PC1 My updated opinions, not happy

[Richard Eriksson]

Ok, so i tried the latest build again after being away from the title for a while. Now that it is closing completion, i felt like having a look at it again to see how it's come along.

And i have to say that as a simulation fan i am very concerned, still. The physics and vehicle dynamics are completely off! For instance, i tried the Zakspeed Capri (one of my all time fav cars) on
Azure... I managed to make a full speed, 65 deg. turn at 255 KM/h. without losing grip at all, while shifting gears!? Now, for anyone who have witnessed the DRM Capris in real life,
this is a joke. Also, the suspension model of all cars are a travesty... Completely ridiculous with the feel of a souped up Burnout Paradise arcade car.

Try the Focus RS, for the worlds most hilarious representation of understeer/snap.

Or try some race car. The on-rails feel and "dead" response is really, really not a good representation of the involved dynamics.

Also, full on braking at 250 KM/h. renders no stability change, lift off oversteer is non existant, weight transfer in general can not be felt.

It's Gran Turismo for PC, but worse. Or in other words, it's Shift 2 all over again. I'm sorry, but this is what i feel.

The FFB is completely dead. Not that it matters, due to above physics issues.

Even the biggest selling point, the visuals, or not that fancy any more. I ran it at max settings 1080p, and i have to say, some textures are really poor... Soft lighting and dnb are weak etc.
AC is prettier, because it looks a lot more natural. Also, the screenshots on pCars that are dislayed in PR materials is a joke. It does NOT look anywhere near that, even at max settings.
There is a lot of post-processing there.


So for me, this is still a "simcade" racing GAME not a simulation. It's in the same vein as Gran Turismo (but worse), Shift-series, Codemasters releases (but worse) etc.

Don't get me wrong, it will be a success and i am glad i invested in it, back in the day. It will sell on the pretty screenshots and it will probably do well for ppl playing with
controllers on consoles. There it may be a nice casual offering, with many cars and some nice effects for the new gen consoles (albeit it will run 30 fps most likely).

But it's still not for me.

I know casual "simcade" is the goal of this title, but in that segment i think Codemasters, despite their flaws, have the realistic dynamics spot on. This is much worse.

 

[RaceNut]

Wow, I don't have a response for that beyond . . . okaaaaaaaaaaay.

 

[DrJustice]

Dearest Andy,

do you think it's possible for you to post without taking to poisoning the well or using master suppression thecniques. The continued use of those in almost every posting of yours makes it hard to swing RD in a friendlier direction.

 

[Andy_J]

Dearest Andy,

do you think it's possible for you to post without taking to poisoning the well or using master suppression thecniques. The continued use of those in almost every posting of yours makes it hard to swing RD in a friendlier direction.

I take it you don't share the same opinion as me or David for some reason Dr?
Would you care to enlighten us as to what view you have? Is it possible you could post harmoniously and with out just aiming your vitriol at me?

regards

Andy

 

[DrJustice]

I take it you don't share the same opinion as me for some reason Dr?

Are you only stalking me and my posts or do you also agree with Davids view on the game?

regards

Andy

It's not about opinions regarding the sim. It's about discussion technique, something that IMO needs thinking about. And I'm most certainly not "stalking" you; you respond to just abut every single posting I make, yet I don't claim that you're stalking me. In fact that claim would be a perfect example of the rhetoric devices mentioned.

And no, I do not agree with David's opinion of the game. As always, it's perfectly fine to express one's opinion on it.

Now, I think it may be in order to explain what I meant by my previous posting. Here are some examples of poisoning the well and using master suppression techniques. It took two minutes to gather this from your latest postings:

"You are going to upset them David. You'll have a fatwah on your head for saying as you see it."

"(prepares for the usual dislikes)"

"Yes nevermind. What you people hate are others who have a negative opinion after trying the game and then writing down how they feel."

"Just another investor trying to cause trouble eh Craig? If you have nothing to say except this kind if trouble making post, please don't say anything."

"Well Graham, I don't think I will be testing it for much longer. They don't like my reports and have said so on the WMD forum. And when one says something, quite a few of the shall we say "fans" jump in and have a go too. It's quite shocking to see it happen."

"Richard, you do know you are running the risk of being hung, drawn and quartered by the investors? Of course you do."

"I am sure one of the more clued up investors/paying testers will be along shortly to give a more complicated answer."

"You are just another no name trying to cause waves. What do they call them on t'internet? Oh yes.....trolls. Try doing your own testing on your own thread and we can all comment on your findings. Good idea?"

"ONT, if you don't like my thread with my opinions. Don't read it. If you have nothing nice to say, then say nothing. It's just manners.
There's a nice chap."

This last one is interesting since it contains this: "If you have nothing nice to say, then say nothing. It's just manners.". This is a piece of advice that we all, you included, could do well to heed. That does not mean that one can't critique the sim (of course - it's getting tiresome to mention this again and again, but it seems to be needed even if it falls on deaf ears), but one should refrain from characterizing and belittling ones discussion partners, and not take to the rhetoric devices mentioned.

I have left out anything that is just simple ridicule and belittlement. That would constitute far too much cut'n'paste work. I know that in your mind you've never ever said anything to ridicule, belittle or rile others, nor poisoning the discussions. It makes you a, let's say, "challenging" discussion partner. I always liked a challenge, as a general principle, hence I get dragged into it.

Light hearted banter and humour wold be fine, in fact it might help loosen up things. It's important not to mistake ridicule for humour and defamation for banter though.

These last couple of postings are quite sincere. I'd like nothing more than seeing a more friendly and productive forum here.

I'm beginning to think that there should be some kind of certification before people are let loose on the net. It could include a course in discussion technique and rhetoric, and maybe a briefing on common courtesy. I'd happily attend all the classes myself But that's a different discussion.

P.S. I see that you edited your posting. Trying to unravel this Gordian knot of forum "culture" is not vitriol. One day you may understand.

 

[Andy_J]

Come on Dr, get a grip. It's s discussion forum and sometimes people can have opinions that others might not like or agree with. There is no reason to get so uptight about the whole thing and start exploring every post I make to look for points you can score. For some reason you don't like or agree with my posts, but that in its self does not warrant some of the vitriol you aim at me and perhaps, as you suggest, there should be a course available to learn net etiquette?
You book your place first though and tell me what it's like.

You read too much in to what I type and it gets to you for some reason I am yet to fathom other than not liking my current build reports that is. You really need to calm down, have a drink and relax. The steam will eventually stop coming out of your ears.

Dr Justice:

ps, back on topic after that light hearted bit of banter............what do you think of the game right now Dr, how do you see it in a scale of sims like GSCE, AC, RF2 etc?
Would you place Pcars in the same bracket?

 

[DrJustice]

What can I say... You're now into making hateful cartoons with plain lies as captions. How low can you possibly stoop, how little can you possibly understand. I'm practically at a loss for words at this point, so I'll say no more.

 

[Andy_J]

What can I say... You're now into making hateful cartoons with plain lies as captions.

Seriously Dr? That cartoon upsets you? It was as you stated, light hearted banter. You must have a light constitution if it upsets you. Especially after all the insults you have thrown about here.

Why can't you accept a bit of light hearted mickey taking?

 

[Andy_J]

Back to my question to you and others, where do you rate Pcars right now (current almost finished build)? Do you see it as direct competition to Game Stock Car Extreme, RF2, Race 07, AC as a real race sim?

I have pretty much made my mind up and I will explain soon after a bit more testing.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

David, you upset the investors.

Thank goodness we still have the likes of Game Stock Car Extreme, Assetta Corsa etc to satisfy our sim needs. Yes they might not be wearing that pretty dress of Pcars, but by eck, they drive and feel better compared to the latest build anyway.

(prepares for the usual dislikes)

I'm convinced more than ever that people will lie in a bid to protect their investments......however, my main concern has always been the preservation of the real sim and it's advancement, and I can't see how pcars can claim to be more advanced than older sims let alone better or on par, IOW, in the sim landscape it has limited value......that said, in the simcade landscape it "could" have terrific value, but I need my steering to be precise, I can live with dodgy physics, but if it doesn't operate properly with my controller, I'm in a world of hurt.

I and other sim racers can drive around poor/dodgy physics, but I can't drive around poor steering/FFB, and that's pcars main problem for me, and it's always seemed like the hardest thing to get right.

re-sales, Pcars has been featured on many www's over the yrs, I'd be gobsmacked if it doesn't sell beyond investor expectation, whereby breaking even only required approx 250k sales, so once investors get their cash back, perhaps sanity will prevail and more objective criticism of pcars driving model might become the norm.

 

[ONT]

No investor here (40$ I think).

I think it will be close to AC in feel on PC.

Judging builds on PC right now is fairly pointless, the focus right now is to hit the deadlines for Sony and MS.

I think it's in the 4 week prior realm.

Patching is also a breeze on PC platform compared to Sony and MS.

The last few PC builds have been unstable.

 

[RaceNut]

There have been some issues with crashing (not the cars so much ) but, I have found reasonable stability in the last couple of days. I've been racing the FR, FG, and FC mostly and they mostly drive quite good for me. The steering is as precise for me as any other title so I don't get why some folks have such issues. Most of the GT cars are also driving very well and I have noticed some good strides in AI behavior over the last week or so.

BTW, I use the Rift DK2 for testing and that seems to actually accentuate any quirky handling characteristics but, I haven't been able to compare it to driving in AC or much else - except for LFS.

Regarding the steering issues, I get what is meant by comparisons to Shift1/2, those were barely playable for me. The steering felt very disconnected and artificial. Pcars is nothing at all like that in my experience. I would agree that some of the cars feel quite a bit like those in AC. If you are having that experience in Pcars, there must be something amiss between the game and the wheel.

 

[Andy_J]

Regarding the steering issues, I get what is meant by comparisons to Shift1/2, those were barely playable for me. The steering felt very disconnected and artificial. Pcars is nothing at all like that in my experience.

Actually for me Dean. I find the opposite. I have invested lots of time in Shift 1 and 2 with some brilliant mods released by the community. My heavily modded versions of both feel as good if not better in regards FFB compared with my latest Pcars build testing.

But none of them can match what I feel in Game Stock Car at this present time. That game seems to have steering and FFB really nailed in my opinion.

 

[RaceNut]

Actually for me Dean. I find the opposite. I have invested lots of time in Shift 1 and 2 with some brilliant mods released by the community. My heavily modded versions of both feel as good if not better in regards FFB compared with my latest Pcars build testing.

But none of them can match what I feel in Game Stock Car at this present time. That game seems to have steering and FFB really nailed in my opinion.

I only briefly tried the demo for GSC but, I really want to have my primary title be current in terms of the graphics and sounds as well as the physic and FFB. AC is probably going to fill that spot nicely down the road.

Once you have used the Rift for a while, the graphics become more important in providing greater immersion. Currently, Pcars represents what I want in terms of graphics. While the driving dynamics aren't at the same level as GSC or rF2, they are certainly proving good enough IMO to provide for quite a lot of fun. The inclusion of day/night transitions and weather also bring some great dynamics to the game-play as well. This is something people can't understand until they experience it for themselves using the rift and CV1 will do it much better than DK2.

In the end, once again - it comes down to priorities. Physics, FFB, graphics, sounds, features. I want all of those in order to have increased immersion. For me, I think there is a balance point. Awesome car physics is always preferred but, dated graphics break immersion and that is magnified in the rift, despite the low resolution. I have always said that sound is so important as well but, few games have been able to achieve great things until very recently.

Of course, for some - it's all about physics. I get that but, I am willing to make some compromises here and there to get the overall immersion that provides those truly stunning experiences. Perhaps that will pass in time and I will return to making driving dynamics the main priority. There are great things I like about every popular sim-racing title. Not one of them can do it all but, I'll take what I can get and enjoy it while I can.

 

[Andy_J]

Sounds ideal for the Rift then. I want one.

 

[RaceNut]

Sounds ideal for the Rift then. I want one.

It's awesome when everything works together. I've never experienced anything like it before in PC gaming, or anywhere else. Every session I run ends with profanity and exclamations under my breath and I'm not known for swearing a lot. People have no idea what they're in for with VR and Racing/flight-sims. They are perfectly suited for one another.

 

[Chronus]

I only briefly tried the demo for GSC but, I really want to have my primary title be current in terms of the graphics and sounds as well as the physic and FFB. AC is probably going to fill that spot nicely down the road.

Dean, briefly trying a demo...is not actually trying the product and understanding/knowing it.

Also, keep in mind that GSC is evolving and will continue to evolve - even for those that seek primarily the eye-candy detail.

Of course, for some - it's all about physics. I get that but, I am willing to make some compromises here and there to get the overall immersion that provides those truly stunning experiences.

I am certain that those willing to "make some compromises" in regards to physics will never really understand what brings a significant number of people to simulations (flight sims, racing sims, space sims, etc). [For the latter, special effects, cinema-like features are not as attractive as an honest, de facto approximation to actual physical realism. ]

The position of those willing to "make some compromises" in regards to physics is no doubt legitimate - as long as, if physics takes the back seat to the eye-candy/immersion/"feel" - and making "some compromises" obviously demands exactly THAT - the end result (the "game") is not called a "sim" in any way (unless the guys at GTPlanet asserting the "realism" of GT5 via "have a look at the incredibly realistic photo-mode" are right, after all).

Legitimate position, yes, but that does bring a question to the foreground:
what exactly entails "making some compromises" in regards to physics? Which area of physics can be either dumbed down or left lacking? Suspension? Tires? Aeros? Collisions?

And the next question:

by how much could physics be dumbed down or left lacking? 5%? 10%? So, a car which in real life barely reaches 2g in a corner - it would then be ok to have that car go through that corner at 2.2g (with the inevitable difference in speed)?

Where exactly and by how much can we accept developers to either cut corners or "dumb down" the physics of a sim (and still call it a sim...hmmm...no)?

Most people (by a long margin) from the "for some - it's all about physics" group are not expecting engineering-tools level of accuracy and precision from our simracing software and hardware, but obviously a line must be drawn beyond which we can no longer call something a sim when its priority is no longer physics but "immersion", "feel" or...worse, eye-candy.

I am hoping you take this positively, Dean. I am betting most of us here want pCARS to be a success, and I suspect that will actually happen. I also have this hope that it will be something we can call a sim (not perfect or flawless, but a real sim).

 

[RaceNut]

I use "Breifly" as a relative term. I played GSC for hours, not months or years. What has been done with the game engine is impressive. The driving dynamics were really good but, it just didn't tick all of the check boxes for me. Neither will Pcars I'm sure. AC may come close.

If GSC provided all that is necessary to enjoy a Sim, why improve it? Why make any other title? Well, it's got great FFB and physics but, . . . but what? It lacks something else - doesn't it. Having said that, I also appreciate physics that are based in reality. Those that are not are not fun to me.

I appreciate physics that are based in reality. Those that are not are not fun to me. I am less interested in the analytical fact finding regarding the percentage of "Sim" and more interested in having fun (fun to me means being immersed, in the moment, present). Immersion is also subjective and differs from one person to another. Physics is part of the immersion factor but, not all of it. Game physics don't have to be stellar perfect and accurate, they need to be believable. That is largely subjective as well. When the recipe is right, it's immersive. Immersion is not a bad thing. It's just that it falls into that undefined gray area that some people find scary.

Yes, I want it all in a SIM but, until then - I will continue to explore and enjoy all that the many titles we are fortunate to have access to today can offer. I think Pcars will have much to offer. So does AC, iRacing, rF2, GSC and more. Thankfully, they are not all alike.

In terms of evolution of Racing-sims, they all evolve to some extent over time - especially when we have early access. Some then get modded, patched or the redux treatment in next year's version. I see Pcars as a title that may serve to bridge the gap between typical console racers and PC simulations. The area in between will always be a gray one. Sim, Arcade, Sim-cade, Semi-sim, Sim-light, Quasi-Sim, Hybrid-sim, whatever. In the end, does this glass of water quench your thirst? Sure but, maybe I prefer iced-tea or wine today.

Regarding Pcars, I'm just amazed at how so many hardcore Sim-enthusiasts get so irate that there aren't more people that support, create or promote simulations that they defend their favorite title above all others. Yet, when a title like Pcars comes along, one that can actually do just that by bridging gaps, it's being met with so much dislike, distrust and disdain. It's unfortunate that such a high level of negativity may mean some people will read that and pass Pcars by having missed out.

I think we actually want the same things out of the titles we play, we just differ in how to achieve that. Our different points are like those of the scientist dealing in absolutes vs. the artist dealing in subjectivity and emotion. "Close enough" is offensive to those who demand absolute perfection. Absolute perfection is a goal but, one never truly achieved by mankind. Real-world physics are perfection; the rest are only simulations.

 

[Andy_J]

Regarding Pcars, I'm just amazed at how so many hardcore Sim-enthusiasts get so irate that there aren't more people that support, create or promote simulations that they defend their favorite title above all others. Yet, when a title like Pcars comes along, one that can actually do just that by bridging gaps, it's being met with so much dislike, distrust and disdain. It's unfortunate that such a high level of negativity may mean some people will read that and pass Pcars by having missed out.

Hi Dean
I like to think, despite what the WMD investors/Members have called me, that my reports and testing under my "latest build testing" thread are as honest as I can do them. I have tried to portray the game for what it is at the present time. I wanted the community here to see the game as it was being developed.

Yes I know it upset some badly enough to send me some pretty dire pm's and call me a few choice names but on the whole I think I have given Pcars some good air. People have been keen to ask questions and see the in game screen shots and see it progress overall.

I have not and do not dislike or treat it with disdain but I do tell it how I see it. I also do not defend one single simulation because I love so many too. So I hope you don't feel that my thread/s have been detrimental to Pcars. I was one of the early investors that really wanted to shape Pcars into a fully fledged race sim with physics to match the best. I suppose I got a bit down hearted when I saw it being made to a satisfy a more, shall we say, broader audience.
But here's hoping it will be damn good.

Cheers.
Andy

ps, This week I have been playing Pcars, AC, F1 2013, GSCE, Iracing, GTR2 and GP4. I love them all. Real sim or half sim. There is a place for all of them in my collection. Screenshots taken this week:

Geoff Crammonds Grand Prix 4.

Iracing

Pcars

Assetto Corsa

Game Stock Car Extreme

Codemaster F1 2013

GTR 2

 

[Chronus]

I use "Breifly" as a relative term. I played GSC for hours, not months or years.

Which is indeed "briefly". Not enough to understand or knowing it.

If GSC provided all that is necessary to enjoy a Sim, why improve it?

First of all, I never said it provided "all that is necessary".

Secondly:

As I said in the post, "Also, keep in mind that GSC is evolving and will continue to evolve - even for those that seek primarily the eye-candy detail."

It lacks something else - doesn't it. Having said that, I also appreciate physics that are based in reality. Those that are not are not fun to me.

No, it does not. Doesn't lack "something else" or whatever people seek but don't find. Problem, as usual, is people's expectations.

You don't buy GT6 and expect GSC level of physics; if you do, you'll be sorely disappointed. Conversely, you buy rF/rF2/GSC and expect to find GT6 level of graphics, same kind of disappointment. Obviously, with that perspective (GT6 type of graphics as a requirement for immersion) people don't pay much attention to physics.

I am less interested in the analytical fact finding regarding the percentage of "Sim" and more interested in having fun (fun to me means being immersed, in the moment, present).

You diverted the question.

You mentioned compromises. You must have some idea of the compromises you say you're willing to accept. So which are those? Where? By how much?

I think we actually want the same things out of the titles we play, we just differ in how to achieve that. Our different points are like those of the scientist dealing in absolutes vs. the artist dealing in subjectivity and emotion. "Close enough" is offensive to those who demand absolute perfection. Absolute perfection is a goal but, one never truly achieved by mankind. Real-world physics are perfection; the rest are only simulations.

I and so many others are not seeking "absolute perfection".

Tell me, Dean: have you read what I posted earlier?

Most people (by a long margin) from the "for some - it's all about physics" group are not expecting engineering-tools level of accuracy and precision from our simracing software and hardware, but obviously a line must be drawn beyond which we can no longer call something a sim when its priority is no longer physics but "immersion", "feel" or...worse, eye-candy.

No "absolute perfection" is necessary. Just an honest attempt at proper physics.
---

Regarding Pcars, I'm just amazed at how so many hardcore Sim-enthusiasts get so irate that there aren't more people that support, create or promote simulations that they defend their favorite title above all others. Yet, when a title like Pcars comes along, one that can actually do just that by bridging gaps, it's being met with so much dislike, distrust and disdain. It's unfortunate that such a high level of negativity may mean some people will read that and pass Pcars by having missed out.

A certain person at NG with responsibilities within WMD said those same words (odd...) a couple of years ago. The targets were the same (hardcore Sim-enthusiasts).

I think, like him, you're reaching.

As far as we've all seen, critics of pCARS have been more than just the hardcore "sim-enthusiasts". There's more at play here (in regards to "dislike, distrust and disdain") than just being a believer in proper physics for a sim. You know it perfectly well. "distrust", "dislike" were generated by a variety of factors. Pinning "dislikes", "distrust", "disdain" on hardcore simracers is, to say the least, unfortunate.


To @Andy Jackson, sorry if I hijacked the thread with these 2 posts.

 

[RaceNut]

@Andy Jackson, I am not singling you out at all. I actually think that your recent comments and assessment of Pcars have been quite fair and largely positive. I'm sorry if you felt that it was aimed at you - not my intent at all. It's really about some extremely harsh comments towards Pcars on other sites, mostly undeserved.

@chronos, sorry man - clearly, we are just on totally different pages on this subject. Better to agree to disagree and just move on rather than continue to take over this thread. You are very good in articulating your thoughts and technical savvy and I have made note of that in many of your posts prior, and not only here at RD.

It's time for me to step away from the PC for a few days and spend some much-needed time with friends in the great outdoors before winter arrives. Later and Cheers guys.