DiRT Rally 2.0 My T300 FFB settings

[Case_]

In case anybody is interested, here are my FFB settings for DR2 on the T300 which I'm pretty satisfied with (see more below):

(Updated the image for the current state of the FFB in the game.)

Please note that if you raise the FFB gain on a T300 beyond the default 75 %, you really should be using the forced fan mode that keeps the fan running at all times (then again you should probably be using that mode even when not raising the gain).

I am using soft lock with the wheel set to 1080 degrees, but I have the driver hands disabled and only the virtual wheel is shown, because if I enable driver hands, the virtual wheel rotation doesn't match the real wheel (a bug, I assume).

As for the FFB settings themselves, they don't transform the FFB significantly, so the road noise is still quite low in the mix, but it is definitely there. I'm not a fan of those supposed XML "fixes", because from what I've tried, they introduce more issues than they solve (and I can come up with several reasons of why I think that is the result), no matter how you tweak them. I also have no problem feeling the suspension, wheel grip and all that without them (even though it definitely varies between cars - as it should). I would like the wheel friction to be higher for the wheel to not be as loose, but it seems to also hide detail in the FFB if you raise it, so I keep it low.

I'd certainly like the road detail to come out a bit more in the FFB, but other than that, I am very satisfied with how the FFB is and I think it's up there with the best and certainly far from "broken", "unplayable" or "non-existent", to quote a few descriptions I've seen. It is very nuanced and detailed, it just doesn't hit you over the head with the information it provides.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Argon OSW settings 20Nm Small Mige

Also good post explaining what params do

 

[RasmusP]

The definition of individual FFB settings can be found here https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/ste...i_Input_Device_Configuration.pdf?t=1565279644
I am not sure what magical formula you expect from Martin. He didn't code the sim. There are what, 3 sliders, hardly a rocket science to get them where you like.
I am using DD but settings I am using now are not far off from Martin's or other 'sensible' settings I saw around.
If any interest, I can post them.

From the PDF:

WHEEL FRICTION
This scales the constant friction/weight of the steering device.
 TYRE FRICTION
This scales the dynamic friction of the tyre. This is the resistance of the tyre to turn.

From these lines I'd think my problem would be a too high wheel friction setting that keeps the front wheels from staying in trajectory direction, spinning the steering wheel.
No idea what "dynamic Tyre friction" means though...
If I lower them it feels squishy but with Martin's settings I get this weird problem.

However I didn't want to start an argument about it or get a direct solution.
I just wanted to chat a bit about my problem, getting to know what others do about it, if they get it too or whatever.

The main problem are the front tyres are sticking with the cars pointing direction while sliding the rear around, making them pointing to the inside of a hairpin on exit.
When the rear regains grip, the wheel snaps on me.

Anyway a real life example of how I'd like it:
He initiates the drift and let the wheel do the "countersteering".
For me in this game this happens too but at the exit of a corner, instead of the entry.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Some example of rally car on gravel or some loose surface would be more helpful, physics of drifting on tarmac is a bit different, and to overcome surface resistance that tires dig in some additional countersteering is required. Slippery surfaces could be different.
But I am not a big expert on this or hardly expert at all, it feels similar to what I've experienced from some driving on gravel surfaces IRL.

 

[RasmusP]

Some example of rally car on gravel or some loose surface would be more helpful, physics of drifting on tarmac is a bit different, and to overcome surface resistance that tires dig in some additional countersteering is required. Slippery surfaces could be different.
But I am not a big expert on this or hardly expert at all, it feels similar to what I've experienced from some driving on gravel surfaces IRL.

Forgot to mention: in dirt rally 2 it was worst on the German tarmac stages.
So still 1:1 comparison but it might be that tarmac physics are still a bit... Let's call it good but "weird"

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Tarmac physics is Achilles heel of DR 2, a bit better than original but nowhere where other sims are.

 

[Marc Collins]

The definition of individual FFB settings can be found here https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/ste...i_Input_Device_Configuration.pdf?t=1565279644
I am not sure what magical formula you expect from Martin. He didn't code the sim. There are what, 3 sliders, hardly a rocket science to get them where you like unless something you are looking for is not there.
I am using DD, but my settings now are not far off from Martin's or other 'sensible' settings I saw around.
If any interest, I can post them.

Thanks--looks like the official reference.

• SELF-ALIGNING TORQUE This scales the torque created by the tyre and suspension geometry.
  • This is actually SAT, not an overall gain control, but in reality it operates more or less like a gain (especially if you leave the other sliders alone)
• WHEEL FRICTION This scales the constant friction/weight of the steering device.
• TYRE FRICTION This scales the dynamic friction of the tyre. This is the resistance of the tyre to turn.
  • I am not allowed to move this from 100. Is that the same for everyone that it is greyed-out?
• SUSPENSION This scales an effect that is generated by taking information directly from the vehicle's suspension. Use this to emphasise the road noise.
  • Works as expected
• TYRE SLIP This scales an effect that is generated by taking information directly from the tyres. If you are using a controller, it scales the slip of the front and rear tyres.

I played around by setting everything to 0 (that was possible) and then activated one-by-one and various combinations. My conclusion was to leave everything at 100 except the self-aligning torque. It was too strong and caused clipping (the numb feeling I referred to). Once I lowered it to 65 or 70, the rest of the FFB started to come through better and you could feel the differences from moving the sliders. So, at least for my hardware, the SAT setting can be thought of as a volume knob/slider and leave the rest alone.

It's still a sim-cade title at best, so don't expect vivid physics-based FFB. But it's way more plausible and authentic than DR 1.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Tire friction should work, not sure why it's disabled for you.
Also try to lower (a lot) wheel friction, it masks a lot of details.

 

[Brandon Wright]

It is a myth that you add extra damping by leaving the damper slider in your wheel's control panel at values above 0, even if it is left at the default 100 %. Unless the game is actively using the damper force, the slider has no effect on the perceived FFB.


It doesn't. Unless the game is actively using the spring force, the slider has no effect on the perceived FFB. You might be thinking of the "Auto-Center Settings" slider if set to the "by the wheel" setting (not the default "by the game" setting).


Not true. Unless the game is actively using the damper or spring forces, the sliders have no effect on the perceived FFB.

I have a question on this then. Right now I'm mainly playing two games, the first Dirt Rally and American Truck Simulator. I've always run with spring and damper at 0 but in ATS if I use those settings I have no FFB other than vibrations. I turn the spring to 50 and the damper to 100 and then I have fairly nice FFB in ATS. But of course when I fire up DR I forget to change the spring and damper settings back and right away I can tell that the FFB feels weird, so I alt-tab to the profiler to turn spring/damper to 0 and then go back to the game and the FFB feels right again. So this would suggest the opposite of what you're saying? I'm thinking it's just the spring that makes my FFB feel weird in DR1.0 and not the damper. I'm going to fiddle with these settings tonight but as of now I know that having spring at greater than 0 makes my FFB in DR1.0 feel numb and weird.

Not trying to argue or anything, I'm genuinely curious about this.

The main problem are the front tyres are sticking with the cars pointing direction while sliding the rear around, making them pointing to the inside of a hairpin on exit.
When the rear regains grip, the wheel snaps on me.

Anyway a real life example of how I'd like it:
He initiates the drift and let the wheel do the "countersteering".
For me in this game this happens too but at the exit of a corner, instead of the entry.

D1 drifting is really nothing like rally drifting, I don't believe using this technique would benefit you in Dirt Rally. I've watched a lot of rally racing and even done a couple rallycross events myself (as well as a shedload of snow drifting in empty parking lots), I don't believe I've ever seen a rally driver use anything close to that drifting technique. It's usually yank the brake, countersteer through the slide, then straighten up the wheel as you throttle out. As my AutoX instructor told me, you should never let go of the wheel and let it spin freely unless you're in a dedicated drift car.

You can see on this video how he does it on snow, at no point does the wheel spin quickly on its own nor does he ever fully take his hands off the wheel, and he is manually bringing the wheel back to center. This is exactly how I do it in Dirt Rally with my T300 and in my real car. Watch any random Chris Harris video and you'll likely see the same technique. Skip to 1:06.

And to show I somewhat know what I'm talking about, here I am having some fun in the snow last winter.

 

[Case_]

@Brandon Wright I am not very familiar with FFB in ATS/ETS2, so I will have to check it out and get back to you. However, it is entirely possible it's one of the fairly rare games where damper/spring settings do make a difference while the game doesn't offer an option to tweak them. Those games certainly do exist, they are just fairly rare nowadays and often outside the interest range of your average simracer.

I wouldn't be all that surprised about this since I remember the FFB in ETS2 to be very barebones and simplified.

I will try to check it out.

(BTW, very envious of your car.)

 

[Brandon Wright]

@Brandon Wright I am not very familiar with FFB in ATS/ETS2, so I will have to check it out and get back to you. However, it is entirely possible it's one of the fairly rare games where damper/spring settings do make a difference while the game doesn't offer an option to tweak them. Those games certainly do exist, they are just fairly rare nowadays and often outside the interest range of your average simracer.

I wouldn't be all that surprised about this since I remember the FFB in ETS2 to be very barebones and simplified.

I will try to check it out.

(BTW, very envious of your car.)

Right, but the point was not ATS, it's just that in ATS I have to add spring/damper or there is no FFB which is what led to those settings getting cranked up in my control panel. What I was trying to get at is that after I play ATS and have the spring and damper cranked up, when I then go to play Dirt Rally (1.0) and forget to turn the spring back down it's Dirt Rally that has strange feeling FFB. You were saying that in games like Dirt Rally having the spring and damper cranked up should not have any impact on how the FFB feels but I can most certainly feel a difference when I forget to turn the spring back to 0. It kinda has a rubberband feel to it, like a generic strength always pulling it back to center regardless of the terrain/situation. I'm wondering why that is if you guys are saying it should not have any effect? Again, just genuinely curious and not saying you're wrong, just that my experience is different.

Now, the other side of that topic is damper, which I've also historically kept at 0. But you made some comments that if control panel damper is at 0 then the wheel and tire friction settings will not work. I believe my experience confirms that because the only way I can get decent feeling FFB in DR1.0 is to have both of those at 0 (when my control panel damper is at 0). This evening I'm going to try your method, crank up damper in the control panel and then see if adding wheel/tire friction in the in-game settings finally has an effect.

(Thanks! )

 

[RasmusP]

What Martin and I are talking about is that dirt rally might actually use spring and damper in the ffb so if you put those both to 0 you'll miss out on parts of the original ffb.
If you like it without these parts of the ffb that's absolutely fine but we don't like people to not taste the original ffb before they kill some parts of it.

In Assetto Corsa for example the damper setting is used for the standing still Tyre friction thing.
If you put damper to 0 you'll have a frictionless "dead" wheel while standing still.
I personally like to have this dead wheel in ac cause I often fiddle around with something.
Also with the g27 this "standing still friction" meant if you dared to turn the wheel it would sound like shredding the internals

I guess I'll have to try dirt rally (1 and 2) with damper and spring to 0. Maybe I'll like it better too

 

[Brandon Wright]

What Martin and I are talking about is that dirt rally might actually use spring and damper in the ffb so if you put those both to 0 you'll miss out on parts of the original ffb.
If you like it without these parts of the ffb that's absolutely fine but we don't like people to not taste the original ffb before they kill some parts of it.

In Assetto Corsa for example the damper setting is used for the standing still Tyre friction thing.
If you put damper to 0 you'll have a frictionless "dead" wheel while standing still.
I personally like to have this dead wheel in ac cause I often fiddle around with something.
Also with the g27 this "standing still friction" meant if you dared to turn the wheel it would sound like shredding the internals

I guess I'll have to try dirt rally (1 and 2) with damper and spring to 0. Maybe I'll like it better too

No no, I'm not saying I like it better that way, just saying that was the only way I could get it feeling decent, apparently because my damper was at 0. Everything else I'd experienced felt not pleasant so I thought leaving the wheel/tire friction at 0 was the only way to get good FFB, which I did find odd. I was reading your guys' comments as saying DR did not need any spring/damper added but apparently I didn't understand correctly. I know for sure ATS does because without spring and damper there's literally 0 FFB. I will be at my rig in a couple hours so I can test it out and report back. I'm still questioning the spring though because when I went into DR with 50% spring in the control panel the FFB did not feel right.

Thanks for the infos. Even though we're not quite on the same game I have a feeling this will make my DR experience even better. I'm already pretty pleased with the FFB settings I ended up landing on so any improvement will be some really nice icing on the cake.

 

[RasmusP]

I guess we all know this but just to make it clear again:
Spring and damper do nothing at all on their own. They are like the overall ffb gain slider.
If the game has no ffb output, there won't be ffb. If the game has no spring oder damper specific output, they do nothing either.

Only the "center spring" that you should only activate for non-ffb games in the drivers actually does pull the wheel back to the center in its own and at all times but the spring and damper ffb channels are empty.

So most games simply don't use them anyway. AC only uses damper for standing still and maybe for the gyro thingy. ACC uses damper for standing still and I think for the dynamic dampening.
Both don't use the spring channel though.

Sadly nobody ever officially told us what dirt rally sends to the spring and damper channels but it's definitely "something", lol.

 

[Brandon Wright]

I guess we all know this but just to make it clear again:
Spring and damper do nothing at all on their own. They are like the overall ffb gain slider.
If the game has no ffb output, there won't be ffb. If the game has no spring oder damper specific output, they do nothing either.

Only the "center spring" that you should only activate for non-ffb games in the drivers actually does pull the wheel back to the center in its own and at all times but the spring and damper ffb channels are empty.

So most games simply don't use them anyway. AC only uses damper for standing still and maybe for the gyro thingy. ACC uses damper for standing still and I think for the dynamic dampening.
Both don't use the spring channel though.

Sadly nobody ever officially told us what dirt rally sends to the spring and damper channels but it's definitely "something", lol.

I did not know that, I've always seen that spring and damper should be kept at 0 unless a game specifically requires them. I knew about the AC slow speed thing but I did not know DR needed spring and damper which was why Martin's comments seemed contradictory to me. But now it all makes sense and I'm looking forward to trying some new settings this evening.

 

[Case_]

You were saying that in games like Dirt Rally having the spring and damper cranked up should not have any impact on how the FFB feels but I can most certainly feel a difference when I forget to turn the spring back to 0.

That's not what I was saying, though:

It is a myth that you add extra damping by leaving the damper slider in your wheel's control panel at values above 0, even if it is left at the default 100 %. Unless the game is actively using the damper force, the slider has no effect on the perceived FFB.

It doesn't. Unless the game is actively using the spring force, the slider has no effect on the perceived FFB.

Not true. Unless the game is actively using the damper or spring forces, the sliders have no effect on the perceived FFB.

If you thought I was simply saying spring and damper have no effect in games, you've missed the part I highlighted. Dirt Rally definitely uses at least the damper forces to model its FFB, so you should absolutely feel a difference depending on how you set the damper in the wheel's control panel - if you set it to 0, certain parts of the game's FFB will be missing (and some of the in-game sliders will therefore have no effect on the FFB feel).

In fact I usually use Dirt Rally as an example of why you *shouldn't* set spring/damper to 0.

Edit: OK, I didn't see there were more posts about it in the meantime, sorry.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

It's actually friction but perhaps it translates to damper settings for T300RS.

https://community.granitedevices.com/t/directinput-effect-settings/938

 

[RasmusP]

I have a question on this then. Right now I'm mainly playing two games, the first Dirt Rally and American Truck Simulator. I've always run with spring and damper at 0 but in ATS if I use those settings I have no FFB other than vibrations. I turn the spring to 50 and the damper to 100 and then I have fairly nice FFB in ATS. But of course when I fire up DR I forget to change the spring and damper settings back and right away I can tell that the FFB feels weird, so I alt-tab to the profiler to turn spring/damper to 0 and then go back to the game and the FFB feels right again. So this would suggest the opposite of what you're saying? I'm thinking it's just the spring that makes my FFB feel weird in DR1.0 and not the damper. I'm going to fiddle with these settings tonight but as of now I know that having spring at greater than 0 makes my FFB in DR1.0 feel numb and weird.

Not trying to argue or anything, I'm genuinely curious about this.



D1 drifting is really nothing like rally drifting, I don't believe using this technique would benefit you in Dirt Rally. I've watched a lot of rally racing and even done a couple rallycross events myself (as well as a shedload of snow drifting in empty parking lots), I don't believe I've ever seen a rally driver use anything close to that drifting technique. It's usually yank the brake, countersteer through the slide, then straighten up the wheel as you throttle out. As my AutoX instructor told me, you should never let go of the wheel and let it spin freely unless you're in a dedicated drift car.

You can see on this video how he does it on snow, at no point does the wheel spin quickly on its own nor does he ever fully take his hands off the wheel, and he is manually bringing the wheel back to center. This is exactly how I do it in Dirt Rally with my T300 and in my real car. Watch any random Chris Harris video and you'll likely see the same technique. Skip to 1:06.

And to show I somewhat know what I'm talking about, here I am having some fun in the snow last winter.

Thanks for these!
Looks like at least with awd on snow you're holding a 4-wheel drift by keeping the front wheels pointing into the corner instead of having them in opposite lock like those tarmac drift cars.
It's making more sense now. Not because dirt rally 2 got it right (I used rwd on tarmac) but I at least know why it is like it is.
It's probably coming from loose surface simulation with the awd cars not being well transcripted to tarmac and to rwd.

 

[Brandon Wright]

That's not what I was saying, though:

It is a myth that you add extra damping by leaving the damper slider in your wheel's control panel at values above 0, even if it is left at the default 100 %. Unless the game is actively using the damper force, the slider has no effect on the perceived FFB.

It doesn't. Unless the game is actively using the spring force, the slider has no effect on the perceived FFB.

Not true. Unless the game is actively using the damper or spring forces, the sliders have no effect on the perceived FFB.

If you thought I was simply saying spring and damper have no effect in games, you've missed the part I highlighted. Dirt Rally definitely uses at least the damper forces to model its FFB, so you should absolutely feel a difference depending on how you set the damper in the wheel's control panel - if you set it to 0, certain parts of the game's FFB will be missing (and some of the in-game sliders will therefore have no effect on the FFB feel).

In fact I usually use Dirt Rally as an example of why you *shouldn't* set spring/damper to 0.

Edit: OK, I didn't see there were more posts about it in the meantime, sorry.

Right, when I made that comment I was just interpreting it backwards I guess, which is why I asked for clarification that you all kindly provided. And good news, last night in DR 1.0 I cranked up the spring and damper in my control panel and added some wheel friction in the game and it made a notable improvement to the FFB. I was happy with the settings I'd settled on but felt it was still missing a bit, now the blanks have all been filled in and I must say it feels quite good on loose surfaces. I didn't try any tarmac but I'm sure that still feels bizarre and wrong.

Thanks again for all your help, I'm supremely happy with this improvement.

Thanks for these!
Looks like at least with awd on snow you're holding a 4-wheel drift by keeping the front wheels pointing into the corner instead of having them in opposite lock like those tarmac drift cars.
It's making more sense now. Not because dirt rally 2 got it right (I used rwd on tarmac) but I at least know why it is like it is.
It's probably coming from loose surface simulation with the awd cars not being well transcripted to tarmac and to rwd.

Correct, in a drift you typically want your front wheels pointing in the direction you want to go and then balancing throttle with slip angle. The drift car in your video is the only time you'd ever use that technique, which is more about being flashy than being fast. If you want to be fast you don't want the wheel turning or rear end sliding anymore than they need to. And with AWD you literally point the wheels where you want to go and use all those drive wheels to kinda shove/pull you in that direction. You kinda do the same with FWD, let the rear step out and then use the front wheels to pull it out of the slide, but that's a bit trickier. IMO drifting in games is harder than in real life, I started doing it with my first truck when I was 17 years old but I've been sim racing for over a decade and am still kinda rubbish at it in any game besides Dirt Rally.

 

[Case_]

@Brandon Wright That's great to hear, cheers.

(Also, I am still kinda lost in the descriptions of various drifting techniques, but I feel like what you are describing is generally how I do it, or at least close. No racing education or anything, it just kinda always felt natural to me.)

 

[Brandon Wright]

@Brandon Wright That's great to hear, cheers.

(Also, I am still kinda lost in the descriptions of various drifting techniques, but I feel like what you are describing is generally how I do it, or at least close. No racing education or anything, it just kinda always felt natural to me.)

You're probably doing it right then, I think it should feel kinda natural, just let your hands and feet do what they know to do. The spinning wheel technique is typically only for drift cars where speed isn't important, it's all about the show. It's impressive though! But if you're trying to be fast I don't believe that technique would help you much. Just break the back end loose and let it swing out a bit, countersteer to point the wheels in the direction you want the car to go (this happens pretty naturally, the car should just kinda do it), modulate the throttle to keep the slip angle from getting too extreme, once you feel the sideways momentum stop start straightening up the wheel and gradually feed in more throttle until you're WOT and slinging a roostertail of dirt and gravel behind you.

I find it's pretty easy to do in Dirt Rally, maybe a tad too easy but it's a whole lot of fun and makes me feel like a driving god so I'm good with it. But it does feel right, in other games I have to modify my real-world technique to work with the game mechanics but in Dirt Rally it responds pretty much just how I want/expect it too, and damn is it satisfying!