PC1 My updated opinions, not happy

[Richard Eriksson]

Ok, so i tried the latest build again after being away from the title for a while. Now that it is closing completion, i felt like having a look at it again to see how it's come along.

And i have to say that as a simulation fan i am very concerned, still. The physics and vehicle dynamics are completely off! For instance, i tried the Zakspeed Capri (one of my all time fav cars) on
Azure... I managed to make a full speed, 65 deg. turn at 255 KM/h. without losing grip at all, while shifting gears!? Now, for anyone who have witnessed the DRM Capris in real life,
this is a joke. Also, the suspension model of all cars are a travesty... Completely ridiculous with the feel of a souped up Burnout Paradise arcade car.

Try the Focus RS, for the worlds most hilarious representation of understeer/snap.

Or try some race car. The on-rails feel and "dead" response is really, really not a good representation of the involved dynamics.

Also, full on braking at 250 KM/h. renders no stability change, lift off oversteer is non existant, weight transfer in general can not be felt.

It's Gran Turismo for PC, but worse. Or in other words, it's Shift 2 all over again. I'm sorry, but this is what i feel.

The FFB is completely dead. Not that it matters, due to above physics issues.

Even the biggest selling point, the visuals, or not that fancy any more. I ran it at max settings 1080p, and i have to say, some textures are really poor... Soft lighting and dnb are weak etc.
AC is prettier, because it looks a lot more natural. Also, the screenshots on pCars that are dislayed in PR materials is a joke. It does NOT look anywhere near that, even at max settings.
There is a lot of post-processing there.


So for me, this is still a "simcade" racing GAME not a simulation. It's in the same vein as Gran Turismo (but worse), Shift-series, Codemasters releases (but worse) etc.

Don't get me wrong, it will be a success and i am glad i invested in it, back in the day. It will sell on the pretty screenshots and it will probably do well for ppl playing with
controllers on consoles. There it may be a nice casual offering, with many cars and some nice effects for the new gen consoles (albeit it will run 30 fps most likely).

But it's still not for me.

I know casual "simcade" is the goal of this title, but in that segment i think Codemasters, despite their flaws, have the realistic dynamics spot on. This is much worse.

 

[traind]

This really shouldn't be a new thread. There is a 'latest build testing' thread--usually found on the first page for pcars-- that the OP should have been dropped into.

 

[Andy_J]

^ I refer you to the OP and my original posting. I do not accept your invitation to some kind of slagging match - it's futile and not something that RD needs.

Agreed. We are now getting somewhere. Live and let live.

 

[Richard Eriksson]

Well, i am not bad-mouthing anyone who likes the title, i want to make that very clear. Each to their own. I have tested many builds since i got involved, when the WMD was recently launched and to me it is Shift 3, in all but name.

There are some really heavy support for pCars however, probably related to the fact that many people invested a lot of cash hoping for a return on it.

The irony is that, to get a substantial return, the title has to go "simcade" because there is very little cash in hardcore simulation. Ask Reiza.

And for those of you who claim that pCars is a full blown racing simulation, do you think Gran Turismo 5/6 and Forza 4/5 are to? Becuase to me this is in the same vein as that.

It feels somewhat real, but the full simulation is not there or held back.

Can you honestly compare this to rFactor 2 and tell me that pCars is the better of the two at simulating vehicle dynamics? Or that pCars has better road feel than AC?

Because to me it most certainly does not. But i will say it's a lot nicer now than what it was like a year ago. But as we are now close to release, i think this is as good as it is going to get.

And the fact that you claim that the physics thread will keep up with 60fps on a console, that has a rather weak CPU, is indication of that physics simulation is simplified.

But these are my feelings for it. I once again point out that i am fully happy with anyone having opposing views.

In the end, as long as people are having fun, we all are happy

 

[DrJustice]

...In the end, as long as people are having fun, we all are happy

I concur!

 

[Betta Lines]

And the fact that you claim that the physics thread will keep up with 60fps on a console, that has a rather weak CPU, is indication of that physics simulation is simplified.

I don't think that is an indication at all. The isiMotor physics engine used in rFactor and other products is still one of the most sophisticated, yet it runs on PCs from 10 years ago at hundreds of Hz. A PS4 has more than enough power to run a decent physics simulation.

 

[Chronus]

Betta,

it's not as simple as that either. Dan Greenawalt (and Kaz too) claim that with pre-PS4 hardware, a good physics simulation was not possible, and only now they're closer to a much better physics simulation.

Problem is, regardless of the "awesomium" factor PR people associate with the new Xbox and the PS4, physics is not the only concern of the hardware. There is significant computing power requirements to run games with the level of gfx and sounds sported by GT6 and FM5. So much so that the physics simulation aspect of the game has to be "kept in a leash", otherwise physics alone (if competent) would bring these games to a (pardon the pun) screeching halt.

So, about your statement ("PS4 has more than enough power to run a decent physics simulation"), sad as it may be, no. Not enough power in there. Try and read between the lines of both Kaz's and Dan's interviews about the compromises and achievements of the current versions of GT and FM.

Again, things are a lot more complicated than some think.

As for IM2: though the FFB thread runs at 100Hz, the core parts of the physics engine run between 360 to 400 Hz (I recall Gjon's comments to that effect).

@Richard Eriksson,

Re: Reiza
I believe you don't know enough of Reiza to make such a statement. They are still here (Morpheus dixit it) and their plans are propelling them forward in a direction fans seem delighted with.

Re: CARS in the same vein as GT and FM
Not even in the slightest. We know of the "loud" investors and their "money über alles" mentality (these types should never set foot in such projects, but hey...projects/companies such as SMS do need investors), but the intention of the project and the orientation of some key development team members is very much that of producing a realistic racing sim. FM and GT come from a different place, that of impressing people with huge number of cars and striking visuals; if you look at the team assembled by SMS, you can't deny their focus has been to bring together good visuals and a solid sim (albeit the sore hiccups with EA).

Will SMS succeed? Lets hope so, in spite of conflicting impressions here and there, now and then.

 

[Betta Lines]

So, about your statement ("PS4 has more than enough power to run a decent physics simulation"), sad as it may be, no. Not enough power in there.

You appear to be suggesting a) the PS4 can't run isiMotor2 or b) isiMotor2 isn't a decent physics engine...

 

[Chronus]

You appear to be suggesting a) the PS4 can't run isiMotor2 or b) isiMotor2 isn't a decent physics engine...

Oh boy...

Really? Enlighten me/us, where did I "appear to be suggesting that"? Quote me where.

And while you're at it, show me how you managed to run IM2 on the Playstation - you must have, as you already know the results...

 

[Richard Eriksson]

@Chronus, Well i know that Reiza Studios is not exactly a well known name outside of sim racing circles. Despite having a very good product... It's a hardcore sim product, thus they are less known and no, i do not think they will ever make the same amount of cash as EA does But that is not to say, that they do not get recognition. I myself have GSC Extreme as my goto simulation, for league racing, as i stated earlier. But i doubt that Joe Average would pick up a Reiza Studios title for his PS4 if he could...

And as for the GT/Forza comparison... Bear in mind that Turn 10 has some really good physics guys on the Forza-team as well, and so does Polyphony... With all the right intentions. But in the face of market reality, it ends up toned down. Something i am guessing will happen here as well...

 

[Richard Eriksson]

@Betta Lines, The core speed (per core) in PS4 is said to be 1,6 GHz. (AMD Jaguar). As core physics simulation is largely dependant on core speed and does not thread all that good (not many procedural proccesses do actually, despite the hype)... That is weaker than my netbook. So, i would say that it is a limiting factor.

Even the PC you used to run rFactor on was probably faster. Heck, my old P3 was faster per core.

Then there is the fact of marketing demographics... To make money enough to cover the licenses on a console release, you have got to tend to the brofist college boys, not the simulation elitists. Which is why flair and graphics sell, but depth does not, on that platform.

 

[Betta Lines]

Oh boy...

Really? Enlighten me/us, where did I "appear to be suggesting that"? Quote me where.

And while you're at it, show me how you managed to run IM2 on the Playstation - you must have, as you already know the results...

I must have misinterpreted what you meant, apologies. I don't know the results, I just assumed it would run on a PS4. As Richard has pointed out, the clock speed is fairly low, but it would still surprise me if the PS4 was unable to run isiMotor physics (or equivalent) at full speed.

 

[Spinelli]

Well, i am not bad-mouthing anyone who likes the title, i want to make that very clear. Each to their own. I have tested many builds since i got involved, when the WMD was recently launched and to me it is Shift 3, in all but name.

There are some really heavy support for pCars however, probably related to the fact that many people invested a lot of cash hoping for a return on it.

The irony is that, to get a substantial return, the title has to go "simcade" because there is very little cash in hardcore simulation. Ask Reiza.

And for those of you who claim that pCars is a full blown racing simulation, do you think Gran Turismo 5/6 and Forza 4/5 are to? Becuase to me this is in the same vein as that.

It feels somewhat real, but the full simulation is not there or held back.

Can you honestly compare this to rFactor 2 and tell me that pCars is the better of the two at simulating vehicle dynamics? Or that pCars has better road feel than AC?

Because to me it most certainly does not. But i will say it's a lot nicer now than what it was like a year ago. But as we are now close to release, i think this is as good as it is going to get.

And the fact that you claim that the physics thread will keep up with 60fps on a console, that has a rather weak CPU, is indication of that physics simulation is simplified.

But these are my feelings for it. I once again point out that i am fully happy with anyone having opposing views.

In the end, as long as people are having fun, we all are happy

Richard, if it's pure vehicle dynamics/behaviour modelling you are concerned about (the pure joy and simulation of the pure driving itself) then we have the amazing rFactor 2, and also Game Stock Car. You can also throw in some Assetto Corsa and iRacing in there. The Raceroom isn't going to come close to rFactor 2, or even Game Stock Car in terms of pure vehicle dynamics, or even FFB (ESPECIALLY compared to rFactor 2, but GSC as well).

I'm not sure why you're expecting so much more when we've known for a long while now that Raceroom Racing Experience isn't supposed to be an almost industrial, professional driving/feeling sim like rFactor 2 is, or even Game Stock Car. RRRE can still be fun and enjoyable though. Just choose the correct product for what you're looking for, physics and FFB wise .

 

[Chronus]

Well i know that Reiza Studios is not exactly a well known name outside of sim racing circles. Despite having a very good product... It's a hardcore sim product, thus they are less known and no, i do not think they will ever make the same amount of cash as EA does

Well, the number of Shift 1 and 2 copies sold by EA is far from insignificant, though they pale in comparison to GT5 or FM5. If I recall correctly, GT5 is said to have sold more than 1.8 million copies in little over 2 days upon release. Globally, it ended up selling (if one of the sources is correct) over 9 million copies. Forza 4, last I read, had sold over 5 million copies.

So, no way a PC title, and a racing sim at that, will ever be able to compete with the mind-boggling numbers circulating in the media for console titles.

No doubt Reiza are very much aware of the realities of this genre in the PC. Still, they have managed thus far, and quite well.

By the way, EA's racing titles sales are not up to Polyphony Digital standards either.

But i doubt that Joe Average would pick up a Reiza Studios title for his PS4 if he could...

Joe Average believes downforce is a device F1 cars have under the buttocks of the driver. Reiza are not counting on Joe A. Fortunately.

And as for the GT/Forza comparison... Bear in mind that Turn 10 has some really good physics guys on the Forza-team as well, and so does Polyphony...

Hmmm...

Something a certain dev studio programmer told me once: why bother investing a massive effort in physics when the average gamer has nothing but a gamepad and understands realism is...how the cars look in replays and photo-modes?

Consoles themselves, as you well said, are not the perfect media for spreading the wings of physics development in simracing titles. Add to that how 95% of gamers want nothing but "more cars more cars more cars", it's not surprising the distance between physical engines in console gaming and PC racing titles.

A lot more could be said about this, but it's best to leave it at that.

Suffice to say that I am hoping pCARS is, physics wise, several steps above Shift 1 and 2, and at least at the same level as GTR2.

@Betta Lines, no problem. Anyway, a lot could have (should have...) to be changed in IM2 in order for it to be run from the PS4, so we will never know. I do have my suspicions, though.

@Spinelli,

as per Diego Sartori's interviews last year, we know the platform for the development of RRRE is the same as Race07, barring the development done in the last 2 years. Through the years, some things changed - most notably graphics (new renderer) and sounds. Depending on the licenses purchased from ISI, many more can be changed further or has already changed (netcode, AI). Still, as Diego explained, the platform is the same - and we know which platform is that - the same underneath GTR2, rF and GSC. [Note: unless SIMBIN completely and suddenly changed everything from one year to the next, which is obviously unlikely.]

Q: What advances have been worked on in the new physics engine? Is it a development of the old engine, or all-new from the ground up? What separates the new engine from past titles?

Diego Sartori: It is development of the existing physics engine. There are new elements to physics, but mostly this is about us using the engine slightly differently.

Q: Can you give us some insight into how the tire model has been defined, does it utilise a traditional model, similar to past SimBin titles, or is there any new, groundbreaking technology in there to excite the tire buffs of this world?

Diego Sartori: Nothing new and groundbreaking, but a different approach to working with the tires. Since GTR we have been making improvements and\or changes to the code, but nothing as complex as a complete rewrite of the underlying code.

Being based on the same, proven platform means the potential for a great sim is there.

On the other hand, Reiza's focus has been on caring for the minutia (physics wise), with some impressive novelties with GSCE and the latest 2 patches. It's only natural people think of them as hardcore and dedicated to the simracing community, which is something no one else seems to be doing at their level.

Some fierce competition among all these dev studios, isn't there?

 

[freeman2b]

project cars and basically a developed
game and thanks to money from PC gamers ... but I 'm afraid that it becomes a console game ....

 

[ouvert]

project cars and basically a developed
game and thanks to money from PC gamers ... but I 'm afraid that it becomes a console game ....

you wanna sell - you need to get it on consoles, you wanna sell it on consoles - you need to make it accessible for average player with controler, you`re targeting console players - some aspects of your game can/need be simplified, you simplified some aspects of your game - PC players interested enough to give you money in advance may not be pleased .. but hey you already have money from some PC gamers and will get significantly more from console salles ..

I hope pCars won`t be that case ... yes, consoles are probably main target platform sales wise but it could still be without too much influence on PC version .. i`m certainly not expecting SHIFT2 disasster .. well we`ll see soon enough ... and that is gonna be the true start of meanless flamewars .. forums overwhelmed by haters and fanboys ..

 

[ONT]

"Insert sarcasm"

With today's technology it is IMPOSSIBLE to make sims/games with

HARD...MEDIUM...EASY settings.

In the future say in 10 15 years we will see titles on computers AND console
with thees options, and some are even predicting that in the really far far future
we may even see more options.

Imagine a world where games/sims has EASY..MEDIUM...HARD...REALISTIC settings wooooooow



I fly everything in the DCS sim and it's not exactly something You pic up in 5 min
But there is an ARCADE flight model if that's what You fancy.


A quick look at start-up procedure for the
DCS: Black Shark

 

[Richard Eriksson]

Added "like" to your post only because of a fellow DCS user

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Guys, if you DEMAND proper sims, you might get them, if however, you accept any ole thing that drives and call it a sim, then that's what you'll get, a bastardized sim aka simcade.
It takes time and KNOWLEDGE to create precise sim cars, as such, it's illogical that games with huge carlists are proper sims regardless of any potential fun factor, as it takes too long and costs too much.

Anyway, the whole point of the WMD project as I understood it was to create a simulator with a modest carlist that was free from publisher demands for accessibility and overall shoddy work due to corporate deadlines......who knows how Pcars will rate as a game, but I see no evidence that it's going to be simlike, and unless it's physics files are open to modding, it'll remain what it's always set out to be IMO, Shift3.

For the average person, I'm sure that's good enough, but for someone who mainly prefers sims with the precision of Netkar/FVA/GTR EVO/GSC2011/12/13/Extreme, I don't think it'll cut the mustard.

To avoid upsetting the investors in these tough times, I expect Shift3 to sell INXS of a million copies, so you'll get your dollars back, but trying to pass off Shift3 as a sim is utter madness and might encourage any genuine sim makers to rethink their gaming strategy if people are so easy to please.

 

[Mark Quigley]

 

[Andy_J]

Guys, if you DEMAND proper sims, you might get them, if however, you accept any ole thing that drives and call it a sim, then that's what you'll get, a bastardized sim aka simcade.

To avoid upsetting the investors in these tough times, I expect Shift3 to sell INXS of a million copies, so you'll get your dollars back, but trying to pass off Shift3 as a sim is utter madness and might encourage any genuine sim makers to rethink their gaming strategy if people are so easy to please.

David, you upset the investors.

Thank goodness we still have the likes of Game Stock Car Extreme, Assetta Corsa etc to satisfy our sim needs. Yes they might not be wearing that pretty dress of Pcars, but by eck, they drive and feel better compared to the latest build anyway.

(prepares for the usual dislikes)