Mad Max or Rash Ricciardo? Have Your Say!

Who do you think was to blame for the Red Bull coming together in Baku


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Ole Marius Myrvold

JWB 96-13
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Sep 29, 2009
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So, the exception is that you are allowed to move twice as long as you go line-off-line. Max went off-line-off though and has faced absolutely no consequences. So from the actions taken after the incident (none) it's legal to move twice under braking, surely?
That's the way I read it, yes. International Sporting Code Appendix L that covers driver conduct in all FIA events, lists in Chapter IV, 2b that "more than once change of direction to defend a position is not permitted". Thus two moves are illegal.
In addition 2b states " Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner."
This specifically states that if you have defended your position off-line, and move back towards the racing line, space must be given. You can argue that this is the only way you can possibly do two moves, and keep it legal. Of course it does not mention anything about two moves, and it can be intended for situations where you are off line from the start of the straight (which often happens), but nothing like that is stated. But yes, as far as I can see, this is the sole possibility of a double move that can be argued to be legal.

This is my opinion: First of all it's really hard to blame the car that's in front. The normal rule is that the car that's behind has the responsibility to make a clean overtake. Now you will probably be like: "That's not fair. Verstappen moved in the braking area. If this would be legal no one would be able to pass." That's true. You can't move in the braking zone. You can change your line once as a defending car though outside of the braking zone. My opinion: Verstappen didn't change his line. The only thing he did was closing the inside to give Daniel no space so he would need to go to the outside. He didn't really change his line. You can see this on the Max's onboard. The most important thing to watch when looking at the footage is the steering wheel and especially downshifting. You can see when downshifting he's not steering. He's going straight. This means the argument: "Max moved under braking" can be thrown out of the window. Also when looking at his steering wheel before this you can see he isn't really moving a lot. I wouldn't call this changing his line. The outside has always been open so Ricciardo should have gone to the outside. He thought he tricked Max into the outside so he could go to the inside. But Max accepted Daniel going to the outside and stayed at his line. I think this is a racing accident. If you would need to blame anyone it would be Daniel. 60% Daniel, 40% Max.
However, like the Stewards have noted, it's not about erratic and potential dangerous driving (which is the rule that covers a situation like moving in the braking zone and creating danger). It's about making more than one move. I don't think there are any doubts that Verstappen moved his car to the right after Ricciardo first moved right. Then later moved back left, thus moved twice.
Also, as long as it is done in a safe manner,- predictable, moving under braking are now permitted. As long as it's not a second move and/or creating a potentially dangerous situation.

Regardless, the issues here are before the actual braking zone.
 

keto95

250RPM
Jul 16, 2017
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The normal rule is that the car that's behind has the responsibility to make a clean overtake.
The normal rule is also that the car in front has the responsibility to drive predictable lines and not 'throwing' the car in the line of the car behind.
Especially with DRS enabled there's no time to react on the late blocking from Max. Both cars have to cooperate to make the pass possible. Max is playing his dirty tricks too long. A comparable situation happened with Raikkonen on Spa in 2016 (@ 40sec):
Karstenve so it is, nothing else, the same opinion like Jan Lammers, he knows what racing is about! :thumbsup:
Jan Lammers has lost his objectivity and became too much a Verstappen fanboy, like you are ... not to be taken seriously though.
 
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Mar 25, 2011
15
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And to say one was cornercutting on Baku... Just review the track. Hardly to say one can break tracklimits there... Only when one can let his car dissolve into nothing :p.
You tried to justify in illegal corner cut with a joke, but no. Max still managed to find an area where he got an advantage in the first part of the race. Obviously FIA closed both eyes as usual.
Try harder.
60% Daniel, 40% Max.
Yes and you have been kidnapped by aliens.
 

LeSunTzu

500RPM
Feb 13, 2013
818
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It is not the first time that Verstappen defends that way, not only just before the crash but the whole battle before. In the 60's he would have been dead already or stuck in a wheelchair forever. In the 70's or the 80's everyone would have put enormous pressure on him to calm down. Clearly F1 is no longer working that way. The level of safety and the will to have a "show for the fans" (i.e. to make a lot of money) has increased the tolerance about that kind of racing moves.

I don't know if it is reading too much into Brawn's reaction, but as an F1 official, he is not questioning the move but the technical regulations that currently make that kind of battle so hard for the guy who tries to pass. So maybe Liberty Media is just happy with that kind of show.
 
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RoMaN14

100RPM
Dec 14, 2011
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It is not the first time that Verstappen defends that way, not only just before the crash but the whole battle before. In the 60's he would have been dead already or stuck in a wheelchair forever. In the 70's or the 80's everyone would have put enormous pressure on him to calm down. Clearly F1 is no longer working that way. The level of safety and the will to have a "show for the fans" (i.e. to make a lot of money) has increased the tolerance about that kind of racing moves.

I don't know if it is reading too much into Brawn's reaction, but as an F1 official, he is not questioning the move but the technical regulations that currently make that kind of battle so hard. So maybe Liberty Media is just happy with that kind of show.
Completely agree, I think this is the sad truth. The demographic that wants to see crashes seems to be a depressingly large portion, and the people who want objective rules seem to be at least outnumbered. The delusion that F1 is a high-class sport has been gone for quite a while now.
 
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Oct 20, 2014
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So Verstappen steered twice before braking, Ricciardo steered three times before stabbing the brakes.... Both showed they can late- brake earlier in the race, hell, even Vettel showed it later (with cold tires from behind the safetycar! ehr, brilliant how Bottas handled that, keeping his car out of harms way, as always, as he got bombshelled AGAIN)... shame that corner was coming up a bit earlier or all of them would have made it, now two bit the dust and 1 lost a load of places due to a flat spot.
It's just racing guys, most of you guys over here Simrace, and have tried to late-brake an opponent and screw the pooch... we wait for eachother and race on (if yer in a friendly server).... in real life it's alot more costly and the discussions rage on alot more than the "teammeating" Helmut Marko put together.
I bet the monday-morning feeling at Red-bull was alot worse than most of yours.

Woof ~ Woof
 

Oscar

100RPM
Apr 24, 2011
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The demographic that wants to see crashes seems to be a depressingly large portion, and the people who want objective rules seem to be at least outnumbered. The delusion that F1 is a high-class sport has been gone for quite a while now.
Come on now pal, I've not spoken to a single person who wasn't disgusted by Verstappen. One bad crash and suddenly we're all bronze age plebs baying for bloodsports? I don't think so. I think the truth is more that racing is one massive grey area, almost entirely relying on respect and chivalry between drivers for spectacular moves to be possible. Back to this incident - Verstappen hasn't got an ounce of either quality, as he has repeatedly shown.
 

keto95

250RPM
Jul 16, 2017
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I found THE imo overtaking action of all times; Spa 2000 - Hakkinen vs Schumacher:

from another angle:

Now that's racing!
 

Appie Kuipers

500RPM
Jun 8, 2007
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Oscar, using disgusted is over the Line, this discussion over Max is now out of proportion, and yes I defend him mostly by people like you, making it worse then it is!!:poop:
 

Appie Kuipers

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Jun 8, 2007
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Keto95, now we are in the old day's, would you upload Max his Brasil rain race? No you won't, it will weaken your anti Max hype! :poop:
 

Oscar

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Apr 24, 2011
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Oscar, using disgusted is over the Line, this discussion over Max is now out of proportion, and yes I defend him mostly by people like you, making it worse then it is!!:poop:
Alright Jos :coffee:, let's not get pedantic about my choice of verb here.. Anyway, let's agree to disagree. Watch this video and tell me 5 out of the 7 shown are acceptable racing manoeuvres...
 

Oscar

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Apr 24, 2011
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@keto95 seems I'm in the minority here, but that first block on the Kemmel straight by Schumacher was disguuuusting driving if you ask me!
 

keto95

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Jul 16, 2017
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@keto95 seems I'm in the minority here, but that first block on the Kemmel straight by Schumacher was disguuuusting driving if you ask me!
Yes, it was the same dirty trick like Max on Spa 2016, Schumacher also had these tricks, but it was allowed by both. The overtaking is what I wanted to highlight, but this video was a nice 'look in the kitchen' just the lap before.
 

Appie Kuipers

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Jun 8, 2007
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Dr.Marko: we chose Max for his speed and agressive driving, so we have to except sparks will fly over te place.:thumbsup:
 

Martin Maaskant

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Aug 24, 2008
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I voted both altough Max is more to blame then Daniel. Technically he didn't moved in the braking zone but he moved to much IMO. On the other hand Daniel moved from left to right behind Max and as I see it cought by suprise that his downforce reduced which ended in a lock up on the front.
 

keto95

250RPM
Jul 16, 2017
383
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Keto95, now we are in the old day's, would you upload Max his Brasil rain race? No you won't, it will weaken your anti Max hype! :poop:
You can try to come up with arguments to justify your limited vision as much as you like, the fact remains that Max Verstappen disappoints me so far and he doesn't show the kind of racing I'd like to see. We keep disagreeing, I'm sorry.
 
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