The newcomers to tactile, advanced, or already familiar users of tactile previously using "corners installations" as well as from real track experienced drivers, that indeed this approach I have taken appears to be a success, able to outperform any other tactile solution that is currently on the market. Now that's not my words or opinion but what we are finding people's views are.

Of course, RaceBass is designed to be expandable but even the recent demonstration at Sim Expo and an upcoming 24Hr race (where it will be available to try) is not even running fully optimal, yet still, so far the feedback I am told has been positive.

The key hardware has been shared, the springs and mounting solutions are getting more development... I personally want to work with a company that can both offer something to suit its own cockpit aspirations or vision but also bring something in the form of a tried/tested package, to the community that can be accomplished on popular 8020 based rigs.

I have to say the free assistance behind the scenes, I have been getting from certain members on these forums is a credit to them as individuals in their own talents/abilities but also kindness and willingness to help.

It's a journey let's see where the road takes us...

 

[cnhoff]

I guess nobody doubts that MrLatte's upcoming system will be better as a whole than anything people with limited time and invested in the subject will be able to develop and create, but i can tell you what i currently have, as my rig is very similar to yours apart from the triples. This is in line with some recommendations on the forums, so i did not come up with that on my own.

I have put my seat and pedals on 8mm aluminium plates that are floating on a spring/rubber isolation assembly (4 per plate obviously), similar to the ones recently discussed. This offers pretty good isolation and little flex, although i would not call this solution 100% perfect in those categories. The seat and pedals are bolted to the top of those plates. With a little bit of planning, this can be quite easily realized on an 8020 rig like you have.

Both of those plates have a Buttkicker LFE and a Clark TST (239 for the pedals and 329 for the seat) mounted to the bottom of those plates. The LFEs are powered by a NX3000D, the TSTs by a NX1000D. The DSP is used to boost the low-end on the LFE's, limit the maximum power and do some harmonics filtering while also doing some bandpass filtering, so the LFE works on the very low frequencies on its own.

I am by no means an expert and am just trying to get to grips with multi-layer, multi-device effects and fine-tuning the DSP for best crossover and frequency response that is tuned to my rig's physics.

It is a journey you have to be willing to invest time and money in though, so that would definitively be a benefit of an integrated expert solution along with the result of your own solution probably trailing behind what is possible.

 

[blekenbleu]

8mm aluminium plates

Since these are part of the active tactile system,
they would be IMO better made from plywood than aluminum,
not to mention cheaper and easier for many to fabricate.
I appreciate that plywood may be an unpopular aesthetic choice for extruded T-slot rigs...

 

[cnhoff]

I understand plywood is used for that purpose, but what would be the benefits apart from cost and ease of use?

I guess the material is softer, dissipates some of the energy and probably adds some kind of mild lowpass effect, smearing the energy of some of the fast transients over time?! Is that, what we want?

 

[blekenbleu]

Aluminum and steel plates are underdamped and liable to resonances (ringing)
that can confound and distort tactile effects, e.g. if trying to mix multiple effects.
Plywood is more nearly critically damped;
MDF is overdamped, weaker and higher density.
Plate rigidity is roughly proportional to the cube of thickness;
a thicker plywood plate can be more rigid than thinner aluminum,
yet weigh less because lower (~1/4) density.

 

[cnhoff]

Got it.

Kind of contradicts the being less costly argument of plywood, but are some of you using dampening materials like Bitumen used in car audio or speakers with your metal baseplates to dampen oscillations?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I have used dynamat on aluminum plate mounted to the seat to remove ringing.

 

[cnhoff]

Andrew, just so I get a better idea of what you have done...how much of the plate area have you covered with Dynamat?

Can you add a picture?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Andrew, just so I get a better idea of what you have done...how much of the plate area have you covered with Dynamat?

Can you add a picture?

No idea what is required minimum, just covered all of it. It was making buzzing and high pitched sounds in bare form.

 

[cnhoff]

Thanks Andrew.

I have not noticed high-pitched whine yet but have ordered some to experiment as it is not expensive.

What frequencies it rings on obviously depends on the dimensions and resonance frequency of the assembly.

 

[Mr Latte]

Applying Dynamat or similar to the primary surface the unit is attached to does not give the user any control over what frequencies it then is dampening or how much frequencies are dampened.

So it's likely a person could reduce performance (determining on how much dampening is used). Best to start with a little at corners or on the edges, then apply more with trial and error approach. Could get away with a bit less I think.

Different story if you are dampening a part of the rig to prevent vibrations going into the floor as then you want to reduce all frequencies as much as possible. What I see is the whole plate basically he has attached the BKs too, (primary component) being fully covered by dampening?

With DSP, using PEQ it should be possible to discover the "culprit frequencies" that are causing resonance and then reduce their amplitude. Different approach but with this, then you are not necessarily dampening other frequencies and tackling the issue in a more controlled manner.

Buttkcker & EarthQuake brands use "steel plates", not aluminum or wood.
Some woods can cause harmonic hum and reverb too, I would say steel for direct mounting is the best material choice. Many speaker stands are also made of steel or will use steel plates.

Keep In Mind
With Simhub we are not necessarily doing the same as "Home Cinema" with the .1 LFE sub out channels that most often are used under 80Hz and applied to wooden chairs or sofa frames.

Several effects with Simhub will generate frequencies well beyond an 80Hz crossover a "Home Cinema" uses for bass control. Also from an effects creation perspective, certain effects can be enriched with applied controlled/harmonic layers that are frequency matched on top of naturally generated harmonics from whatever fundamental frequency is used for the effect.

Sounds technical but it's a method we can apply sometimes to give a certain effect more body/presence.

 

[blekenbleu]

Buttkcker & EarthQuake brands use "steel plates"

Steel is stronger (and thus can be more compact) and cheaper to stamp out in bulk quantities.
It is also less liable to fatigue from vibration than aluminum.

Many speaker stands are also made of steel

Most of those would not be considered acoustically active.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Applying Dynamat or similar to the primary surface the unit is attached to does not give the user any control over what frequencies it then is dampening or how much frequencies are dampened.

So it's likely a person could reduce performance (determining on how much dampening is used). Best to start with a little at corners or on the edges, then apply more with trial and error approach. Could get away with a bit less I think.

My experience is different and the only thing I've lost was buzzing and whine.
In what application have you noticed reduced performance of the units?
I don't think dynamat or similar dampening materials even operate on low frequency ranges used to generate tactile effects, mostly high-frequency secondary harmonics inducing resonance.