No grip at all in Formula Two

Bram Hengeveld

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Staff
Premium
Updated to the latest build and finally tested the F2 car. I try to do a few practice laps on Palm Beach and this car spins at 60km/h. <---- not joking.

This cannot be right or did I do something wrong here? This car is impossible to ride without a 360 spin in every corner.
 
Yes, but not more over the top than non-rubbered/dirty surfaces that behave like ice/wet.

My personal feeling, too much marketing for the masses. The so called 'track evolution' has become a must in most part of the latest games. The problem is that (this is my IMHO) the real grip difference between fresh and used track is not so noticeable for normal people (pro's excluded). There is A LOT of players basically unable to drive 10 laps within the same 0.500s, their inconsistency is bigger than the tenths slowly gained from extra grip. So, what do you do with a feature that most part of your customers don't perceive? You boost it until they notice, too dam much.

Anyway, that is general, I suspect Bram's problem is more specific to the F2.

And Marco80... well, what can I say. I have no idea of racing. Neither about the state of my daily washed by rain (dutch) street, nor basic economy (tracks used 10 days a year... Monaco and a handful more?). And Bram is obviously hating and trolling... in his own forums. Right.

P.S. I must say, there is an idiot with a black BMW in my area that takes the turn screeching, that moron would be terminal damage in half of the sims I've tried. For once I would like reality to be closer to sims, not the other way around.

Many ppl can take turns screeching in real life and in sims too, infact ppl probably take turns at the screeching point of tyre slip even more in sims because people are constantly pushing until, and well past the point of slight over or understeer in sims, where as in real life people stay under those limits much much more throughout a corners entire phase (from initial brake application all the way until the end of the exit phase).

I think the problem with regards to track rubbering at the moment, is that every track, at first, is treated like a brand new completely dusty and not used surface.

I am sure once the game progresses (or definitely in the official release version) there will be some kind of way to adjust the rubbering starting point, or the grip starting point or something along those lines, so that the track maker or the game itself can have a track that only gets 2 second faster once fully rubbered in, or one thy gets 5 seconds, etc etc.

It's just in an early state at the moment.

Remember this isn't a beta like mainstream betas that just need mostly glitch fixes, this is a beta that is having big time core software engine changes and additions from build to build. It's like an alpha. ISI are learning the engine more and more everyday :)

On a separate note, I also heard there is going to be options an settings where different compounds/constructions of rubber and different track surface characteristics will have a realtime effect on how the rubbering works. Not sure if this is true it just what I heard.

What I do know is true though, is that ISI are aware that the rubber build up happens too fast right now.

P.S. I must say, there is an idiot with a black BMW in my area that takes the turn screeching, that moron would be terminal damage in half of the sims I've tried. For once I would like reality to be closer to sims, not the other way around.

I read that wrong the first time, haha yes I know what u mean, especially around side streets, a kid can pop out out of nowhere, I have heard some very sad stories :(. Most ppl that drive their cars hard dont even know anything about handling technique, they just know how to drive hard until they hear some tyre screech. I bet most (but not all) of those idiots would be seconds and seconds off some of our times on a real race track.

They will either be many seconds off, or will be in the wall or gravel traps because they will push too hard without knowing proper technique of handling cars around the near limits area.
 
I bet most (but not all) of those idiots would be seconds and seconds off some of our times on a real race track.

They will either be many seconds off, or will be in the wall or gravel traps because they will push too hard without knowing proper technique of handling cars around the near limits area.

Don't come out with crap about people playing a sim (GAME) on a computer will be better at driving then other people in RL because they can control a car in a GAME very well.


Its like saying I am better at flying a plane because I have flight sim or better at driving a train because I have a train sim.


Do you know why you can push and drive on the limit of grip in a sim? Because its a sim, Its not real. and you don't have all the things you normally get in RL telling you to slow down and stuff.
I have got Rfactor Rfactor 2 Live for speed blar blar blar. i can do a x.xx round Y track in Z car on Y sim (GAME) so I must be a good driver in RL. I think I am crap on these sims and I am not as consistent in game as I am in RL because I always go over the limits in game because its just a game and it does not bother me at all because nothing will happen to me in RL by going 200mph faster than I should round a bend and crashing or flipping the car over.

Non Of the sims will ever be any were near racing round a track in RL there are just so many things going on in RL that 1's and 0's will never replicate them. All you have in a Sim is FFB on the wheel (and maybe a bit of sound) and thats it. In RL you have your hole body telling you whats going on. Feeling what the car is doing even smell can come into it.

All the big names back in the day and still running like LFS Rfactor iraceing F1 2001 or anything people allways say its the best and most realistic ever but every single one of them Feels different to each other. How can they all be the best and most realistic when there all so different.

O but XXXX has really good tyre physics or something. I am shore if you really wanted to calculate tyre physics in a realistic manner it would take more than a simple 2.4GHz Intel core 2 to do it.

Lunchtime rant over :)
 
2. To say that in rf2 the classic f2 has more grip than the modern f2 is completely wrong wrong wrong. That just proves that you are now not speaking facts, but simply hating or trolling.

The modern f2 corners at faster speeds and brakes in shorter distances than the classic, that means more grip for the modern one.
So because I opened a thread with a genuine question/feedback I am trolling? I know trolling is the sim racing word of 2012 by now but thats just absurd.

Maybe you should re-read what I actually wrote. Of course a modern F2 comes in corners with higher speeds than the classical cars but I think I clearly posted that I literally spun out with 120 km/h in the parabolica.

Also exiting the pitbox resulted in a nice pirouette and you can accuse me of hating and trolling but that doesn't even happen with a real life road car on non used road tyres on a racing track.

We are talking here about a highly advanced open wheel race car. You cannot make it spin with normal throttle values applied.

I will fiddle a bit with the setup in the coming days and if its really down to the stock setup maybe we can suggest to ISI that they use a better one as the default setting.
 
Don't come out with crap about people playing a sim (GAME) on a computer will be better at driving then other people in RL because they can control a car in a GAME very well.


Its like saying I am better at flying a plane because I have flight sim or better at driving a train because I have a train sim.


Do you know why you can push and drive on the limit of grip in a sim? Because its a sim, Its not real. and you don't have all the things you normally get in RL telling you to slow down and stuff.
I have got Rfactor Rfactor 2 Live for speed blar blar blar. i can do a x.xx round Y track in Z car on Y sim (GAME) so I must be a good driver in RL. I think I am crap on these sims and I am not as consistent in game as I am in RL because I always go over the limits in game because its just a game and it does not bother me at all because nothing will happen to me in RL by going 200mph faster than I should round a bend and crashing or flipping the car over.

Non Of the sims will ever be any were near racing round a track in RL there are just so many things going on in RL that 1's and 0's will never replicate them. All you have in a Sim is FFB on the wheel (and maybe a bit of sound) and thats it. In RL you have your hole body telling you whats going on. Feeling what the car is doing even smell can come into it.

All the big names back in the day and still running like LFS Rfactor iraceing F1 2001 or anything people allways say its the best and most realistic ever but every single one of them Feels different to each other. How can they all be the best and most realistic when there all so different.

O but XXXX has really good tyre physics or something. I am shore if you really wanted to calculate tyre physics in a realistic manner it would take more than a simple 2.4GHz Intel core 2 to do it.

Lunchtime rant over :)

That's not what I said, you completely turned it around. Try re-reading my post without your panties caught up in a bunch

Maybe you should re-read what I actually wrote. Of course a modern F2 comes in corners with higher speeds than the classical cars but I think I clearly posted that I literally spun out with 120 km/h in the parabolica.

I did re-read it, you said the classic f2 has more grip than the modern f2 in RF2, that is pretty absurd too.

The modern f2 has much higher cornering speeds, is much more planted under braking, cornering and accel, and can brake and accel much harder.

I agree, sometimes the oversteer feels awkward and harder to control than it should, like you said it's kind of a weird feeling even when getting wheelspin in a straight line out if the pits, it should be more controllable, but up until that point it is much, much much more planted than the classic f2, and has way more grip.

When ISI finishes the tyre and physics model, and finishes the f2 tyres and physics, I'm sure it will be better.
 
Bram, you're not totally off. Low-speed rear-end grip is a bit urgh to the point where early in a run you have to be really really careful to not spin around under acceleration, exacerbated by the track being green. I haven't driven a Formula 2 car in real life so I can't say if that's realistic or not, but it strikes me as a bit extreme at the very least.

For the classic vs. modern F2 - at low or low-ish speeds the modern F2 does not produce that much aerodynamical downforce and will be much closer to the behaviour of a classic formula car than at say 220kph. I'm not saying it's similar or the same, but the comparison is not a static one. At over 200kph the classic F2 would have nothing on a modern F2, but from there it does not follow that at 100kph the modern F2 should still be worlds better than the classic F2 because of the non-linearity of the aerodynamics.
At lower downforce levels the different power output of the engines also makes a difference. In the classic F2 you'll have to fight hard to instantly spin the tires in the same fashion you can with the more powerful modern F2 machinery.

And finally... beta testing physics is hard. Really hard. Generally speaking the physics guy/team will have some reference data, about engine output, suspension geometry, damper characteristics, tire width and such things. Those go into the physics modelling first. Then you make educated guesses for what you don't have exact data on. Then you fiddle with the whole mixture until happy.
Feedback on physics is... hard to judge, even for physics guys. If you and I tell ISI that the rear end lacks a bit of grip, how can they judge that feedback? The other beta testers might not have said anything, or only said that it's better than a previous iteration. Do they re-check or modify the values they have reference data for? Unlike beta testing tracks (which has its own issues), there is no visual real life counterpart to compare to.
And then you might have a real life driver without much sim racing skills come in and tell you "it has more/less grip when coming out of the garage, we have to be really careful about not spinning off the track" and you're in a real bind. It's hard to get right and you might not even know when it is.
 
Don't come out with crap about people playing a sim (GAME) on a computer will be better at driving then other people in RL because they can control a car in a GAME very well.


Its like saying I am better at flying a plane because I have flight sim or better at driving a train because I have a train sim.


Do you know why you can push and drive on the limit of grip in a sim? Because its a sim, Its not real. and you don't have all the things you normally get in RL telling you to slow down and stuff.
I have got Rfactor Rfactor 2 Live for speed blar blar blar. i can do a x.xx round Y track in Z car on Y sim (GAME) so I must be a good driver in RL. I think I am crap on these sims and I am not as consistent in game as I am in RL because I always go over the limits in game because its just a game and it does not bother me at all because nothing will happen to me in RL by going 200mph faster than I should round a bend and crashing or flipping the car over.

Non Of the sims will ever be any were near racing round a track in RL there are just so many things going on in RL that 1's and 0's will never replicate them. All you have in a Sim is FFB on the wheel (and maybe a bit of sound) and thats it. In RL you have your hole body telling you whats going on. Feeling what the car is doing even smell can come into it.

All the big names back in the day and still running like LFS Rfactor iraceing F1 2001 or anything people allways say its the best and most realistic ever but every single one of them Feels different to each other. How can they all be the best and most realistic when there all so different.

O but XXXX has really good tyre physics or something. I am shore if you really wanted to calculate tyre physics in a realistic manner it would take more than a simple 2.4GHz Intel core 2 to do it.

Lunchtime rant over :)

Still, quite similar in many aspects.

Yes, I have track experience.
 
The difference is that the old F2 is using bias ply tires, which are much more forgiving. For some reason someone at ISI still thinks that slick radial tires should be instant-spin at high slip angles, when it shouldn't, in my opinion that's the problem of the F2 car.

I also noticed (at least when it was launched) weird things, like reversed FFB after certain slip angles.
 
Do you know why you can push and drive on the limit of grip in a sim? Because its a sim, Its not real. and you don't have all the things you normally get in RL telling you to slow down and stuff.
I have got Rfactor Rfactor 2 Live for speed blar blar blar. i can do a x.xx round Y track in Z car on Y sim (GAME) so I must be a good driver in RL. I think I am crap on these sims and I am not as consistent in game as I am in RL because I always go over the limits in game because its just a game and it does not bother me at all because nothing will happen to me in RL by going 200mph faster than I should round a bend and crashing or flipping the car over.

Non Of the sims will ever be any were near racing round a track in RL there are just so many things going on in RL that 1's and 0's will never replicate them. All you have in a Sim is FFB on the wheel (and maybe a bit of sound) and thats it. In RL you have your hole body telling you whats going on. Feeling what the car is doing even smell can come into it.

The "in our sim we don't feel the car" argument is sometimes a bit boring. While it's true until at certain point, we can't ignore the physics flaws of some sims by saying that "in real life you feel the car".


This guy starts to correct the slide very, very late, and he is still able to save it. If that happened in most of our sims, the car would spin and a lot of people would justify it saying "it's because you can't feel the car like IRL" "we only have a FFB wheel".
 
Your video shows exactly how the Corvette feels in the new Corvette 2012 mod by Some1 and Niels.

You can save the car quite late, helped by the higher steering lock on street cars (higher rotation matched with fairly quick steering rack), I did just that yesterday, around Knutstorp.

The car went sideways over the crest, saved it but it went snapping the other way because it got light and "landed" again, it went around 45deg and with nearly a full rotation I got the car back straight, with the same chassis movement showed in your video.
 
i'm not going to complain as i paid for the beta and it's good ISI are trying to take time with developing a product.but i am a little worried.
i downloaded build 125 today at lime rock. it looked fantastic on max graphics. best i've seen so far. however, when i got in the trainer...i couldn't find my way onto the track at lime rock (fell down a hill, drove over a bridge and fell thru it lol) but far mor importantly, i had NO GRIP WHATSOEVER. i literally drove around the track in 2nd gear and the car was spinning at around 40 kmph. it seems that on this game, if you steer more than 10 degrees that back end comes out...in just about any car - particulalr f2, trainer and gt cars. this is surely not realistic.

my worry is that whilst many bugs will be fixed and cars introduced...the physics don't seem to be changing.theres some good drivers on here and they all spin in formula 2's. it's comical. great ffb, graphics,etc but fingers crossed. i can't play this game until the next build now:cry:

have to say, rfactor had more realistic physics but ...there's time i guess
 
i'm not going to complain as i paid for the beta and it's good ISI are trying to take time with developing a product.but i am a little worried.
i downloaded build 125 today at lime rock. it looked fantastic on max graphics. best i've seen so far. however, when i got in the trainer...i couldn't find my way onto the track at lime rock (fell down a hill, drove over a bridge and fell thru it lol) but far mor importantly, i had NO GRIP WHATSOEVER. i literally drove around the track in 2nd gear and the car was spinning at around 40 kmph. it seems that on this game, if you steer more than 10 degrees that back end comes out...in just about any car - particulalr f2, trainer and gt cars. this is surely not realistic.

my worry is that whilst many bugs will be fixed and cars introduced...the physics don't seem to be changing.theres some good drivers on here and they all spin in formula 2's. it's comical. great ffb, graphics,etc but fingers crossed. i can't play this game until the next build now:cry:

have to say, rfactor had more realistic physics but ...there's time i guess

You are way overdriving the thing.

Read ISI's write up about the car and on tips to drive it, just like in real life it rewards proper driving. You need to keep the weight transferred to the rear to keep it stabilized and you have to steer it with the throttle like in real life. Real life is also extremely twitchy and uses very little actual steering lock.
 
You are way overdriving the thing.

Read ISI's write up about the car and on tips to drive it, just like in real life it rewards proper driving. You need to keep the weight transferred to the rear to keep it stabilized and you have to steer it with the throttle like in real life. Real life is also extremely twitchy and uses very little actual steering lock.

i know about steering with throttle but there's literally no wheel movement or else ur down a hill. i will make a video tomorrow if i have time to show you and maybe you will see the problems. i wouldn't call 40kmph overdriving - i could barely kill a squirrel at that speed lol
 
You couldn't be more wrong with that statement.

I'm sure some mods will come out with dumbed down physics where you can just point the car and mash the throttle in the near future.[/quote

nothing to do with smashing throttle tbh and with a comment like that, doesn't sound like ur any more qualified than me to have an opinion. i just discard anyones opinion who can't be mature on the forums. no offence.
 
Does anyone have any good tips for setting up the F2 car (the modern one, of course)?

I have developed a love/hate relationship with this car. On some tracks seems to work better than in others, it has a great sound and when it's dialed in properly it can be an absolute blast to drive.

yet, on other tracks, especially tracks with slow hairpins or tight low speed corners is a handful and it just seems to be broken.

As I mentioned, the sound is glorious and very similar to the real life car, but the physics of the car seem to have a couple of serious weak spots. For instance, low speed turns are this car weak point. It seems that no matter what setup at low speed the car feels disconnected from the asphalt.
on turn exit the back constantly steps out but in doing so behaves as if it had a third wheel on a caster (as if free turning) positioned somewhere under the driver's butt.
The fulcrum of the car seems to exist in an undefined point beneath the car giving the impression that the front and rear wheels actually slide around this point rather that act as the traction pivot.

on faster turns this behavior us completely absent. The car carves the turn properly and it is in fact a very well behaved car and a lot of fun, but get to a hairpin and suddenly it's like you are driving on oil or gravel.

I have tried all different settings: high downforce, low DF, soft and hard suspensions (as best as I could manage given the strange units it uses) and while going soft and High DF does make thing a lot better at race speeds, at low speeds there is almost no difference.

In some tracks I experienced this behavior on medium speed turns too and maddeningly, on the same track other similar turns work just fine.

This behavior, incidentally, is not shared by the other cars in the game. For instance, the Formula Renault was also quite the handful when it came out, but a good setup solved a lot of the issues it had and traction at low speed was relative to its traction at higher speeds. By that I mean it behaves the way I would expect given the grip it has at medium and higher speeds.

The F2 instead seems to have a threshold that once passed makes the car lose all traction and you end up driving a bar of soap.

I am sure I am not the only one that noticed that. In fact I found several posts elsewhere describing to a T what I am trying to describe here, but I have never found any acknowledgment from ISI and even with the last release it hasn't improved at all.
 
The F2 tires are very very hard. You can basicaly run a P session a Q session and a Race with the same set of tires without any fear of a puncture. This and the fact that there is nearly zero downforce in low speed corners and a 500 HP turbo engine makes the car very slippery at low speed, which is probably very good for educational driving stuff. (some drivers are just 15 years old) Also the car is very responsive and pretty glued to the track at high speed.

You also need a reasonable amount of rubber in the track to enjoy it really. Maybe you've seen the F1 GP of America. Rossberg stated that the track was more twitchy than in rain at the first few P sessions.

I enjoy this car very much and I got used to it very quickly. Now when I jump into the FR 3.5 I allways think there is some sort of traction control. You can even visualy see the difference between the tires on the F2 and the FR 3.5. The 3.5 tires a wobling around all the time whereaas the F2 tires are rock solid.

My 2c.

Cheers
 
Is there any way to start a session with a rubbered in track? I tried the natural progressing and green settings but they felt identical to me. This sim drives me up the wall, i get so frustrated every time i try to venture out in an open wheeler i usually end up walking away before i chuck my steering wheel at the monitor. It just feels like no ammount of "babying" the car is enough, it goes from fine to snapping into a spin at a hair, i had to give in and add low TC (which helped me not come out of every damn corner backwards) but the car feels very twitchy under breaking, i don't understand how a car in 3rd decelerating suddenly snaps into a backward spin like that.

I'm FAR from a pro but every time i get in this thing it makes me want to give up. I have moderate success in other titles and gas and electric carting but this game is my bane. Literally makes me want to quit sim racing at times. :(
 

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