New Laguna Special Motorcycle Controller by IASystems

[doubledragoncc]

Hi to everyone again. Ive been away from here trying to get the new designs of my Bike Controllers finished and build the Laguna Special designed for use by EBay Motors and other companies at race meetings for the general public to use. Here is the link for a quick video of the Laguna Special and GP Bikes Alpha 7. More videos of use in other Bike games like SBKX, GP500, MX Simulator, TDU1, TDU2 and a full picture set will follow shortly. The Laguna Special is the exact dimensions of a real Suzuki GSXR and uses an original GSXR seat. Riding it can be a real workout just like on a real bike and makes it so much fun to use, especially in GP Bikes. I am just trying to get it up on all the forums and all the specs will be posted soon.

Here are a few pics of the MK2 version.

BTW thats the Mad Professor, not me, Im not that old yet. Great to be back and I wish you all a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
DD

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I agree, you push left to go left, I ride bikes for real both on the track and road......as my avatar shows

 

[doubledragoncc]

Hi guys. Great video RC45. I think you should study my video better, it is only a short one but you will see that if I want to go left, I lean left, and its natural movement, BUT the actual pushing is right, but you dont think your pushing right, so it works out to be very natural and feel better than TOYS LIKE GAME PADS!!! as this is NOT a TOY. I have had professional racers use it and they ALL think it feels the best they have had from any controller. I taught a 7 year old girl on it and she could ride a lap without crashing after only half an hour!

You want to keep insulting me RC45 but the reality is I am a professional medical rider and my training went past that of the police standards. I have been ask to develop this system for Police training as it works. You have not used it and have obviously not thought before you have posted your comments. Please think about it and you may be surprised at what you learn. I hope you do not take this the wrong way RC I am not the best at writing lol, give me a wrench any day over typing.

Sorry to get a bit protective but I have not just thrown this together, I have spent years testing all different ways to do the steering and this is the most natural for a static system keeping the costs as low as I can.

I will try to make some more videos that show my point a lot better. I am waiting to hear back from several bike dealers that wish to demo the systems in their shops so hope to get some good videos for you soon.

 

[RC45]

You keep saying pro racers are endorsing your controller. Then either they are just being polite, or you are totally missing the meaning of "Push left go Left".

I want to hear what PRO racers would endorse a 'push right go left' controller as a learning tool. Anyone that learns to ride by thinkin gyou 'push right to go left' will steer directly into the object they are trying to avoid.

When we say the "push left" part, we mean you push with your left hand, that causes the steering stem and handle bar to turn to the right.

When we say the second part "go left' we mean that the bike goes to the left after we push our LEFT hand turning the bars to the right.

If in fact with your controller you are using your LEFT hand to PUSH handle bar to the RIGHT while causing the bike to go LEFT then you are in fact practicing 'push left go left'.

With regard to 'police training', when the police start training world champion winning racers then I will pay attention to their training or their endorsement - until then I will stick to what Keith Code et al teach when it comes to advanced motorcycle control thank you .

So - back to your controller, you keep telling other people to think before they post, we have thought - long and hard - and I am coming to the conclusion that if legitimate professional motorcycle road racers are actually endorsing your controller then you have to in fact be using a 'push left go left' control method - if not these 'pro road racers' are full of it.

 

[doubledragoncc]

You keep saying pro racers are endorsing your controller. Then either they are just being polite, or you are totally missing the meaning of "Push left go Left".

I want to hear what PRO racers would endorse a 'push right go left' controller as a learning tool. Anyone that learns to ride by thinkin gyou 'push right to go left' will steer directly into the object they are trying to avoid.

When we say the "push left" part, we mean you push with your left hand, that causes the steering stem and handle bar to turn to the right.

When we say the second part "go left' we mean that the bike goes to the left after we push our LEFT hand turning the bars to the right.

If in fact with your controller you are using your LEFT hand to PUSH handle bar to the RIGHT while causing the bike to go LEFT then you are in fact practicing 'push left go left'.

With regard to 'police training', when the police start training world champion winning racers then I will pay attention to their training or their endorsement - until then I will stick to what Keith Code et al teach when it comes to advanced motorcycle control thank you .

So - back to your controller, you keep telling other people to think before they post, we have thought - long and hard - and I am coming to the conclusion that if legitimate professional motorcycle road racers are actually endorsing your controller then you have to in fact be using a 'push left go left' control method - if not these 'pro road racers' are full of it.

IM STARTING TO LIKE YOU DUDE LOL. I am fully aware of what you are saying and thank you for the input. I would love to have you ride one of my systems, then see you post your response, I think you would be sucking on those eggs lol. Your actually the kind of person I need to realize reality. I watched your video and it seems you can ride and have balls, my system allows you to feel that without motion purely because the action is natural. If you sit on it and ride, you come to a curve and need to lean so much into that curve the southern pendulum system allows you to do it without thinking. ITS A NATURAL MOVEMENT. If a 7 year old girl can do it why cant you? BTW I would love to talk to you so if your in the USA call 954 557 4479. I do like your input but you need to really understand this shits been tested to the max.

 

[doubledragoncc]

Oh BTW I would not go about saying pro racers are full of it, just a point to think on

 

[RC45]

Actually, any pro rider (or any rider for that matter) that endorses a tool that promotes 'Push RIGHT to go LEFT' as a learning tool is full of it.

Period.

Push left go left is instinctive, but when people panic and they don't know better, they try TURN LEFT to go left (which is in fact Push Right to go Left) and instead of turning away from the obstacle they turn towards it.

So again, any rider that promotes Push Right to Go Left is full of it

This is why I am thinking that your system is a Push Left Go Left system (or at least it FEELS like a Push Left Go Left system) and you didn't realise it. Well, you realised it is only because it FEELS instinctive, not because you are actively THINKING Push Left Go left.

Grab Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist - I think if you start promoting your controller in the correct context you will have a winner on your hands.



I have a couple spare bikes/frames/tanks/GP bodywork laying around and may be interested in the steering assembly and peg components of your controller to build into a bike if the system responds to Push Left Go Left input.

 

[museumsteve]

I've got really confused about ths talk of push this way go that way and I've ridden bikes for over 30 years :s
Can you explain the context..push what left?
The way I see it is I'm on a bike, if I want to go left I lean left and if needs to be sharper I'd pull my left hand in at the same time as pushing my right hand out. Is that classed as push left (as my right hand is pushing the handlebars and front wheel to the left) go left?
I would assume the OP means push right as in push right hand and bike goes left.
Maybe it's just communication hiccup between you guys

lol..I think I missed a couple of posts above..sorry chaps :s (there was me trying to be a samaritan )

 

[RC45]

I've got really confused about ths talk of push this way go that way and I've ridden bikes for over 30 years :s
Can you explain the context..push what left?
The way I see it is I'm on a bike, if I want to go left I lean left and if needs to be sharper I'd pull my left hand in at the same time as pushing my right hand out. Is that classed as push left (as my right hand is pushing the handlebars and front wheel to the left) go left?
I would assume the OP means push right as in push right hand and bike goes left.
Maybe it's just communication hiccup between you guys

lol..I think I missed a couple of posts above..sorry chaps :s (there was me trying to be a samaritan )

museumsteve, I am willing to bet $1000 you are afraid of going faster around corners because you never seem to be able to make a bike turn quick enough fo ryour own comfort.

THe reason is that you are actually trying to FORCE the motorcycle to stand up and SLOW its turning because you have learned the WRONG way to ride.

Period.

2 wheeled tandem axle vehicles do not initiate turns the same way that 3 and 4 wheel vehicles do. IA car or tricycle turn by way of a steering stem turing the front wheels into the turn.

In other words, you take the steering controller and turn it towards the LEFT to make the vehicle start to go left.

This is what you are doing when you ride. You say you are taking your left hand and pulling it TOWARDS you while you push your right hand AWAY from you in an effort yo turn to the LEFT?

If this is the case, you are lucky to still be alive after 30 years.

What you are doing everytime you are trying to turn left is FORCE the bike to start turning towrds the RIGHT.

This is why you have incorrectly taught yourself to first lean to the left - because you have to try FORCE the bike over to the left as you have actually steered the bike to the RIGHT because of your INCORRECT steering input.

You are not steering the bike when you lean to the left - you are simply fighting the bike that is trying to go the right.

PUSH LEFT GO LEFT means what it says.

You PUSH YOUR LEFT HAND FORWARD and the bike WILL TURN TO THE LEFT.

To steer a motorcycle you must TURN THE STEERING STEM to the RIGHT to initiate a LEFT HAND TURN.

The way your turn the steering stem to the RIGHT (which will in steer the bike left) is by PUSHING YOUR LEFT HAND FORWARD.

I am using capital letters for ephasis here.

Long time riders who have been taught/learned the wrong methods scare me. I fear for your safety as the day you have to steer quickly away from an obstacle is the day you MUST by way of INSTICT employ PUSH LEFT to go LEFT or PUSH RIGHT to go RIGHT.

If you try PULL LEFT to GO to the LEFT (rather than PUSH), you will not go left, you will in fact turn to the right (as you are actually pushing right) and hit the object you tried to avoid.

Employing your current incorrect method you cannot speed up your turning - if you are in a turn and need to tighten your turn radius, you would apply more PUSHING force to the inside handle bar, PUSH LEFT and the bike turns tighter to the LEFT - but in your case, you are PULLING on the left bar, and all you are doing is forcing the bike to try broaden and slow the turn - you are in fact forcing the bike to try run wide... your 30 year old method is wrong.

Do me favour, the time you go for a ride, gently push the left hand bar and report back to us which direction your bike tried to go.

Also I implore you to buy Twist of the Wrist by Keith Code and help yourself extend your riding career by another 20 years.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

This whole discussion has gotten me interested, i know about as much of bike dynamics as Saddam Hussein did on make-up but i made a picture just to see if i get what you are saying.

Imagine this being from above, black patches are contact patch, and the bike is leaned to the left making a left turn as seen by the thin red line.
What you are saying is that by pushing left you go left, meaning push left bar forward, right bar towards you.

Correct?

Is this something you do through the whole corner? or just on throttle exit?

 

[RC45]

This whole discussion has gotten me interested, i know about as much of bike dynamics as Saddam Hussein did on make-up but i made a picture just to see if i get what you are saying.

Imagine this being from above, black patches are contact patch, and the bike is leaned to the left making a left turn as seen by the thin red line.
What you are saying is that by pushing left you go left, meaning push left bar forward, right bar towards you.

Correct?

Is this something you do through the whole corner? or just on throttle exit?

Hampus, you are correct in your diagram.

But the pressure is a constant applied throughout the turn - not at the ext (in the exit youactually tug on the bar to stand up if need be) - and if you want to tighten the turn you hang off the bike on the inside, and apply more pressure to that left inside bar.

You achieve the rotation of the bike by way of the pressure on the inside bar, you unload the suspension and give yourself more ground clearance by hanging off - this all translates to you being able to tighten the turn without needing to lean the bike over more. (This is in an effort to manage the contact patch - another discussion entirely)

But the basic key and essential effort being fed into the bars that allows the bike to turn (or tighten the turn), is the COUNTER STEERING LEFT HAND PUSHING force applied to the left bar.

If you wanted to slow the steering, you lessen the pressure on that inside bar, perhaps even tugging on it to get the bike to begin standing up and run wide. That tugging would be the same as initiating a PUSH RIGHT to turn TURN RIGHT.

 

[Lee Knight]

It all depends on the circumstances Hampus & SO much of it happens at a subliminal level....
At low speed you point the (front) wheel where you want to go but once your moving well enough gyroscopic forces come into play & take over & the best way to get an idea of whats happening next is to take a bicycle wheel spinning at speed held between your hands & see what happens when you tilt its axle horizontally...
On a motorcycle, at speed, what you need to do for properly responsive steering is to use these forces to your benefit...
So, when you decide to tip into the corner you steer in the opposite direction (only a really small amount is necessary) to force the bike to 'fall' away from the input direction then through the corner it becomes a balancing act of throttle & steering input...
Hard throttle & you may need to continue opposite direction steering or for no throttle you may need to just lean with no steering or even point into the corner slightly....
Then on exit you either throttle on harder if possible OR you can actually steer INTO the corner further causing the bike to stand up.
I road a couple of times a late 60's TR120P (yes a proper SAINTy!) which had very low power out put & ancient frame technology & this was the ONLY way the thing could be steered at anything over 25/30miles an hour.
I also road a modern 675Daytona & a GSXR1000 (the most modern bikes Ive ever ridden) at a track day where they were teaching these techniques.
These bikes had plenty of power but at those kinds of race speeds it becomes neccesary for the same reason- inertia...
Plus with modern bike you also need to take into consideration having such a larger-than-the-front-tire width causes an amount of understeer.
But find a bicycle wheel & have a play with it gyroscopic effects, preferably while seated in a swivel chair & see what happens then go try the above on a push bike making sure not to use your body mass....
Lastly, see if you can find a book by Tony Foal, “Motorcycle Handling & Chassis Design”
as it describes completely in a manner that even I as a teenager could understand most of.
Besides, it a great read with many relevant experiments too numerous to detail here....
Here's a link to his site; http://www.tonyfoale.com/

[Edit] D'oh, RC45 beat me to it....LoL
BTW Whats the go with this stupid blue writing?

 

[Lee Knight]

Hampus, you are correct in your diagram.

But the pressure is a constant applied throughout the turn - not at the ext (in the exit youactually tug on the bar to stand up if need be) - and if you want to tighten the turn you hang off the bike on the inside, and apply more pressure to that left inside bar.

You achieve the rotation of the bike by way of the pressure on the inside bar, you unload the suspension and give yourself more ground clearance by hanging off - this all translates to you being able to tighten the turn without needing to lean the bike over more. (This is in an effort to manage the contact patch - another discussion entirely)

But the basic key and essential effort being fed into the bars that allows the bike to turn (or tighten the turn), is the COUNTER STEERING LEFT HAND PUSHING force applied to the left bar.

If you wanted to slow the steering, you lessen the pressure on that inside bar, perhaps even tugging on it to get the bike to begin standing up and run wide. That tugging would be the same as initiating a PUSH RIGHT to turn TURN RIGHT.

I agree with nearly all of that RC45.....
It's just that hanging off the bike is to move your center of gravity further & into the corner & also to make it lower & so either making it possible through the bars to tighten the corner OR to go faster on the same line....
Oh and I would say "But the pressure is a constant applied throughout the turn" but that it should have been written as "But the pressure is being constantly applied throughout the turn" & even then the amount can vary, especially on the road...
But you hit the nail pretty much on the head using far less words than I did...LoL
But basically Hampus, it's not really the 'bars movement that your feeling as that could be fractions of a millimeter or several centimeters or more...
The reference that you making your judgement to with your hands is the pressure of working those bars against the gyroscopic inertia at play working against you...
The biggest reason for not steering with your body mass as you would on a bicycle is that the motorcycle has far more mass & inertia as you so it's much easier & quicker to use physics to do the work for us & use our own body mass to help those laws in other way, ie; hanging off the bike or moving forward or back....

 

[museumsteve]

Thankyou Lee for a polite and more informative reply that makes sense. It's really about the speeds involved. I haven't had a bike for around 10 months so it's tough visualising it..and my last bike was a Dragstar cruiser..but that's cos I'm getting old

RC45, your forum etiquette leaves a lot to be desired. Perhaps I'm 'lucky' to be alive because I dont treat the roads like a race track and ride like a moron

 

[Lee Knight]

Thankyou Lee for a polite and more informative reply that makes sense. It's really about the speeds involved.

Speed(velocity) + bike/rider weight (Mass) = inertia
And then there's gyroscopic inertia created by the wheels & motor helps which keep us up-right...
These are what it's MOSTLY about....
There's still many other factors involved though!
Cener of Gravity, weight bias, contact patches & frame geometry are a few more of the factors that come into play + many more....
Thanks for the compliment though museumsteve, just thought I'd throw in that slight correction there before a misunderstanding arose...

 

[RC45]

Thankyou Lee for a polite and more informative reply that makes sense. It's really about the speeds involved. I haven't had a bike for around 10 months so it's tough visualising it..and my last bike was a Dragstar cruiser..but that's cos I'm getting old

RC45, your forum etiquette leaves a lot to be desired. Perhaps I'm 'lucky' to be alive because I dont treat the roads like a race track and ride like a moron

Forum ettiquette? Are you effing for real? I presented clear concise facts in a non-BS format.

You have been riding for 30 years on borrowed time and YOU have the gall to question my forum ettiquette? All I have done is what a competant fellow rider should have told you 29 years ago. FFS people need to get a clue - motorcycle riding is a deadly serious endevour and requires 100% commitment, knowledge and effort all the time.

And, no 'pal' - the technique I describe has nothing to do with 'using the street as a race track', it has everything to do with correct motorcycle control AT ANY SPEED.

I do my speed riding on track and cruise the roads. Your implication that the correct control methods I describe apply only to high speed riding and that YOUR 30 year old technique is in fact the reason you have not steered directly into a bus that crosses the center line onto your side of the road is ignorant at best.

You are lucky to be alive - period - you have been fighting the motorcycle for 30 years. Swallow your bloody pride, take the advice given and be thankful you now know how to avoid something as simple as this stupid accident in the video below. The rider, rather than try hang off, unload the suspension, perhaps dab a little front brake and counter steer to tighten the turn while maintaing the same speed, steers DIRECTLY into the obstacle he needed to avoid. This is a text book example of what happens when you do not push right to go right.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Nice info guys thanks,

been toying with the idea of getting a bike since they introduced tolls for entering city now.
(bikes don´t have registration plates at the front so we are good, that also goes for speed camera )

 

[William Levesque]

Right, ermmmm.... My head hurts from reading all of that stuff to be honest !

I don't even know what I do when I ride a bike (well, a moped at the moment...), I just do it and it works, knee down and everything (well, until the muffler or the stand hits the ground). Obviously I don't wank the handle to the left/right when I turn left/right (Except at parking speed, duh), but then I never paid attention to how I actually work the handle. It just goes on instinctively...

So to be honest, I don't care much how this "motorcycle controller" works, if it feels natural, it's good, no ?

 

[museumsteve]

Are you effing for real?

...and YOU have the gall to question my forum ettiquette? All I have done is what a competant fellow rider should have told you 29 years ago. FFS people need to get a clue -

And, no 'pal' .

..is ignorant at best.

Swallow your bloody pride, take the advice given and be thankful you now know how to avoid something as simple as this stupid accident in the video below.

As I said..your forum etiquette leaves a lot to be desired. You're just plain rude. I for one wont bother replying to you again.

However, as has been said it's easy to forget exactly what you do on a bike until you do it because it's just a natural operation..so I'd be more than interested in trying this control system. I'd probably be more interested in the controller itself and build my own frame/seat etc

 

[doubledragoncc]

Man oh Man, you guys are out of control. This thread is about my controller not for you to take it over and destroy my chances of sales. Please take your quarrels into another thread. My system works on your principle RC45 and it WORK so please leave it at that and give those that have genuine questions about the whole system and not just the principles of riding in real life. This is a simulator not a real bike but to keep it simple I have done just that, kept it feeling as near to natural as you can sitting still and not spending thousands for a real bike frame, motion systems etc.

RC45 wrote:I have a couple spare bikes/frames/tanks/GP bodywork laying around and may be interested in the steering assembly and peg components of your controller to build into a bike if the system responds to Push Left Go Left input.YES LEFT=LEFT

You would have to make many changes to my control systems mounting of foot controls to frame as each control is a complete unit. The steering needs space where the headstem is and fairing may cause a problem. I know it would work and am going to do a system with full body once I get the funds. These systems are so you dont have to have a bike and are simply meant as a replacement to units like the G25/27 where you dont have a full car body either lol.

 

[RC45]

As I said..your forum etiquette leaves a lot to be desired. You're just plain rude. I for one wont bother replying to you again.

However, as has been said it's easy to forget exactly what you do on a bike until you do it because it's just a natural operation..so I'd be more than interested in trying this control system. I'd probably be more interested in the controller itself and build my own frame/seat etc

Considering the next time you are out riding and a delivery van veers into your lane as you round a bend or you are faced with an unexpected patch of oil/dirt and you now know how to avoid the obstacle in your path potentially saving your life, you are most welcome.

Forum etiquette doesn't save lives, proper motorcycle control does.

Man oh Man, you guys are out of control. This thread is about my controller not for you to take it over and destroy my chances of sales. Please take your quarrels into another thread. My system works on your principle RC45 and it WORK so please leave it at that and give those that have genuine questions about the whole system and not just the principles of riding in real life. This is a simulator not a real bike but to keep it simple I have done just that, kept it feeling as near to natural as you can sitting still and not spending thousands for a real bike frame, motion systems etc.

RC45 wrote:I have a couple spare bikes/frames/tanks/GP bodywork laying around and may be interested in the steering assembly and peg components of your controller to build into a bike if the system responds to Push Left Go Left input.YES LEFT=LEFT

You would have to make many changes to my control systems mounting of foot controls to frame as each control is a complete unit. The steering needs space where the headstem is and fairing may cause a problem. I know it would work and am going to do a system with full body once I get the funds. These systems are so you dont have to have a bike and are simply meant as a replacement to units like the G25/27 where you dont have a full car body either lol.

No one is out of control. Questions about control where asked and answered. Certain folks simply refuse to believe physics behaves a certain way. Those folks are lucky to return alive from any ride they embark on and could do well to learn to ride properly. I have lost riding buddies over the decades to really unnecessary accidents who refused to accept the truth about motorcycle control - and when I say "lost" I don't mean we are no longer friends.

With regard to your controller, mounting to an existing frame would be just as simple as mounting to the skeleton frame you are currently using. The real frame being used would be sacrificed and dedicated to the system. Salvage frames (even alloy frames) are dirt cheap - $200 on eBay can buy many late model alloy bike frames. My idea would be to use the space previously occupied by the bike engine to house the PC and sound system.

My approach to mounting the steering would be to reverse your mount, rather than the south/pendulum mount I would rather have the steering unit pivot on the steering stem axis, mounted in reverse and use a reduction gear system to shrink the bar movement to as little as possible while still sweeping your controller though the same arc it does now.

The foot peg mounting can be tackled as any other custom rear set mount project would be.

Let me know as soon as you have a set of controllers (minus the frame) available for sale.