Next Level's new Traction Plus

[Hiro Abe]

Sooooo.... whose going to get one of these and report back?

 

[Jajohnsen]

@RCHeliguy, do you mind sharing a picture/description of your mount, I’m looking into doing the same.

 

[RCHeliguy]

@RCHeliguy, do you mind sharing a picture/description of your mount, I’m looking into doing the same.

I can describe it, but I haven't built it yet.

My plan is to take two pieces of 660mm 40x120 40 series profile.
2 x 660mm

40-4012

40mm X 120mm T-Slotted Profile - Eight Open T-Slots

8020.net

Measure the 6 x 8mm holes centered on each piece of profile to match the hole pattern of the Traction Plus attachment area.
Drill large enough holes through the top edge of the center slot for the bolt heads to fit through.
Drill 8mm holes through the center of the profile for through bolting.

Bolt the profile directly to the Traction Plus. I'm not sure of the exact length of M8 bolt needed to reach.

The Sim-Lab P1 chassis is 580mm wide.
The 660mm profile pieces would extend exactly 40mm on each side of the frame.

Bolt 3x 40 series corner braces on the outside of all 4 corners.
12 x 14075

14075

40 Series 2 Hole- 39mm Slotted Inside Corner Bracket with Dual Support

8020.net

Bolt one of these "40 Series 8 Hole - Gusseted Inside Corner Bracket" on each corner on the inside.
4 x 40-4338

40-4338

40 Series 8 Hole - Gusseted Inside Corner Bracket

8020.net

I believe that will give it an extremely solid connection.

I plan to remove the rear piece of 40x 160 profile from the chassis.
I also currently have a piece of 40x80 and 40x40 in the bottom front of my chassis to hold my power supplies, power outlet, USB hub.
Those will be removed as well.

The trickle down will be to
Mount my SC2 power supplies to the front 40-120,
Mount my Power strip to the same 40-120.
Center mount my 8 pole transducer plug and wire with longer cables with plenty of room for motion.
Add a short 14ga extension cord to my power outlet.
Add a short USB 3.0 extension cord.
I expect to have all 3 sets of cables centered and bound together covered with a protective sheathing.

 

[Jajohnsen]

Thank you for the description

 

[Mr Latte]

I'd love to see/hear more from owners how the felt immersion this gives compares regards the traction plus and the seat.
For instance, how is each without the other as compared to their combined usage?

Also what does this achieve that an SFX or other 4DOF type build and one with motion or G-seat might offer?

Just an idea:
Id like a breakdown on what effects feel best, or how users may like them configured with a given example.
What would be cool is for the same sim/car/track to be used and owners for the different motion to give their views/experiences on. Highlighting what they feel at different timestamps/parts of the track regards the track elements and cars handling.

If not here then somewhere, somebody make it happen

 

[RCHeliguy]

I'd love to see/hear more from owners how the felt immersion this gives compares regards the traction plus and the seat.
For instance, how is each without the other as compared to their combined usage?

Also what does this achieve that an SFX or other 4DOF type build and one with motion or G-seat might offer?

Just an idea:
Id like a breakdown on what effects feel best, or how users may like them configured with a given example.
What would be cool is for the same sim/car/track to be used and owners for the different motion to give their views/experiences on. Highlighting what they feel at different timestamps/parts of the track regards the track elements and cars handling.

If not here then somewhere, somebody make it happen

I could see this being highly contested.

Right now an NLRv3 + Traction Plus is about $9,000. On sale a bit less.
PTActuators has a 5-DOF system for $9500

Platform 4 Actuators + TL + Surge_Xuzhou PuTuo Machinery Technology Co.,Ltd_电动缸_普拓机械_徐州普拓机械科技有限公司

Finished platform by 4 Mega-Monster Actuator which mounted perpendicular+TL+Surge 1 set of AMC-AASD controller 6 set of AASD15A servo driver (flange size 80 with 750w) 4 set of floor contact cups 4 set of servo actuators ( speed:250mm/sfor

www.pt-actuator.com

This is where things get dicey and people could become highly opinionated, passionate, or even combative.

I have no doubt that the suspension travel feel is more realistic with a transducer in each corner.
I also have no doubt that the Traction Plus gives you the most useful information for driving your car at the edge of adhesion. I don't think that there is anything out there that touches it for what it does.

So the issue becomes what is more important and people are going to be strongly opinionated about this.

In Tactile I have mentioned many times that the only tactile effect that actually helps me drive is the Wheel slip that lets me feel the front end or rear end coming loose. So I personally think the Traction Plus will be helpful in terms of lap times. Even Barry said that the pivoting traction loss system on his SimExperience rig was not even close to conveying the feeling in the Traction Plus.

However I am aware of the limitations of the NLRv3. I like mine very much and I would argue that in a game like Dirt Rally it is actually superior to a 4 post solution especially when you are getting air, but on a track I think 4 posts win.

The NLRv3 has surge, but you really need an actuator based seat belt tensioner to rival the feel you get with a forward motion surge. I wouldn't be comfortable spring loading my shoulder belts to the frame because of putting extra torque on the two motors.

That is the other issue. My NLRv3 and a Traction Plus each have weight limits. So my Sim-Lab P1 as equipped is at the upper weight limit of the Traction Plus which doesn't give me warm fuzzies.

I personally think the best system would have a Traction Plus under it, and real surge and 4 corner suspension, but the Traction Plus isn't rated for that kind of weight.

So lots of pros and cons here.

It does make me wonder if NLR will have a Traction Plus V2 with say a 600lb or better weight capacity. I think that would accommodate the best possible solution.

 

[gmkump]

For instance, how is each without the other as compared to their combined usage?

For the NLR setup, as per using separately or together, I would say together is obvious since v3 and traction plus each provides a different set of motion that compliments each other, not compete. Hitting a front wheel on a high corner in a sharp turn has the v3 raise the seat to simulate that side wheel raising while at the same time the traction plus is delivering to you a feeling of the rear end losing traction and whipping around the corner providing a pretty awesome, but natural feeling. Even the big "clunk" as the wheel hits the road again. I kept intentionally hitting that high corner at too much speed to whip the rear around just to keep getting this orchestrated motion between the two platforms.

If I turned either platform off, it would feel dead to me now. There is no way I should have one on and not the other.

Comparing to other platforms, I would need to have them side by side and test running both. I could not judge otherwise.

 

[5teveC457]

It seems most of you are using VR with the Traction Plus, but how is it when using triple monitors? Does it seem odd at all that you are moving side to side while the monitors stay stationary, or is it really a non-issue? I would imagine you wouldn't really notice, but would like to hear thoughts from actual owners.

 

[adrienvinches]

I plan to remove the rear piece of 40x 160 profile from the chassis.

Hi @RCHeliguy,
Very good idea, thanks for sharing the description and links, very useful!
Completely agree on the fact that it will be a very solid connection. Let me know if you had a chance to build it.
Just a question as I have the exact same setup as yours (sim lab P1-X and NLR motion v3 and traction plus), why are you planning on removing the rear 40x160 profile from the P1-X? ( just to make sure I am speaking about the correct piece of profile, I took a pics from the SRG and annotated on it, let me know if it is the one you are mentioning)
Let me know, thanks

 

[RCHeliguy]

Yes, That is the one I was talking about.

However, I hate to say it, but I just jumped the shark and I may not go down this path.

I saw this new motion system by the same parent company and fell in love! I don't know if it is feasible yet. They haven't published a price, but it looks like exactly what I would like as an end game solution and it makes me want to wait off a bit. I may even have to wait for my next house before this would work for me, but it looks like a nearly optimum solution for all my motion needs. Sadly it makes everything else I've seen look hobbled together now and I may have problems getting over that.

That 6 DOF PT Actuator system that Barry is currently working with looks EXTREMELY clunky and old school compared to this. This is what motion should look like.

For something like this my seat brackets would attach directly to the deck, and my pedal section would attach directly to the deck. Basically the entire H frame would disappear. I would likely mount my power supplies etc under the deck.

Anyway, this is the absolute first motion system that I have looked at that seems "right" all the way around from an engineering standpoint and just like that putting my current NLRv3 chassis on a Traction Plus doesn't hold any appeal to me. I feel like I've seen nirvana, and I'll wait for it.

 

[gmkump]

This 6DOF setup is done by the same company that did the NLR Traction Plus. It is all about price point and where you are willing to go with it. I look at NLR v3 and Traction Plus as a mid-range price point solution (both built by MotionSystems), while the 6DOF is probably targeted at the upper middle range. So 9K for NLR total setup, wonder what the 6DOF setup will be?

I loved the video, something to consider in future as an upgrade (once the reviews and final judgement is made), but I'm perfectly happy with the NLR v3 + Traction Plus solution MotionSystems has delivered so far.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

Yes, That is the one I was talking about.

However, I hate to say it, but I just jumped the shark and I may not go down this path.

I saw this new motion system by the same parent company and fell in love! I don't know if it is feasible yet. They haven't published a price, but it looks like exactly what I would like as an end game solution and it makes me want to wait off a bit. I may even have to wait for my next house before this would work for me, but it looks like a nearly optimum solution for all my motion needs. Sadly it makes everything else I've seen look hobbled together now and I may have problems getting over that.

That 6 DOF PT Actuator system that Barry is currently working with looks EXTREMELY clunky and old school compared to this. This is what motion should look like.

For something like this my seat brackets would attach directly to the deck, and my pedal section would attach directly to the deck. Basically the entire H frame would disappear. I would likely mount my power supplies etc under the deck.

Anyway, this is the absolute first motion system that I have looked at that seems "right" all the way around from an engineering standpoint and just like that putting my current NLRv3 chassis on a Traction Plus doesn't hold any appeal to me. I feel like I've seen nirvana, and I'll wait for it.

It won’t be cheap, they also do a beefed up NLR V3 which is 3x the price so it’s not a case of the NLR stuff being the best they can do it’s literally engineered exactly for what NLR want to hit a price and the cheapest thing they make.

Watching that video though the actuators don’t have a lot of travel which kind of defeats the purpose of those style of rigs and the floor space they need is just insane.

They are definitely the better solution for 6DOF though in terms of design simplicity.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Watching that video though the actuators don’t have a lot of travel which kind of defeats the purpose of those style of rigs and the floor space they need is just insane.

They are definitely the better solution for 6DOF though in terms of design simplicity.

I doubt that the full range of motion was being shown driving on a track.
I've been told that the QS-S25 is not being marketed as a consumer product and that there will not be an NLR branded version of it.

I still think that the Traction Plus looks like a great product and I'm not trying to take away from it.

However, I'm backing off on doing anything for now.

Their full gimbal flight rig looks extremely impressive in terms of motion. Since they say it supports VR, I would be very curious how they handle that inside the cabin. Maybe an inside/out headset could handle it. It doesn't seem capable of offering the type of displays that would make it immersive. I already know without asking that this large 7 kW device is made for commercial use only.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

I doubt that the full range of motion was being shown driving on a track.
I've been told that the QS-S25 is not being marketed as a consumer product and that there will not be an NLR branded version of it.

I still think that the Traction Plus looks like a great product and I'm not trying to take away from it.

However, I'm backing off on doing anything for now.

Their full gimbal flight rig looks extremely impressive in terms of motion. Since they say it supports VR, I would be very curious how they handle that inside the cabin. Maybe an inside/out headset could handle it. It doesn't seem capable of offering the type of displays that would make it immersive. I already know without asking that this large 7 kW device is made for commercial use only.

Oh I know there won’t be an NLR version I’m just saying the NLR stuff is built for a specific cost/performance. A traction + system that could hold my rig and weight would be at least 2x the price.

It was more to say that rig will be at least 20k unfortunately even building yourself it’s probably going to be 10k because of all the custom pieces you need and then floor space is an issue still.

Cool as that flight cockpit is even if I had the money I still wouldn’t fit, just like I’ll never get to try a single seater as I’m too tall .

 

[RCHeliguy]

It was more to say that rig will be at least 20k unfortunately even building yourself it’s probably going to be 10k because of all the custom pieces you need and then floor space is an issue still.

The PT Actuator 6 DOF system is already 10K using standard profile. So I doubt you could DIY anything close to the QS-S25 for less than 16K for the parts, and there would still be a LOT of trial and error and man hours. Just as importantly, you wouldn't have the tightly integrated software and VR motion compensation. That would be a DIY adventure I wouldn't want to touch with a 10 foot pole. Lots of cost and lots of risk.

Realistically I feel like the controls I have right now could last me as long as I'm doing this and I'm happy with them. I may play with my tactile some over time, but keeping my current rig weight low enough to be able to put it on the Traction Plus is starting to feel wrong. It is hindering potential future modifications and is already requiring I remove weight from my rig so that it is no longer convertible for flight. I'm just not sure it is worth it to me.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

The PT Actuator 6 DOF system is already 10K using standard profile. So I doubt you could DIY anything close to the QS-S25 for less than 16K for the parts, and there would still be a LOT of trial and error and man hours. Just as importantly, you wouldn't have the tightly integrated software and VR motion compensation. That would be a DIY adventure I wouldn't want to touch with a 10 foot pole. Lots of cost and lots of risk.

If Motion Systems sold it for 20K, they would be losing money. On top of that it will be low volume, so to get their one time engineering costs back it will have to be priced a chunk higher. I realize that it is more than I could justify for my personal use.

You should have a proper look at their site rather than just watching popular videos. They have 450mm 500mm/s actuators with a kit of 6 to build the same thing you posted for $7k and looking at forums it’s very possible to build a rig to attach to it and I’m sure you could get a metal worker to build something for $3k if you were so inclined. If not they gave another one with a platform to put any right you like on top for ~25k.

Anyway I know you only want these pre-made systems with “dedicated software” so I won’t go into it anymore but I don’t use any motion compensation when I game in VR because I don’t thinks it’s needed but there are programs which can do it just as well as their ones too, I don’t really know why you are putting up barriers for yourself without even trying.

 

[Astro11]

Hi all

NLR traction plus + 3 pcs of pt actuator set up might good And with some buttkicker

 

[RCHeliguy]

I don’t really know why you are putting up barriers for yourself without even trying.

First I am an engineer and I have put products into production. When I look at the DIY hexapod systems out there that people are building I'm not impressed. I look at them and think, that is going to fall over, that wasn't designed properly, that looks very frail or someone is going to get hurt on that. I have yet to see one that made me think, cool, someone got it right I could see building something like that for me. I couldn't even imagine bolting a direct drive wheel to most of the ones I've seen. I guarantee your estimate for what it would take to build something comparable is grossly low. Everyone always mentions prices for one of the ultra light weight systems that look flimsy.

As a COMPLETE contrast, it was obvious just from looking at the QS-S25 that it took a substantial effort to create it. Everything looks correct in obvious ways. Its payload rating is pretty stout too. I would bolt controls and the seat directly to its deck eliminating the need for a full chassis, but it has a payload capacity that would comfortably hold the weight of my Sim-Lab P1 with me in the seat.

From a hardware standpoint the QS-S25 is solid and has safety features like an electromagnetic safety brake. But past that their software will drive it confidently and support just about every title out there out of the box.

I've looked at the software available to drive hexapods and it looks both complex and primitive. I've used the Control software the Next Level Racing uses, which is the same as what Motion Solutions uses and it just works and works well and is extremely easy to configure.

There are no viable DIY hex systems out there that I would remotely consider from either a hardware or software standpoint. They simply do not exist.

Below are the two DIY hex systems I've found that look like they might be hefty enough, but both are very primitive looking.

This guy is almost hitting the ceiling. For safety he built up a floor around this system rather than using a ladder like I've seen on some. Given the geometry of this, it is likely through bolted to the floor or it would tip over.

How about this beast?
It looks stout and doesn't put your head in the ceiling, but it's still huge and clunky even with all the custom tubing.

Now just look at this by comparison. If you can't see the VAST number of differences between the DIY stuff and this product, I don't know what to tell you. The ergonomics alone are MASSIVELY improved.

Getting these things right takes time and effort. If I started one of these DIY Hex systems I would absolutely spend way more money iterating on it for many years and I doubt I would ever be happy with it. In fact the materials and my time for a DIY system would put me well over what a QS-S25 would cost me just to get iteration one complete.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

First I am an engineer and I have put products into production. When I look at the DIY hexapod systems out there that people are building I'm not impressed. I look at them and think, that is going to fall over, that wasn't designed properly, that looks very frail or someone is going to get hurt on that. I have yet to see one that made me think, cool, someone got it right I could see building something like that for me. I couldn't even imagine bolting a direct drive wheel to most of the ones I've seen. I guarantee your estimate for what it would take to build something comparable is grossly low. Everyone always mentions prices for one of the ultra light weight systems that look flimsy.

As a COMPLETE contrast, it was obvious just from looking at the QS-S25 that it took a substantial effort to create it. Everything looks correct in obvious ways. Its payload rating is pretty stout too. I would bolt controls and the seat directly to its deck eliminating the need for a full chassis, but it has a payload capacity that would comfortably hold the weight of my Sim-Lab P1 with me in the seat.

From a hardware standpoint the QS-S25 is solid and has safety features like an electromagnetic safety brake. But past that their software will drive it confidently and support just about every title out there out of the box.

I've looked at the software available to drive hexapods and it looks both complex and primitive. I've used the Control software the Next Level Racing uses, which is the same as what Motion Solutions uses and it just works and works well and is extremely easy to configure.

There are no viable DIY hex systems out there that I would remotely consider from either a hardware or software standpoint. They simply do not exist.

Below are the two DIY hex systems I've found that look like they might be hefty enough, but both are very primitive looking.

This guy is almost hitting the ceiling. For safety he built up a floor around this system rather than using a ladder like I've seen on some. Given the geometry of this, it is likely through bolted to the floor or it would tip over.

View attachment 374065

How about this beast?
It looks stout and doesn't put your head in the ceiling, but it's still huge and clunky even with all the custom tubing.
View attachment 374066

Now just look at this by comparison. If you can't see the VAST number of differences between the DIY stuff and this product, I don't know what to tell you. The ergonomics alone are MASSIVELY improved.

Getting these things right takes time and effort. If I started one of these DIY Hex systems I would absolutely spend way more money iterating on it for many years and I doubt I would ever be happy with it. In fact the materials and my time for a DIY system would put me well over what a QS-S25 would cost me just to get iteration one complete.
View attachment 374069

I mean that second one at least is just terrible cable management. Other than those rods I don’t actually like the look of the motion systems one too many bolts everywhere and my experience of that kind of steel sheet is it still flexes.

Also one thing I don’t get is why in a lot of these rigs with high end motion they’re using a low end plastic wheel?!

For comparison:

A modified SFX-100 rig with surge, traction loss front and back, and seat belt tensioner, 8 motors no EMI or high pitched whine as it uses more expensive DC motors and still clocks in at less than 10k. As you can see the design is much more compact than the others and the owner has gone to the effort of actually doing cable management and hiding electronics and that isn’t the finished article either.

Anyway I get your point but I’m saying it could be done.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Anyway I get your point but I’m saying it could be done.

Never said it couldn't be done, just that the results are nothing I would want to own.

 

[adrienvinches]

Yes, That is the one I was talking about.

However, I hate to say it, but I just jumped the shark and I may not go down this path.

I saw this new motion system by the same parent company and fell in love! I don't know if it is feasible yet. They haven't published a price, but it looks like exactly what I would like as an end game solution and it makes me want to wait off a bit. I may even have to wait for my next house before this would work for me, but it looks like a nearly optimum solution for all my motion needs. Sadly it makes everything else I've seen look hobbled together now and I may have problems getting over that.

That 6 DOF PT Actuator system that Barry is currently working with looks EXTREMELY clunky and old school compared to this. This is what motion should look like.

For something like this my seat brackets would attach directly to the deck, and my pedal section would attach directly to the deck. Basically the entire H frame would disappear. I would likely mount my power supplies etc under the deck.

Anyway, this is the absolute first motion system that I have looked at that seems "right" all the way around from an engineering standpoint and just like that putting my current NLRv3 chassis on a Traction Plus doesn't hold any appeal to me. I feel like I've seen nirvana, and I'll wait for it.

@RCHeliguy, Agree, this looks simply awesome but probably way above what I can afford.
Thanks for confirming which part it was. Could you just tell me why were you thinking on removing this rear profile from the P1? I will give your technic a try so I want to make sure I have everything right, and this is the last point remaining.

Thanks