AC Multiclass Abarth 500/Mazda MX5@Cathedral Rock, Wed 4th January 2023

Assetto Corsa Racing Club event
I had a blast of a race, not a single dull moment! :laugh: Found a bit of time in practice after driving shotgun with our front runners and learning a new line through 2 corners and even managed P5 on qualy. :D Had a good start and first laps keeping my position. Then the fun begun early as I tried to gain places but a silly mistake cost me a few, after I attempted an outbrake maneuver at the sharp left handler but the sand and (proper) kerbs inside destabilized my braking and couldn't fully stop where I expected, hence sliding broadside into @johnny85ac (apologies once more mate :( ). We both managed to recover quickly but I had a larger loss of places so the recovery work started... and so did a long, feisty stint trying to pass Han @HF2000 ...this track equalised the strenghts of both cars as I could close in at the esses but he would recover at the straights. Robert caught up and joined the party but I decided to go for the undercut and pitted with 37 minutes to go.

Alas my attempt proved naught as Han pitted shortly afterwards and exited just in front of me... :confused: And so the battle raged on. The struggle allowed Robert and Steve to catch up and as they joined the fray we started trading places chasing Han due to silly mistakes that costed dearly due to the 'quicksand effect' of the "grass" and "kerbs" on this track... seriously, I knew about "floor is lava" but not about "kerbs are tar". :cautious: Pitstops engorged traffic and I had a few fun moments with Bouke and Hank, so unfortunate that the tar pits got you guys. I kept the chase on the pack as it caught up with Dave & Co. during the final laps... Hank joined in and we had a 3-wide moment through the esses together with Robert which culminated with a literal sprint-race to the end line, delivering a true photo-finish. :roflmao: It was a blast! Thanks guys for all the fun, congrats to the winners and podiums and Han for concocting this fun race... this track proved to be fantastic for our Multiclass! :thumbsup:

I can't recall where I finished but my wrists were on fire. This was my first race with the new T818 DD wheelbase and it delivered more fun and performance that I had hoped for. :notworthy: More than the power is the amount of detail this thing communicates and the speed in which that information is given... I could hold and recover slides that the old TS-PC would be too slow for. It's fractions of a second but enough to make a big difference. I adjusted it to constant 7nm but still have to fine-tune it. Yet, this was a true baptism-of-fire, especially for my wrists, haha! :p What a track to do so.

And a shout-out goes to our newcomers! You guys did great, especially given the hectic nature of this circuit and the eagerness of the old guard during the race. Keep practicing and keep coming to the wednesday's races, that's how we all got where we are now. I hope you enjoyed the experience. I'm looking forward to next week's event, hope to see you all there! :coffee:
 
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attempted an outbrake maneuver at the sharp left handler but the sand and (proper) kerbs inside destabilized my braking and couldn't fully stop where I expected, hence sliding broadside into @johnny85ac (apologies once more mate :( )
It‘s okay mate, such things happen. :thumbsup:

First I didn‘t know what happened because I thought there was a bit of a gap between us before the braking zone and I did not expect you to overtake there. But appearently I braked a bit too early, giving you the chance to dive in.
In the end it did not affect my result. :cool:
 
Took Paul out first lap, that was shame.
It happens Bouke, thanks for the apology,I got took out on the next lap as well (will PM that driver) so my race was over before it started really.:(
One thing to appreciate is the difference between these cars, the MX5 has so much better braking and cornering performance that you have to make allowances when up behind an Abarth, they are going to understeer and have to lift where the MX5 is on power.
It might be an exercise for regular MX5 drivers to do the odd race in the Italian shopping trolley to get an understanding of how tricky they can be to get through some corners.
After my two forced offs, I pitted early and got my head down. Had a good race with Tom and then at the end tried to get close to Colin but the race ended a lap too early as we crossed the line side by side.
Thanks Han for organizing and well done podiums.
 
That was a really fun race from my perspective. I wasn't very confident after a quick practice but some tips from @Dzul really helped me unlock the track.

I got a good start and missed most of the first lap chaos. I wasn't fast but, for once, I did seem to have some consistency which meant I was able to hold a surprising 6th for most of the race.

I knew I wasn't fast enough to hold it and the pack behind would eventually catch me. Unfortuantely I defended a bit too hard against Robert and we came together letting the chasing pack past.
Had some really great battles today with a spread of drivers. Sorry for that bump david! Either was a racing incident, or my fault, hope it didn't knock you off track too much. Great laps leading up to that :thumbsup:

It seemed 50:50 to me and in retrospect I could have backed out of it and used the slipstream to try and get past again later. Sorry - for my part in that one. Lesson learned.

A great battle in the last lap with fractions of a second covering four of us going across the line. I had a nice buzzing feeling after that one :)
 
This was my first race with the new T818 DD wheelbase and it delivered more fun and performance that I had hoped for.
I also have a TS-PC and am considering getting that. Is it worth buying? Six years ago I switched from the G27 to the TS-PC. And it was a huge step forward.
 
I also have a TS-PC and am considering getting that. Is it worth buying? Six years ago I switched from the G27 to the TS-PC. And it was a huge step forward.
the true reality from belt and DD The difference is tiny tiny . Edit : i was at 7nm belt now 8-10 depend on the car with dd and the ffb is almost the same kerbs , sliding , understeer oversteer etc...
 
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I also have a TS-PC and am considering getting that. Is it worth buying? Six years ago I switched from the G27 to the TS-PC. And it was a huge step forward.
I had a ts-pc for 3 weeks and then bought a csw 2.5.
I also tested the csl DD 5nm for a week.

I'd say the ts-pc is really really good. It could be a slight bit stronger but it's strong enough.
My base had massive coil whine though and the replacement was the same so I got my money back and put it into fanatec.

The differences between ts-pc and a dd wheel are:
- a lot stronger so it can rotate quicker and give more feedback and immersion

- it has not the high natural resistance from the wheelbase without any ffb

The question is whether or not you'd like to put your ts-pc to 120-200%?


The main point is the reduced resistance from the wheelbase but that one is a bit tricky.
A lot of people with dd wheels use completely unrealistic settings with very low damping/friction/inertia values but pretty strong ffb.

A good indicator is:
Drive 250-300 in a GT3 and let go of the wheel. It should move, but it should !not! start to wildly oscillate and spin the car out on its own.

If it does, you either need to lower the gain or raise one of the 3 tuning settings every dd wheel has.

Sources for my statement are mclarenF1papa and the other physics guys from some absolute high-end car mods.

What I wanna say:
Yes, it will be better and it might be worth the money for you.
But the "I'm blown away" feeling probably comes from an "unrealistic overly alive wheel" that gives you plenty of quick feedback but if you take your hands off, it will instantly oscillate and spin the car.

It's like running a car on the rims instead of air inflated tyres.

Totally fine to use and it can indeed feel pretty awesome.
It was too weird for me though...
 
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I also have a TS-PC and am considering getting that. Is it worth buying? Six years ago I switched from the G27 to the TS-PC. And it was a huge step forward.

Hi Hank! I've had the T818 for a fortnight now and I am positively impressed, that's coming from a TS-PC. Is it worth buying? Short answer from my experience: YES... IF: you have TM wheel-rims already and really want the perks of a DD wheelbase over a belt-driven one, which are power but mostly more detail, smoothness and speed of delivery of the FFB.

How does a picky guy makes up his mind?

My wheel-journey has been quite varied as I've had a bit of everything from Logitech (Formula GP, MOMO Racing, G25) and Thrustmaster (T300, TS-PC, T818) through the decades. I was very happy with the TS-PC as that thing is relatively strong and delivers quite good FFB, and it pairs well with my TLCM pedals and several wheel-rims. I saw DD wheels more as an expense rather than an investment, until the CSL-DD broke the price barrier, yet still had no theoretical reason to switch. But then I tried a DD1 at Racesquare a few times this summer (it was tuned down but still) and started to notice differences to the belt-driven wheel I had. Differences I thought were worth considering: mostly the amount of detail, the smoothness and the speed at which the FFB was delivered. Imola on a GT3 in AC felt like a much more complex track with a DD wheel and my laptimes had improved. That ought to change my mind.

So I pondered jumping ship but Fanatec was out of stock on the CSL-DDs and, as I was researching Moza's R9, the announcement of the T818 reveal date came out. Now, I was not really on a rush and as I own several wheel-rims from Thrustmaster already, the fact that it would be compatible with all my gear convinced me to have a bit of patience and wait for november, when all the specs and price would finally be revealed. I was expecting a tag of €575 (a nice Ferrari number) so the final price was not a bomb to me. I knew if I jumped ship to Moza I would not just stop at the wheelbase, and that delivered a very different price tag on the long run, in comparison. That played a relevant role in my decision.

So far I am very happy I got the T818. It is a proper DD wheel that fits right in the bracket of the Moza R9 and the CSL-DD. If you already have TM wheel-rims then I think this is a very good choice for a DD upgrade since it has more "value-for-money". I do think it is apalling TM does not include either a desk or rig mount (you have to buy what you need separately) but that's typical TM. I can definitely recommend the rig-baseplate instead of just drilling holes to make the T818 fit (not a standard size) since it provides a broader contact area and more screws (8 instead of 4) to share the FFB load. Also, the bottom of that rig-baseplate is VERY sticky so the wheelbase is ridiculously stable now... I had to re-tighten all the screws on my F-GT rig to ensure rigidity, haha!

What the T818 has given me over the TS-PC is more confidence, by providing more detailed information at a faster rate. That translates in better lap consistency and extra tenths of a second. I noticed that already on our wednesday race and that's why I can answer your question with a YES. It is worth the upgrade. Of course adapting is necessary and I am still fiddling with settings (will def' follow Rasmus' advice!) so I can get the most out of it. I can tell you how things are six months down the road, the test of time is always the most important after all... ;)

Sorry for the "extended edition" of my opinion, hope it helps though.
As perhaps this review will to:

 
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Hi Hank! I've had the T818 for a fortnight now and I am positively impressed, that's coming from a TS-PC. Is it worth buying? Short answer from my experience: YES... IF: you have TM wheel-rims already and really want the perks of a DD wheelbase over a belt-driven one, which are power but mostly more detail, smoothness and speed of delivery of the FFB.

How does a picky guy makes up his mind?

My wheel-journey has been quite varied as I've had a bit of everything from Logitech (Formula GP, MOMO Racing, G25) and Thrustmaster (T300, TS-PC, T818) through the decades. I was very happy with the TS-PC as that thing is relatively strong and delivers quite good FFB, and it pairs well with my TLCM pedals and several wheel-rims. I saw DD wheels more as an expense rather than an investment, until the CSL-DD broke the price barrier, yet still had no theoretical reason to switch. But then I tried a DD1 at Racesquare a few times this summer (it was tuned down but still) and started to notice differences to the belt-driven wheel I had. Differences I thought were worth considering: mostly the amount of detail, the smoothness and the speed at which the FFB was delivered. Imola on a GT3 in AC felt like a much more complex track with a DD wheel and my laptimes had improved. That ought to change my mind.

So I pondered jumping ship but Fanatec was out of stock on the CSL-DDs and, as I was researching Moza's R9, the announcement of the T818 reveal date came out. Now, I was not really on a rush and as I own several wheel-rims from Thrustmaster already, the fact that it would be compatible with all my gear convinced me to have a bit of patience and wait for november, when all the specs and price would finally be revealed. I was expecting a tag of €575 (a nice Ferrari number) so the final price was not a bomb to me. I knew if I jumped ship to Moza I would not just stop at the wheelbase, and that delivered a very different price tag on the long run, in comparison. That played a relevant role in my decision.

So far I am very happy I got the T818. It is a proper DD wheel that fits right in the bracket of the Moza R9 and the CSL-DD. If you already have TM wheel-rims then I think this is a very good choice for a DD upgrade since it has more "value-for-money". I do think it is apalling TM does not include either a desk or rig mount (you have to buy what you need separately) but that's typical TM. I can definitely recommend the rig-baseplate instead of just drilling holes to make the T818 fit (not a standard size) since it provides a broader contact area and more screws (8 instead of 4) to share the FFB load. Also, the bottom of that rig-baseplate is VERY sticky so the wheelbase is ridiculously stable now... I had to re-tighten all the screws on my F-GT rig to ensure rigidity, haha!

What the T818 has given me over the TS-PC is more confidence, by providing more detailed information at a faster rate. That translates in better lap consistency and extra tenths of a second. I noticed that already on our wednesday race and that's why I can answer your question with a YES. It is worth the upgrade. Of course adapting is necessary and I am still fiddling with settings (will def' follow Rasmus' advice!) so I can get the most out of it. I can tell you how things are six months down the road, the test of time is always the most important after all... ;)

Sorry for the "extended edition" of my opinion, hope it helps though.
As perhaps this review will to:

Nice write up!

And I want to state that I'm not saying it wouldn't be worth it or anything!
I was just saying that imo the ts-pc is already a very awesome wheel and maybe you could get the same laptime improvement by changing a few settings and adapting to them.

But ofc the new TM dd is a great product and if you have the money for it and already some rims, definitely get it.
The PSU and the start up calibration of the ts-pc would already be enough for me to make it worth haha.

May I ask your old and new settings?
Not sure how the dd tm settings look like but they are probably very similar to all other dd wheels.

And your AC settings too.
Would be interesting to me to see what you changed and where the difference comes from!

I totally agree that the ts-pc is way slower than any dd wheel.
I just really liked the tight and chunky center position feel of the ts-pc. :D
My csw 2.5 is almost as smooth and quick as the csl dd but it lacks the inertia setting (only has natural damping) and feels pretty "empty" around the center in games that can't be as fine tuned as AC.
 
I had a ts-pc for 3 weeks and then bought a csw 2.5.
I also tested the csl DD 5nm for a week.

I'd say the ts-pc is really really good. It could be a slight bit stronger but it's strong enough.
My base had massive coil whine though and the replacement was the same so I got my money back and put it into fanatec.

The differences between ts-pc and a dd wheel are:
- a lot stronger so it can rotate quicker and give more feedback and immersion

- it has not the high natural resistance from the wheelbase without any ffb

The question is whether or not you'd like to put your ts-pc to 120-200%?


The main point is the reduced resistance from the wheelbase but that one is a bit tricky.
A lot of people with dd wheels use completely unrealistic settings with very low damping/friction/inertia values but pretty strong ffb.

A good indicator is:
Drive 250-300 in a GT3 and let go of the wheel. It should move, but it should !not! start to wildly oscillate and spin the car out on its own.

If it does, you either need to lower the gain or raise one of the 3 tuning settings every dd wheel has.

Sources for my statement are mclarenF1papa and the other physics guys from some absolute high-end car mods.

What I wanna say:
Yes, it will be better and it might be worth the money for you.
But the "I'm blown away" feeling probably comes from an "unrealistic overly alive wheel" that gives you plenty of quick feedback but if you take your hands off, it will instantly oscillate and spin the car.

It's like running a car on the rims instead of air inflated tyres.

Totally fine to use and it can indeed feel pretty awesome.
It was too weird for me though...
In my CSL DD 8Nnm base I have the wild oscillation that you describe but I use the recommended settings and cars specific FFB gain set to 80%. Even switching FFB to 50% produces oscillations.

Here are my settings

Screenshot 2023-01-06 114228.jpg


What would you suggest I change?
 
Nice write up!

And I want to state that I'm not saying it wouldn't be worth it or anything!
I was just saying that imo the ts-pc is already a very awesome wheel and maybe you could get the same laptime improvement by changing a few settings and adapting to them.

Thanks Rasmus! :)

No worries, I completely agree that the TS-PC is very, very good. I know of some who do impressive things on track with it (not me haha! ;) )... I think the key element is whether you FEEL the need for speed... ehm, sorry... the need to "upgrade" to DD. A lot goes on skills and how you can make the most out of the information the wheel provides you... IIRC Chris Down does alien things on a T300 RS? To me the extra information I get from my T818 (compared to my TS-PC) is making a difference which make me very enthousiastic. :laugh:

Still, it could be indeed the case that I was not making the most out of the settings of the TS-PC, certainly. I'll try to dig the settings out for comparison. One thing that may be worth mentioning is that Thrustmaster has no "special software" to tune up the T818. It's the same boring Windows control panel all their old wheels use. TBH I was expecting them to throw the T818 into their "H.E.A.R.T." ecosystem but perhaps the sprint to their deadline left them short of time in their software department? My hopes are that this will eventually be the case in future firmware/software updates. The current information you get is bare-bones ATM with the biggest feature being the 4 'modes' (Comfort / Sport / Performance / Extreme) which provide different strenghts on the FFB. This is the current major letdown, but it's something that I expect to be improved on in the future.

I'll look up the settings when I get behind the rig in the weekend... :thumbsup:
 
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In my CSL DD 8Nnm base I have the wild oscillation that you describe but I use the recommended settings and cars specific FFB gain set to 80%. Even switching FFB to 50% produces oscillations.

Here are my settings

View attachment 628871

What would you suggest I change?
When I had the csl dd for testing I tried to get this beefy center position feel of real cars and the ts-pc, which my csw 2.5 is lacking.
I've found that the inertia slider is brilliant.
It gives some very slight delay for low ffb rotations to start but it mostly slows your own hands down, not the wheel.
I had no issues catching any slide!

Try 20% inertia and 2% friction.
That should calm the wheel down already.

Are you using the csp ffb tweaks extension?
I don't remember what we configured the last time..

The new gyro should be activated (although apparently buggy sometimes with 0.1.80...).

And range compression should be 100%, otherwise you'd need to lower the gain further.

I'm currently using 150% range compression with 40% gain in the menu, cars between 75-130%.

The rss GT1 Lambo at 90% as a benchmark.

In dirt rally 2.0 I put the wheel and tyre friction to 0 and then set inertia to 50% :D
 
When I had the csl dd for testing I tried to get this beefy center position feel of real cars and the ts-pc, which my csw 2.5 is lacking.
I've found that the inertia slider is brilliant.
It gives some very slight delay for low ffb rotations to start but it mostly slows your own hands down, not the wheel.
I had no issues catching any slide!

Try 20% inertia and 2% friction.
That should calm the wheel down already.

Are you using the csp ffb tweaks extension?
I don't remember what we configured the last time..

The new gyro should be activated (although apparently buggy sometimes with 0.1.80...).

And range compression should be 100%, otherwise you'd need to lower the gain further.

I'm currently using 150% range compression with 40% gain in the menu, cars between 75-130%.

The rss GT1 Lambo at 90% as a benchmark.

In dirt rally 2.0 I put the wheel and tyre friction to 0 and then set inertia to 50% :D
I already had the CSP extension set as you said.

I'll try the other settings

Ta
 
Thank you for your detailed answers.

As I said, I only had the two mentioned wheels so far. So I would call myself anything but a hardware expert. I need good advice because I can't test anywhere. My situation: I'm actually completely satisfied with my current material. That would be the TS-PC (open wheel and normal steering wheel), T-LCM and TH8A. But after many years of having fun with it and realizing that this hobby is only going to get bigger (mainly thanks to the RD Racing Club :thumbsup:), I've come to the decision that I could take the next big step. It could also be something completely different.

If someone could make me a good suggestion I would be very grateful.

Addition: I don't think I've ever changed any settings on the TS-PC. Maybe that's the solution too? Does anyone have a tip?
 
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My suggestion would be to define for yourself what do you want out of simracing and invest accordingly. How much time can/will you put into it and what kind of hardware can deliver to those expectations?

You sound like you want to step up from "having fun" to "perform better". In that case a DD and maybe even pedals with more finesse are the way to go. Then is the question of money (return-on-investment). What can you afford that suits your goals.

We can only suggest. I'd be happy to have a "remote beer" on Discord if you want to further chat about it. Just send me a DM... :thumbsup:
 

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