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Opinions on R3E: What's yours?

This is fine for ppl happy to dry-lap. RRE has improved over time - but I'm in the, "this is an outdated platform now" club. Best way to vent my frustration = stop buying DLC. When S3 care enough to drag RRE into modern times, I'll restart support. I buy the DLC, yet hardly lap with it - makes zero sense. I'm fed up of dry lapping. it's a personal thing.

We had rain in sims many years ago, then it all went tits-up IMHO. YMMV of course, that's fine. Why were Microprose ahead of their time. How long have I supported this stale engine for now, jeez. I've been doing this for a great many number of years - too long (dry-lapping) tbh. Hence the frustration. Approaching my mid 50's, I'm going to be more selective about who I give my savings to. Free to play software isn't the future. Otherwise S3 would have taken RRE to a modern place already. RRE, feels like a pay-to-improve model to me. By that I mean, RRE just releases tweaks here and there, but the fundamental tech is missing. We own this sim software, but at a UK track, we can't create a cold/overcast/low grip/wet or even damp scenario.

Fair play to Kunos for gambling, and having the passion/balls enough to deliver what some of us long for. By that I mean, driving at differing times of the day, in low grip situations. I get that we all don't see this as the "be all" of simracing. We all have opinions about SMS. At least they could be bothered to create time of day/weather, and moved the genre along. S3 is holding back the only genre I purchase games from. I'm unhappy about this lol. RRE started to feel stale, years ago. Much like how people feel that Codemasters have stunted the growth of the F1 platform, in the many years they've had the licence. Like a huge number of you, I've sunk huge amounts into regularly supporting S3. I hope one day, that a scenario arrives where I look forward to booting the platform and using the content I've purchased.

I know SimBin UK supposedly works on a modern game engine, supporting time of day/weather. Both platforms will likely share the tech. For me, it long overdue. Sorry S3, this is the only genre I enjoy. You starved your own engine of the features I've wanted most for years. It can't get any more broken than it is. You'll get nothing more now, until you care enough to update your engine tech.

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I've made this a separate thread as a "catch-all" for people wanting to discuss the pros and cons of R3E, and what they think it needs in order to improve. Please keep that discussion here rather than derailing all patch/content announcements. Posts made in those threads that are deemed OT will be moved here or removed entirely from now on.

Also, everyone has an opinion and they are entitled to it, so please respect that fact. Keep this discussion mature and civil, without flaming, baiting, name-calling, accusations of fanboy-ism or hating, etc etc. Break our forum rules and your posts will be removed, and you may even find yourself with a posting ban. We're all adults here (mostly) so please act like it.

Thank you. :thumbsup:
i suppose what i like about r3e , is the vision the constant updates to the engine and the balanced approach to how to go forward
the idea that this is a long term platform , that sector 3 about faced a hard coded hot lap game , to something that it is today
the car classes and the tracks , the quality of what is produced , and updates to bring older cars in line with newer physics , the new tyre model slowly rolling out across all cars being one example

yes the graphics are dated , but they are balanced , triple screens are possible , vr works mostly
i like aswell they chose not to go down the road of r3e 1/2/3

so we dont have weather and day night transfer , this is very true and a lot of talk has been on this for a while , i believe that this will come but only when they can prove to themselve sthat they can have a balanced graphics engine that doesnt take away from the triple screens/vr and allows there high quality physics and ffb to work as before

with all of the features that are being added and tested and announced this will be a very mature game once a few barriers have been broken through

anyway , i like it , i have fun , yes there are aspects i miss , but i can find them somewhere else if i need too



Too much Goebbels
The only things I really miss in Raceroom is
A integral list of the individual laptimes in Practice and LB modes
An integral telemetry output to the real MoteC telem/anlyze tool
A simple possibility to paint your own car(dont care if others can see it)
A slightly better low speed TM so you cannot make pirouettes at about 50kmH (without any thr/br input)
Some numbers in the different menu settings(showing current custom settings values)

What I like is
The graphical display as it is
The extremely low PC ressource impact(CPU/GPU)
The 3D-ish sound
The general car behaviour(cockpit bounching)
Grip managing above 100kmH(high speed TM)
Great game but I wish 2 things, more work is done on the sound engine (I understand only so much can be done with the current engine until they transition to a new audio engine in the future with much expanded capabilities) and, more importantly, more work on the physics engine.

There's still very on/off sliding characteristics attributed back to the ISI/rFactor physics engine. I've slid real-life open-wheelers millions of times in real life but, in R3E, they do the all-too-common typical ISI physics engine behavior where:
- the car, under rear-slip, does a very sharp turn-in as if the car decided to turn to the inside of the corner very sharply rather than the rear of the vehicle rotate RELATIVE to the vehicle's original direction/path of travel.
- once you get some wheelspin, the difference between lots of wheelspin and snapping the rear or saving the car and stopping wheelspin & sliding is too small. In real life, while you have rear wheelspin and slip angle, you can modulate and change the amount of wheelspin in combination with adding or reducing steering angle, it's not so much an on/off affair - and often all while the car remains calm, collected, and controllable during a slide angle.
- In game, during slip angle, everything is way too "jumpy," intense, on/off, touchy, etc. Again it's too "all or nothing", either grip or a big snap, either no increase in slip angle or big increase in slip angle, it's extremely rare where you can controllably maintain a slip angle while adjusting that angle through throttle modulation and steering input modulation
- Another thing that often happens during wheelspin is that the car almost does not even respond to your steering correction unless you also combine it with a huge lift of the throttle; it's like the game ignores your steering correction and just keeps increasing and increasing the oversteer without responding to the opposite lock you apply. It's like once there's a little big of grip lost, all grip is lost and the vehicle behaves as if the tyres lost all contact with the ground (revs easily shoot to redline almost instantly with no resistance from tyres/grip) and as if the vehicle has lost all mass & inertia (vehicle way overly active and darting and springing around, no sense of buildup or mass to the vehicle's dynamic and kinematic forces).

My suspicions are that these issues stem somewhere in the physics engine but not (or at least partially not) in the tyre model. My reasoning and evidence behind this suspicion of mine is because these behaviors occur and are easily reproducible in any game based on the ISI/rFactor physics engine from 2003's F1 Challenge 99-02 and onwards (rFactor 1, Automobilista, rFactor 2) and even in games which apparently use a completely separate/different tyre model (Project Cars 1 & 2).

- Graphics-wise, I think R3E looks great and isn't lacking at all especially when using 3D and good anti-aliasing.
- U.I. wise, it's also fine.
- Multiplayer system, fine.
- All the different online challenges, cool.
- The way you can test drive cars you don't own, awesome!
- Lots of settings implemented in-game therefore you don't have to go into txt files so much like in some other games, great!
- Added physics "features" over the years like some drivetrain modelling, flat-spots (possibly still in beta, I'm not sure), stuff regarding damage, and other things, nice! Thanks you!
- Added A.I. More important than some realize. Thanks!
- Added true triple-screen support (3x independent viewports). Fantastic!
- Best pay-to-play system: free to play but content chargeable rather than charging for both (ahem, iRacing)...not to mention, content is generally priced very fair (especially packs during promos). Thank you, SImbin, you deserve lots of respect even just for this alone.

I guess the only things to look at besides what I personally feel above regarding sound and physics would be dynamic time-of-day, weather (rain), and all the stuff that comes with that like rubber build-up, rubber washing away, dry line appearing not just from decreasing rain but also from where the cars are driving (truly dynamically done, not scripted), puddles and different depths of water (preferably truly dynamically according to weather, environment, & track surface data like geometry rather than scripted), etc. All that weather and live-track stuff is probably a huge amount of work and I personally wouldn't be surprised nor would I mind if it doesn't come to Raceroom but I feel it really needs to be there for GTR3.
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@Spinelli good call on the tyre behaviour comments, that is something we've specifically been looking at and hope to roll out some improvements in that department over the coming months. We've seen some specific aspects which cause issues with grip linearity as well as making improvements to certain over-simplifications.

Regarding the audio system, where do you feel there's room to improve? Just asking out of curiosity.


Too much Goebbels
the tyre behaviour comments, that is something we've specifically been looking at and hope to roll out some improvements in that department over the coming months. We've seen some specific aspects which cause issues with grip linearity as well as making improvements to certain over-simplifications.
About a year back I posted this video where I tried to show that when Raceroom got into oversteering then it didnt obey even maximum steering input.
And yes I admit it would have been smart to include some speed indication - but trust me I wasnt warp-speeding:roflmao:
Raceroom tire model flaw
Maybe Raceroom should give their tiremodel a slight overhaul:) General understeer is ok but understeer that dont rotate even with max steering wheel position is not.
EDIT: For some reason you have to click the link to watch it on Youtube:poop:
I'm totally fine with RR graphics and physics. Love the amount of content (tho could bring the newer GTE and some P2 or DPi and more US tracks) and the way you buy it, especially for online.
But I cant get into a sim with no FCY (working race rules), no 24h cycle, no weather, no rejoin and with ghost cars (only acceptable if you make it happen due to high ping imo). I think all sims nowadays already lack a lot of immersion, to get into one without these features is senseless, would rather not drive.
If RR had all this I'd play nothing else. But since it doesn't the only option available is BugFactor 2. How long till one of you devs make an alternative? Seriously :rolleyes::(:cry::mad:
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For the life of me I cannot drive a track without blinking armco/ guardrails, and light posts. It is a large disappointment for me, and I have tried everything I know of to elevate this. I have a GTX 1070 on a stout computer, and AMS, rFactor2, Assetto Corsa, Assetto Corsa Competiione look terrific. If anyone knows of a solution or fix, I would greatly appreciate any help.
I'm torn on RaceRoom. The new tire model and physics that Neil has been working on with the Cup car and the GT1/GT2 cars is probably my favorite at the moment. The cup car in particular is something special.

The graphics are a bit of a letdown and the sounds are starting to get a bit old for me now (although they're still up there as some of the best). I don't necessarily need rain, but I would like to see a graphics improvement and i'm not sure how they make that work with their current pay model.

Hopefully, there's something in the near future. In the meantime, there's a big physics/tire model update for GT3's in December.
@SpinelliRegarding the audio system, where do you feel there's room to improve? Just asking out of curiosity.
I'll mention the following before getting to the more complex stuff:
I think a lot more can be done with the samples. For example, I've driven quite a few cars in real life like F1600s, F2000s, etc. and I think there's a lot of room to improve on the sounds of cars like the Formula Junior (F1600), the Tattus F4, the F3, etc. There's just...I don't know how to explain it...not enough "stuff" in the sound. It's just too...simple?? It's not brutal enough. There's no "life" to it. I feel like I can tell that I'm listening to a set of sound files rather than hearing noise naturally created from a physical mechanical object. I guess not enough complexity and depth would be the way to describe it? I also feel this for most cars (but not all) to be honest. For eg. I feel this for even the Formula 1 V8/V10/V12. There's just not enough complexity and brutality in the sound I believe. I play with real loud volumes so it's not about dynamic range nor outright volume (although high volumes help :) :) )

Now on to the more complex inner workings:
Here's an example of a cool method I read about:
We wanted to be able to take a channel from one recording, let’s say an intake, and match it with the exhaust channel of another car. And then add the engine channel from a third car, and maybe a little high rpm roaring from a fourth car at the very top rpms. So Anders built a tool where we could set one wave file as a master, and then add others as slaves. And all the slaves would get the same frequency curve and length as the master file. It was a bit of trial and error. Sometimes it didn’t work at all, sometimes parts of the new file sounded good, and sometimes it was a perfect match. This way, I could build ramps from several cars, fading in and out different characters where it sounded the best. By also using a pitch tool to stretch the top rpms, we could build a good base this way for the engine upgrades. On top of this we added looping layers and one shot sounds of different intakes, superchargers, compressors and so on.
source: https://www.asoundeffect.com/game-audio-vehicle-sounds-mad-max/

Also, here's a link to some tool they used called "REV:" http://www.crankcaseaudio.com

The method above is kind of similar to the granular synthesis used in Forza Motorsport & Horizon games. Basically, I'd love a R3E with more complex multi-layering, more complex crossfading and for more samples, more randomization and for more engine triggers, more sample channels, etc.

Also, more audio-engine-to-physics-engine connection where the physics engine plays a roll in sound generation itself - I think this could really bring a leap forward to sound. Richard Burns Rally, Live for Speed, and older versions of Netkar Pro did this but I think the technology was too new at the time. I don't just mean for in-car view but for the environments too. Using a system similar to Creative's old EAX 5.0 or Aureal's A3D where many more sound properties are taken accounted for and all sorts of objects in the environment (stands, walls, rooms, buildings, trees, mountains, glass, metal, bushes, etc.) affect sound in all sorts of different ways based on their material properties as well a physical/dimensional properties. Imagine having a physics based system which is generating or helping generate all sorts of complex and dynamically generated sounds each for the exhaust, intake, pops, bangs all dynamically connected to the physics/mechanics of the car as well as the environment (your car, other cars, buildings, bridges, walls, mountains, trees, humidity, etc.)? The potential is incredible!
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@Bob Laycock Genuinely curious - how frequently is your ISP down?
I used to live in an area of my city in which I could only get 2mb internet which routinely dropped connection. It may seem that in this day and age everyone should have access to good internet services, but the fact is that plenty of people still don't, even in so-called "advanced" countries. All games that feature single-player content should have a fully-playable offline mode, in my opinion.


Too much Goebbels
I think I understand your urge for even more deepness, complexity and immersion in the sound in raceroom.
But your examples point to complete different and not combineable solutions.
I admit that the REV tool sounds rather promising conserning treatening of the single sound samples - but your other rather superficial namedropping-ish (EAX5.0 and A3D) does refer to now abandoned sound formats that is incompatible with modern Windows(= post XP).:whistling:
The strange thing is that with newer graphic cards it actually became possible to re-introduce non-emulated HW-accelerated sound (ala EAX and A3D) but because of no agreement between AMD and nVidia (TrueAudio vs VRWorks Audio) no common format has been established.

For a more constructive discussion here it would probably be productive to split the discussion between
1. How to treat the single sound samples in Raceroom
2. Could a more advanced 3-D sound engine be an advantage (like the full 360 Ambisonic thingy)