Motion system with 10000$ budget

[Pablo Roldan]

I have a rig with a tactile system built which i feel pretty good but from what i have read in this forum i with all probabity have no idea what i really good tactil system feels like.

Besides improving it which i think should be the first thing before going for a motion system i am thinking and thinking (or dreaming and dreaming) about what a motion route go for.

I like actuators because of the heave, and pitch to surf the road, but i see people with actuators and still using a seat mover to kind of feel de G-forces (even not sustained).So i am wandering which combination would work best for me:

1-Actuators+Seat mover (No traction loss, i am not building a >4 actuators setup in my room)
2-Actuators with G-seat (Simulated traction loss, and i wander if a g-seat fully replace seat mover)
3-Next limit Traction loss + Seat mover/Gseat (Missing the heave and pitch, but really would like to know how that nexlimit traction loss platform feels,if someone have it and can tell)

Or any other combination you find the best for you,i am just pointing these 3 out.

A G-Belt could fit on any i guess.

If you had around 10000$ what motion system would you build?(Not including pedals/wheel,shifter).

 

[OlaGB]

This is all very good info¡

Thanks a lot for bringing Sigma DK2 on the table. I am going to check reviews.(In fact i saw it long ago but forgot about it)

Is a shame simxperience,dbox and sigma sell only from EEUU.With tax and duties i could end up paying 50% more for their products. But ill have a lot.

Pt actuator even if they have 15cm travel lengh i guess you can narrow it to match that of DK , DBox or to your liking can't you?.Since i am using only VR even if i dont like how bulky PT Actuator are they surely fit my needs.(Didnt know about the risk of EMI issues on PT-Actuators, i did however heard of it on SFX100).

Also for my needs (that i said are mainly Gt/F1 racing) 3 actuators would be enough (2back 1 front)?.

What would be the main difference between 3 and 4 actuators?, because the pitch has to be the same and the roll....lyou feel it less in the feet?.Maybe even for gt/f1 racing that gives you a bit more feeling of being thrown to the sides on curves?

Not sure if such a limiting of travel affects the system in any way, but if it does not, that would definently keep PT in the loop of interest for me as well.

 

[metalnwood]

I think 150mm offers you very little over 100 for racing. Maybe for the pitch axis if you really like tilting the rig for slopes but 100 alreay gives you a lot of roll on most rigs.

I can imagine wondering if the rig will lose balance at maximim roll on those long ones

It would be great for flight sims though, mainly having the extra heave and pitch, great for helicopters. Given the actuators not not spaced widely apart the roll isnt bad on the 100's

 

[DJ_Psymon]

If you have not driven on the Nord or Spa in real life, then the benefit of 150mm is probably irrelevant for you. But once you've driven on those tracks, you would immediately notice what's really missing from the 50mm / 1.5 inch systems and it can't be fixed unless you replace the system completely.

I decided to go with SFX100 after trying the DBox 1.5" extensively, then upgraded to 150mm. Combined with VR and motion compensation, it's the most immersive sim racing and closest to the real life experience.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck in your search!

 

[OlaGB]

I think 150mm offers you very little over 100 for racing. Maybe for the pitch axis if you really like tilting the rig for slopes but 100 alreay gives you a lot of roll on most rigs.

I can imagine wondering if the rig will lose balance at maximim roll on those long ones

It would be great for flight sims though, mainly having the extra heave and pitch, great for helicopters. Given the actuators not not spaced widely apart the roll isnt bad on the 100's

Alittle more pitch and heave would be good i guess, but alot of roll is definently not something i’m looking for in a motion system for car racing.

 

[metalnwood]

Yes, and like you say, you can limit things in software, because it can roll more you dont have to and you may be like @DJ_Psymon and like the extra more.

 

[Pablo Roldan]

I am really liking the Sigma DK2. But if the performance of DBOX,DK2,PT-Actuators,SFX150 have the same performance and the only real diference is a bit of work from your side to set things up, looks like a no brainer going for SFX150 or PT-Actuators.You can always limit pitch and roll via software.

Still wondering if DK2 , DBOX have something on their side that SFX150 , PT-Actuators cant deliver.If not PT-Actuators looks like the safest bet for me.

 

[metalnwood]

I think, I dont know for sure that the DBOX does have something that gives a better tactile feeling than the other solutions, i.e. sfx and PT offer.

I think I read something that DBOX have something that does their tactile which is different than how other actuators do it.

However, if it really did do that aspect better I could not imagine that it could do it better than PT/SFX paired with good tactile transducers, which would still come under cost of dbox while also offering things that dbox just does not offer, i.e. larger range of motion.

I think a large aspect of the DBOX cost is not in performance but in what the company can charge because their clientele is not you and I but companies who are prepared to pay for it.

 

[Pablo Roldan]

Another thing that worries me is the seating posture. I am also upgrading my rig and bucket.

I would like to drive a bit more reclined.Not as much as an f1, but with pedals tilted like 45º a bit rised and my back reclined a bit more than what i see ricing buckets provide.

Are there bucket with a reclining back or something similar?

What driving posture do you like for GT/F1 and what rigs/buckets do you use to achive it?.For me as i said would like something in between f1 and gt.

PD:Last night i opened a new thread about this under "Sim racing Hardware" and today i cant find it.Are there limits to the numer of threads you can open in a given time?

 

[Pablo Roldan]

I think, I dont know for sure that the DBOX does have something that gives a better tactile feeling than the other solutions, i.e. sfx and PT offer.

I think I read something that DBOX have something that does their tactile which is different than how other actuators do it.

However, if it really did do that aspect better I could not imagine that it could do it better than PT/SFX paired with good tactile transducers, which would still come under cost of dbox while also offering things that dbox just does not offer, i.e. larger range of motion.

I think a large aspect of the DBOX cost is not in performance but in what the company can charge because their clientele is not you and I but companies who are prepared to pay for it.

Yes.Watching the SRG review of the Dbox 4250i gen 3 he points out that ability of the DBOX system of doing the vibration/movement all by its own which makes feel everything integrated (this are not his words but kind of).

 

[metalnwood]

I have my bucket seat reclined at about 40 degrees, its a sparco evo 2. There is no issue with that and it is similar to the attached picture which is about 40 degrees. The thing is that most bucket seat have a similiar relationship between the angle of the seat to the back. When you go to proper formula then that angle gets larger.

There are fixed seats that have a more formula position and I suggest that with motion you stick with a hard shell seat, not a car seat with springs/padding.

I find my position works well for both positions but YMMV

 

[metalnwood]

you could get an inclinometer on yout phone and measure how far your seat is reclined, it would be interesting.

 

[Pablo Roldan]

you could get an inclinometer on yout phone and measure how far your seat is reclined, it would be interesting.

The seat i use right now is laying flat and his fixed back is 20º reclined.

Rotating all the seat 20 more degrees and rising the pedals sounds good.I am using a playseat now and can not make those tries until i have the new rig and bucket.

Right now the rigs i like are similar to this https://simracer.es/no-wheels-sim-lc-x-pro/ but lacks flexibility for the pedals position.

I have also looked at this one https://www.custom-cockpits.com/cockpit-kr135evo.html that seems to have everything covered or https://sim-lab.eu/shop/product/p1-x-sim-racing-cockpit-533?category=47#attr=323,498,434.


Any advice on the bucket material for the instalation of bodyshakers?.Drilling holes for a buttkicker adv on the back of the seat is a horrible idea?

Also the 8020 aluminium profile for the rig having in mind ill add motion in the future will be enough?. I like the looking of those more robust rigs with big base.

 

[Beef36]

I think, I dont know for sure that the DBOX does have something that gives a better tactile feeling than the other solutions, i.e. sfx and PT offer.

I think I read something that DBOX have something that does their tactile which is different than how other actuators do it.

A downside of D-Box is it has very limited game support. That is because it requires game developers to use D-Box's Software Development Kit (SDK), and most game companies aren't interested because the motion market is so small.

But use of that SDK may also explain why D-Box's motion "feel" is so highly rated.

 

[Tronicgr_6DOF]

Yes.Watching the SRG review of the Dbox 4250i gen 3 he points out that ability of the DBOX system of doing the vibration/movement all by its own which makes feel everything integrated (this are not his words but kind of).

 

[Pablo Roldan]

Ive seen that video and i was surprised by how the engine rumble was simulated, but every People i ask says it has to be complemented with a tactile system. That does not seem to be the same with the dbox 4250i gen3. Maybe somehow pt-actuators can only do convincing haptics once at a time.

But that dbox feature not sure is worth the lack of travel distance and price.

That is why Sigma Dk2 with its 2" travel distance and more affordable price is looking more interesting to me.In the SRG review says it is pretty good at simulating road vibrations, rumbles, etc.And maybe get ride of the whole tactile system, and just leave a buttkicker for engine rumble. Still a bit short travel distance but for the price and the "haptics" it May be worth for gt/f1.

Whether with the pk-actuators/sfx you still need the tactile system?

 

[Mr Latte]

Regards Motion Haptics
In the past week, I have been talking privately with Lukas (Lets Go Race) and asking him to do some specific tests of the D-Box tactile as really none of the sim hardware-based channels have ever offered much explanation of what its true capabilities and limitations are.

SRS also like D-Box motion appears to offer the user simplified controls (mainly volume). This is good from the aspect of keeping things simple. Yet it is a major weakness to what we can do with advanced effects creation/design with using tactile transducers and Simhub.

Clearly the video highlights very low Hz being applied (lots of energy bandwidth) and even too extreme levels of it, that owners of entry-level tactile do not get to experience.

Yet another potentially limiting factor seems to be the mapping/routing of effects. For example, how/where can you direct individual effects, or do all effects get output the same to all 4 actuators?

 

[Tronicgr_6DOF]

Regards Motion Haptics
In the past week, I have been talking privately with Lukas (Lets Go Race) and asking him to do some specific tests of the D-Box tactile as really none of the sim hardware-based channels have ever offered much explanation of what its true capabilities and limitations are.

SRS also like D-Box motion appears to offer the user simplified controls (mainly volume). This is good from the aspect of keeping things simple. Yet it is a major weakness to what we can do with advanced effects creation/design with using tactile transducers and Simhub.

Clearly the video highlights very low Hz being applied (lots of energy bandwidth) and even too extreme levels of it, that owners of entry-level tactile do not get to experience.

Yet another potentially limiting factor seems to be the mapping/routing of effects. For example, how/where can you direct individual effects, or do all effects get output the same to all 4 actuators?

Here is an old video that's shows stable amplitude with variable frequency (self test)..

Basically shows slow motion mixed with inserted low amplitude vibration, while varying its frequency. The actuator slows down, when the vibration is present as the algorithm I used was removing too much forward pulses as it was done all in hardware. Its mixed much better in software from SRS now. The engine vibration effect is uniformal to all actuators, If you are talking about suspension vibration, it's present when the appropriate motion data are available.

 

[Mr Latte]

Here is an old video that's shows stable amplitude with variable frequency (self test)..

Basically shows slow motion mixed with inserted low amplitude vibration, while varying its frequency. The actuator slows down, when the vibration is present as the algorithm I used was removing too much forward pulses as it was done all in hardware. Its mixed much better in software from SRS now. The engine vibration effect is uniformal to all actuators, If you are talking about suspension vibration, it's present when the appropriate motion data are available.

Yeah, so that seems similar to the haptic test on DBOX doing a set frequency sweep.

On something complex as engines, I assume SRS is (at best) implementing theirs to operate similarly as Simvibe based engine with harmonics. As the haptics will be limited to probably just over 100Hz? Therefore as the idle RPM for different cars will vary greatly as will their full RPM range. So one can only assume they seek to detect if the car is V4-V12 cylinder to then adapt what the fundamental frequency used, is. This to offer more suitable/usable frequencies for the cars with wider/larger RPM ranges?

While a nice feature to have and offer to motion owners, some drawbacks from this approach of "tactile" is that the user is limited to how good the effects are with no way of adapting them or tailoring them? That's also even before we take into account the limitations/issues of the generated tactile being output from the 4 corners and free to spread where it can over the whole rig frame. So even with positional effects, they are not necessarily reaching the users feet/body prior to possibly mixing L/R & F/R generated telemetry outputs.

 

[metalnwood]

SRS, from what I have seen only has limited engine vibration.

I have tried it and it blends in well with tactile but from what I feel, it's only really dealing with idling. Of course what it can produce at idling is a feeling that tactile cannot when you have that slight rocking. It doesnt have to move much for you to feel it when you have a seat that fits you well.

SRS is not really comparable in it's ability to change many things in the way that simhub can for tactile.

You then need to be looking at other software like flypt which allows you to do anything you want like simhub but then has the tradeoff, if you want to make very complex things with layers etc then there is more work required but the software supports you being able to do that.

Edit, and srs quite possibly expects you to use the tactile side of their sofware rather than try to implement equiv features in to the motion side.

 

[Tronicgr_6DOF]

SRS, from what I have seen only has limited engine vibration.

I have tried it and it blends in well with tactile but from what I feel, it's only really dealing with idling. Of course what it can produce at idling is a feeling that tactile cannot when you have that slight rocking. It doesnt have to move much for you to feel it when you have a seat that fits you well.

SRS is not really comparable in it's ability to change many things in the way that simhub can for tactile.

You then need to be looking at other software like flypt which allows you to do anything you want like simhub but then has the tradeoff, if you want to make very complex things with layers etc then there is more work required but the software supports you being able to do that.

Edit, and srs quite possibly expects you to use the tactile side of their sofware rather than try to implement equiv features in to the motion side.

SRS has pass through UDP game data, if you want to use simhub or other software for your tactile equipment...

UDP PORT FWD

As of Beta v2.17.0.26, SRS has implemented UDP PORT FWD feature. Some games uses UDP to send data for apps. You already know you can configure the port where SRS is listening to the app. See this article. Unfortunately, many UDP games can only connect directly to 1 app. Hence, SRS UDP FWD will...

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