Opinion | Racing In The Rain

[Romandevison]

Not often ride in the rain, but he should be in any self-respecting game.

 

[mantasisg]

You are probably right. But I dont really care about WHAT it is that penetrates the water layer and HOW water film works.
Im not about to make a dissertation

Well, excuse me for wasting my time, I am absolutely aware that no one gives a damn about anything that I know, I think or am curious about. I am completely aware that 99/100 of simracers doesn't care about anything meaningful. I am always aware that I mostly write monologues for myself. I completely don't care anymore what others think, because seems like they doesn't think at all.

 

[ACFAN]

I haven't really been happy with rain in games since Grand Prix 3 that was released in 2000.
Granted, GP3 didn't have proper wet physics in the sense that rubber gets slippery etc. But they did have rain moving in from one side of the circuit, so parts of the circuit got wet quicker, it also had drying line where the cars drove, it even had weather that could change numerous times during a race, with different strength of rain, so you really had to choose between inters, soft/hard wets and monsoon.

Seeing how rain in simulated in modern games, it feels like there's not really been much good development on this over the last 20 years. So I often end up being disappointed.

Agree 100%

Although I think ACC for me comes pretty close to the GP3/4 experience.

I still have a copies of both GP3 and 4. Such awesome games even today

I always have at lest 1 wet race in ACC whenever I play it. So I ticked the 25% of the time option

 

[MarkR]

Awesome video ...if there is a reason for me personally to get VR this video would be it ...thanks for sharing.

Thank you, I think you'd enjoy VR with your amazing rig too! Though I would think for a night wet race turning off the lights at night would give a pretty good impression of being in the car anyway. Our little Xbox racing group enjoyed your Wreckfest bus in cockpit/rig video on the banked track too, that looked as much fun as it is!

The thing with ACC in wet, night races is that it is possible to race flat out inches from the AI cars with full trust. It's also possible to read where they are slower and brake early and to plan to overtake as a result. It feels as close to real track time as anything yet, especially the way the front tyres are deflected a few degrees by standing water but can retain the general line. Yes sure the ACC AI could race each other a little more but it is in wet conditions by far the best we've got to date. PCARS2 did a decent job before that in moderate rain - deadly puddles aside.

A short real-world comparison

More people should give driving in the rain on a real track a go. With the many other comments about the rain being difficult/dangerous etc got me thinking back to the wettest track day I can remember where the track actually stayed open. There were puddles and streaming water everywhere and it was a load of fun. I thought I'd share a wet and dry lap from the same day as a comparison as to how different and difficult it can be in the wet.

Hullavington track day wet lap - Audi RS3

You'll see the track prepared MX5 on wet tyres having a moment at about 1m. I also included a couple of BMW 3 series spins at about 2.10 and 2.35 from the day as the RWD cars really struggled with the downpour. The Michelin Pilot Cup Sport tyres on the RS3 were superb even in these conditions.

Hullavington track day fast lap - Audi RS3

In the dry it's much easier to use all 400 or so bhp, this as fast a lap as I could manage on the day and the squealing and complaining from the Michelin's should give you an idea of that!

Driving fast on track in the rain is massively more challenging but something I think every sim/racing gamer who can should give a go at some point, it gives a whole new perspective on just how good some games like F1 2018/19 and ACC are at giving the impression and sensation of rain.

I love watching the endurance racers in the rain at Le Mans or the 'ring, especially multiclass with those massive closing speeds. I've experienced most things with cars and race cars that I want to but the last racing car related item on my bucket list is to take part in a 12 or 24-hour race, at my age I'll probably have to buy a seat so it's still a one day if the chance arises idea.

 

[BrunoBæ]

Well, excuse me for wasting my time..

You are hereby excused

 

[Cote Dazur]

 

[Koen Verlinde]

Less than 10%.

Mostly because of hardware issues, not because I fear a challenge or something.

 

[Alex Townsend]

Love racing karts in the wet and had some of my best results too. Sims I find it fun and a challenge too. Had dry quali yesterday at Monza and then a wet race. It was absolutely awesome and I really enjoy the wet weather physics.
Hitting the puddles and feeling the car lose grip for that split second with the sound of the water hitting the under tray is such a good feature to help with immersion.
All in all ACC is the closest I feel to how it must be like driving a GT3 car in the wet.

 

[Ture]

this is my opinion.
I love racing in the rain, but I love racing on dry even more.

 

[Yoori]

I would probably never set the conditions to wet. Though I'd love to be able to set let's say 30% chance of rain and have some upredactability in the race. Something random that makes you adapt and change strategy.

 

[Tzumba]

Seeing how much less grip there is in the "sim" games compared to real life, following the "less grip= more realistic" mentality, it's not hard to imagine why people almost never race in wet conditions.

 

[mantasisg]

@Tzumba And whats your mentality ?

There is no mentality about these things, there are real life wet track laptimes being recorded, and they usually are 10-20seconds and more slower in wet depending on how wet the track is, and the length of the track...

Your post has absolutely no observational value, and the video that you posted has hardly anything to do with the topic, apart that there were few tiny damp patches in the real life video, that were also hardly eve non the racing line.


Of course low grip and increased difficulty isn't making conditions more popular among people who already has zero ability to push a car to the limit in dry. Although wet track should work as evening out factor, but I guess that doesn't apply to those drivers who has no skill at all. The point you are making with your message is meaningless, and your imagination is very shallow.

 

[Tzumba]

First of all I never disagreed that racing in the wet isn't slower compared to dry conditions and that there isn't a general lack of grip (common sense).

The point I'm making here is that since games have overall much lower grip in dry conditions with less variables affecting the handling than in wet, compared to real life (because that's how both devs and a lot of players perceive realism), the handling in wet conditions is like driving on ice which is far from realistic. Also the fact that the behavior of the car is only felt through forces on a toy wheel (no matter how expensive) and subsequently down to the devs to make the forces communicative, doesn't help much with making a better and more believable experience.

Also, please refrain from using personal attacks. If you have a point to make, make it by using arguments, not insults.

 

[mantasisg]

Something is unclear with your logic and perception. If laptimes are like they are in real life, then net grip is correct and you should just adjust your perception and sense of speed in order not to feel like "on ice".

If you still think that grip is incorrect, but the laptimes are kinda fine, then you should look at how the grip is composed. Does peak seem too low, but it is very wide ? Is static friction suspiciously too low, and sliding friction too high ? Is highspeed sliding friction high, and low speed sliding friction low.... and so on.... you have to get a bit more technical.

So I disagree about "much lower overall" grip. I would suppose that you might be talking about static friction, which is the one that happens as tire roll without sliding, as slip angles and slip ratios increase it is gradually switching to kinetic (sliding) friction.

I think developers usually use lower static friction and higher sliding friction, or some sort of more predictable blending of those. This way making cars more predictable and forgiving, but perhaps more annoying and less sporty, while maintaining correct overall grip, which you then can perceive as laptimes. The actual perception of limits while driving changes a lot if you are forced to follow slip angles and slip ratios much more closely, it requires more concentration, more anticipation and makes learning curve more linear. And people want steep learning curves, so they get what they want...

 

[MarkR]

@Tzumba thanks for sharing the David Perel video, I hadn't seen that before and good to see his direct comparison of the real car/lap and game side by side. What he says certainly matches my experience of ACC and other sims - they are often slightly more difficult to drive than the real thing because of those missing forces and feedback from the car itself. I also agree that ACC has the closest feeling to a real car yet.

Imo that's also true for ACC in the rain, the grip levels and wheel feedback on the wet Silvertone track feel incredibly similar to reality, the nose of the car pushes wide into understeer as I'd expect and the car deflects a little through the deeper water as the suspension struggles to react to hitting standing water so that the whole experience is as difficult as it really is without being impossible (as for example in PCARS2 where puddles caused instant frustrating spins for the player car but not the AI). Adjusting the ACC TCS and ABS settings have a huge impact on car behaviour too and realistic setups work well. Of course, ACC in the rain isn't perfect but it's by far the best I've experienced in a game so far, surprisingly F1 2019 is also a satisfying wet track experience. I hope David Perel makes a direct wet weather comparison that would be great to see.

 

[BrunoBæ]

Interresting video.
Thank you for sharing.
I think he says something in the video about the difference regaining grip between RL and sims.
Its when he talks about how to catch/loose the rear end in sims compared to RL.

My own oppinion is that none of the existing racing games come even close to RL in this area.
It feels like if you as example loose adhesion in a corner and begin sliding at 100km/h - then you have to slow down to about 50km/h to regain adhesion.
In RL you will be able to regain adhesion (at least if you hasnt mistreated/melted the tires ) a few km/H´s slower than you lost it.
The only sim I know of who in some cars handles this issue slightly less bad than the rest is rF2 in as example the FR3.5.
iRacing at least up to v6 was/is completely hopeless - because you often did feel that it was easier to completely stop the car to regain adhesion than just try to get i back by gradually lowering the speed.

 

[mantasisg]

Yes and no. You must be way more technical on this issue, because it could be realistic either way. There are so many factors that has input to it, one of which is driver. If driver understood that tires are sliding way too late, I wouldn't say that a touch less of speed will surely solve the problem. But sliding speed should be indeed a big difference. But so countless other variables, and thats what the simulator is, it has to blend all those variables together, and then bring the results that respectably matches the actions of driver. So it can't be told that if car starts slipping at 100 km/h, then it should stop once it slows down to 90 km/h, it is way way way more complex. Aliens are aliens because they understand the limit so well that they can adjust all speeds, angles and accelerations as quickly and precise as it can be. Physically it is so complex and there are so many variables that the car might stop sliding itself once, and then other time slightest slip might be the end.

 

[DND]

@mantasisg please keep your responses respectful, there is no room for adding insults to a disagreement.

 

[mantasisg]

Please highlight where I was disrespectful. I am also sorry to be wasting my time. Anything I share seems not be important at all for public out there.

 

[Ashaz]

Imagine the 24 hour races on iracing, with a chanse of rain. I'd love that.