Lower Back Pain

[Goates]

Hey folks

Recently upgraded from desk racing to an 80/20 rig. The transition has been brilliant, having a fixed based has improved immersion massively.

However, I am struggling quite a bit with lower back pain now when using the rig and it tends to persist afterwards as well. I don't tend to struggle with my back much, I have had back pain when changing cars previously but this usually goes away after a while. (For context I have an Alpine A110 with these seats and have no issues on long journeys).

I have tried a few of the tips after reading around, my seat is tilted as far as it can, I also try to sit with my backside right to the back of the chair. I currently have it set up like this, (sorry can't take a picture of myself sat in it) any other tips to avoid backache, or, as per my previous experience with car seats, should I just continue racing and expect my back to get used to the position eventually? I am conscious of not destroying my back but similarly I just want to race! Final attempt to resolve will be to try a different seat but would like to avoid this.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Sorry to hear about your back. Unfortunately I know this type of pain all too well.

What helps me a lot is compensation. X amount of hours in the rig I compensate by cycling for x hours (keeps me fit ).

Sometimes I do see people sitting in their chair with their legs too stretched. Especially if all your pedal movements are off the center on the right side it can cause a bit of discomfort in your lower back. Try placing your pedals a bit more off center to the left instead. This did it for me. I am also on a 80/20 with a Sparco seat.

Also good topic! Hope you find a solution.

 

[herve45]

you have to go up the pedals by 10 cm

 

[blekenbleu]

upgraded

IMO, not an upgrade if it provokes lower back pain. An Aeron office chair is one of few that I can adjust for comfortable extended sessions, and a ratchet cargo strap between pedals and that chair adequately locates it for immersive VR sim racing with a wheel stand. Even for young, strong healthy backs, racing seat fitment is very far from one size fits all.

 

[markie44]

Hey folks

Recently upgraded from desk racing to an 80/20 rig. The transition has been brilliant, having a fixed based has improved immersion massively.

However, I am struggling quite a bit with lower back pain now when using the rig and it tends to persist afterwards as well. I don't tend to struggle with my back much, I have had back pain when changing cars previously but this usually goes away after a while. (For context I have an Alpine A110 with these seats and have no issues on long journeys).

I have tried a few of the tips after reading around, my seat is tilted as far as it can, I also try to sit with my backside right to the back of the chair. I currently have it set up like this, (sorry can't take a picture of myself sat in it) any other tips to avoid backache, or, as per my previous experience with car seats, should I just continue racing and expect my back to get used to the position eventually? I am conscious of not destroying my back but similarly I just want to race! Final attempt to resolve will be to try a different seat but would like to avoid this.

What seat are you currently using?

 

[Medilloni]

Hey folks

Recently upgraded from desk racing to an 80/20 rig. The transition has been brilliant, having a fixed based has improved immersion massively.

However, I am struggling quite a bit with lower back pain now when using the rig and it tends to persist afterwards as well. I don't tend to struggle with my back much, I have had back pain when changing cars previously but this usually goes away after a while. (For context I have an Alpine A110 with these seats and have no issues on long journeys).

I have tried a few of the tips after reading around, my seat is tilted as far as it can, I also try to sit with my backside right to the back of the chair. I currently have it set up like this, (sorry can't take a picture of myself sat in it) any other tips to avoid backache, or, as per my previous experience with car seats, should I just continue racing and expect my back to get used to the position eventually? I am conscious of not destroying my back but similarly I just want to race! Final attempt to resolve will be to try a different seat but would like to avoid this.

Hi Mathew,

Congrats on the rig, I've recently taken the step from a chair too - and it was specifically 'cos of my back that prompted it, so might know how you feel - though of course there could be a gazillion differences with reasons for back pain/problems. The answer to my problem was to go for a GT car position and concentrating on anchoring and bracing if that makes sense ... meaning, I wanted no part of my body to extend in a way that made my back move, hence I sit quite close to the wheel and get best use out of arm strength.

I'd make a start by measuring 'n sketching as accurately as poss the seating position of the Alpine (if it's as comfortable as you say) - bum and heel height, distance from your shoulder to the top of the wheel, and height difference..... you get the picture, then try to get the same dimensions in your rig.

The pic of your rig is an odd angle, though it seems the wheel on your rig looks higher, and the seat back looks more reclined than the Alpine. Imo if the seat is too reclined it's possible to unconsciously roll your back forward (from the lower back upwards), which would cause pain eventually.

If you're going to replace the seat after that, then maybe take a while driving with small towels rolled up or in a 'pad' shape and see where you feel support is needed, especially things you might not notice when not consciously thinking about it - for example (as was my case), when hard braking does your hip move up (which twists the lower back), in which case move the pedals closer - they look very 'laid back' so perhaps angle them further upright.

Apologies for the tldr; lol - good luck with it all - I used info from these links, hope they might help you too:

2.4: Ergonomics - Virtual Racing School (VRS)

Written with the expert advice from driver coach Martti Pietilä. Ergonomics is one of the most overlooked subjects in sim racing, but it can help your performance a lot. While simracing is physically less demanding than real life racing, you must still control the car with your body. Make sure...

virtualracingschool.com

The Correct Driving Position - BoxThisLap.org

Driving position is one of the keys to release your maximum driving performance and it is probably one of the first basic considerations to chose your seat. This article by Ken Koop from PCA throw some light on this often missing aspect. You can read it from its original source clicking here...

boxthislap.org

Drive Like a Pro: Sitting Like a Racing Driver | ŠKODA Motorsport

Proper seating position is key to effective driving. How to find the perfect way to sit in the car, with the help of professional rally drivers?

www.skoda-motorsport.com

 

[Tberg]

You could have just a "bad" back, even if your quite young, that needs professional attention. Otherwise, you're probably in not too good shape. Of cause, you need to sit comfortably, but a week back will always screw you up.
Exercise and stretching the right way regularly, will take away the pain. There's numerous videos on back/lower back relief and support exercises online. Don't forget to exercise the ABS, hamstrings and glutes too, and do stretches for the sciatic.
Jeff at Athlean X has a few cool ones, that work.

 

[stigs2cousin]

From where I´m sitting( fired up the rig to answer )
we´re dealing with several "ergonomical challenges":

the seat looks quite plain in the lumbar support section,

it´s tilted back rather a lot,

unless your 2m10 the wheel points to your chin instead your shoulders.

and your knees seem to be at a large angle.

I tried the approach suggested above and modelled the ergonomics of my DIY profile rig after my car ( GT86)
That gave me lot´s of fatigue and knee pain even though I can drive my car for hours at a time.
The more I "drove" my simrig ( and the better the tech became, now on a DD wheel and loadcell pedals with high operating forces) the more I straightend out my seating position.

My suggestions:

put the seat back and more upright to get your spinal colum only at a slight lean so that the intervertrebral discs
( googled that one ) are in working position and not "twisted" . A good lumbar support will go a long way, a rolled towel can give you the first idea if it will help. You´ll have to experiment there, but generally speaking the seat doesn´t look to well designed in regards of ergonomics.

Putting it more vertical will also relief the pressure to the back of your thighs and make it easiier ( not so fatiguing) to operate the pedals. Should the ridge at the front of the seat push into your thighs try to sit on a towel/pillow.
On a simrig we don´t need antisubmarining properties.

Than position the pedals that you can depress them fully with your heels on the heel rest and and your knees slightly bend.
The ( I guess CSL ??) pedals you have here are designed for desk racing, to get a good reach in a rig you should angle the pedals towards you that you don´t have to overextend your ankles.

After that position your wheel base that the steering axis points roughly to your shoulders and closer than you think so your shoulders don´t get to move at all when steering.
Most people "measure" the distance by puting their wrist on the wheel with a straight arm, I´m half up my forearm for a measure.
The positioning left to right depends on how much left foot braking you want to do and how much pressure the pedals need.
The more brake pressure you ned the straighter your left knee should be.

Generally my seating position is quite close to the Skoda sketch except my wheel is closer.

Happy testing and don´t get discouraged to soon, it´s a process to find the best position or to decide that some equipment doen´t cut it .

MFG Carsten

 

[Brun]

I suffered from this last year. Was really bad for a while, but a lumbar support cushion sorted it out very quickly.

One of these, which fits fine in a regular Sparco Sprint.

 

[Beef36]

I originally raised my sim rig pedals as that seemed to be the trend but it started causing lower back pain.

I now run my pedals lower than my seat, slightly changed the angle of my seat, plus added a good lower back cushion as most racing seats don't seem to provide much lumbar support, and that seems to improve things.

The next thing I'm looking for is more thigh support, as lack of it (or the seat angle I'm now running) doesn't seem to support my thighs well which places more stress on my lower back.

Everyone is different but for me it too tweaking a number of things to improve comfort.

 

[metalnwood]

Having lower back pain, I like the angle of your seat. It helped me a lot.

when you change your seat you have to change everything else to work with it and a couple things look wrong. Firstly your wheel, as pointed out it liiks like it is pointing too high and without a picture of you its hard to tell how you might be holding it and its distance to you. Are you reaching, rolling your shoulders to get to it etc.

With the seat tilted your pedals distance will change based on their height. I would set a height that promotes your lower back falling in to the seat. Sit in your seat, forget about your pedals and ask wife/brother/girlfriend to hold your feet at different heights and see if you start to fill the seat better. Its hard to tell from your photo, I dont think you would go lower but I cant quite tell if higher may be better.

What is certainly off is your pedal faces, they are leaning far to much back. You should be using your legs more and this looks like you will be using your ankles too much.

So I would... Leave your seat, adjust pedals so that the face of pedals face you. Then adjust height of pedals (may be ok now) then adjust distance to pedals. Too close and you wont have good thigh support as your legs bend too much, too far and you end up having your thighs push through the seat and thats only going to lift you out of place, not great for your lower back. I hope that has made some sense. This certainly works for my long term back issues.

I will point out, now you are sore, nothing may feel great any any solution - even the best one for you may not feel great until you recover which could take a few days is your back starts burning after a short time.

 

[Goates]

Thanks everyone for the great responses, just been going through them all. I think the summary is, everyone is different as there is quite a range of advice, haha!

I have ordered a lumbar support from Amazon today to see if that helps. I made some adjustments yestday to the rig in terms of the pedal position based on the advice (I agree with the advice around the pedals needing to be angled more towards me, the issue I find with this is that I loose the support of the heel plate if I angle them too far, waiting patiently on some VRS pedals which should hopefully help resolve this). I also moved my brake pedal further away from my accelerator to straighten my legs as my left leg was definitely turning inwards, I hadn't even thought of this before so thanks. It is tricky to identify what helps and what doesn't though, I think the issue is that my back is already exacerbated currently so going to try and hold off on the temptation to race and take a good few days break to try and let it settle first.

 

[metalnwood]

yes, exactly, you have ideas now figure out what works best for you.

 

[stigs2cousin]

After some research into the CSR pedals it seems there is one viable shorttime solution to get them (more) upright.
You could measure ( well, have measured more likely) the distance between your relaxed foot and the pedal face and than put wedges between pedal face and lever to replace the stock pedal spacer.
This could give a more relaxed angle for your ankles.

This wedges could be cut from wood, plastik or 3d printed whatever is easiier for you.

Another thought:
as I´ve seen no external shifter its possible you don´t need the clutch.

So have a look if you can take of the clutch pedal and move the brake to the left, this would straighten up your left leg considerably.

In my case I like to use the clutch for starts and sometimes drive manual cars with H-pattern shifter.
My clutch and brake pedal are mounted separately and can be moved to the left.

For H-pattern the brake is in the middle and I can reach the gas for the blip, when driving sequential with stick or paddles the brake is to the left for a straight knee.
I then have to twist the knee a little to get to the clutch, but that is bearable because I need it only for the start sequence.

MFG Carsten

 

[Clover11]

I just want to add that back pain can really be caused by a ton of different factors and one person's fix is often another person problem and you need to be careful taking others advice. What one person tells you is prefect seating position is only going to be true for them and it is not universal. This can't be understated. Unfotunely, if your back is beginning to hurt after a period, you likely have a set of muscles that are needing to actively work harder then they are comfortable with to keep you in that position. It does not matter at all if that position should be ergonomic or should work for other people. If it bothers you over time, your current muscle structure does not fit it. You have two choices, you can adjust to whatever position your body naturally wants to be in. This could be thought of as where your muscles are balanced and one set is not needing to strain to maintain. The other option is to try and determine what muscle groups need to be strengthened in order to put your natural muscle balance in line with your seating position. A good physicals trainer may be able to help you there but I'd be careful listening to idiots like me who tell you you just need to do X if your lower back hurts. It's really not a one size fits all thing. I would start by making one change at a time and trying it for an entire night or two. If your shoulders seem to be in the right place for comfort steering, then start with moving your legs up higher to see if that makes thing better or worse. Your going to need to try things to feel what helps you though, you can't just go off what someone else tells you should work.

 

[stigs2cousin]

@Clover11 :

usually I´d concur with the one piece at a time aproach.

In this case the starting point looks quite a lot out of whack so the aproach "start new" and see where it leads seems more fitting to me.
You´re right a bout the muscle training part, but the general rules for ergonomics do apply here.

Since i know a little about ergomics in cars ( and am of the risc group: tall, overwheight, sports slouch) I´d rather advise Mathew to start from a generally accepted seating position and see what he has to change ( additionaly to getting the ass of the couch, guilty myself)

MFG Carsten

 

[Helldriver]

Hi,

i used bucket seats in my first simrigs but without G-Forces it really does not make any sense, expect the cool look of the rig.
Somehow i got wiser and bought me a Recaro Orthopäd Seat.
These Seats are made for People, who drive a lot and have back issues.
The Seat is fully electric and has adjustable air chambers for the lower back. Also ventilation and seat heating. I would never use something else for my racing rig again. I could sit there all day long.

Optimal therapy: sitting correctly - Orthopaed - RECARO Automotive

Aftermarket seat RECARO Orthopaed

www.recaro-automotive.com

 

[stigs2cousin]

Hi,

i used bucket seats in my first simrigs but without G-Forces it really does not make any sense, expect the cool look of the rig.
Somehow i got wiser and bought me a Recaro Orthopäd Seat.
These Seats are made for People, who drive a lot and have back issues.
The Seat is fully electric and has adjustable air chambers for the lower back. Also ventilation and seat heating. I would never use something else for my racing rig again. I could sit there all day long.

Optimal therapy: sitting correctly - Orthopaed - RECARO Automotive

Aftermarket seat RECARO Orthopaed

www.recaro-automotive.com

In my opinion theres alot to say for this kind of seat ( as I´m using a Recaro Sportster CS which has the same benefits of lumbar support, cooling and unnecessary in a sim rig heating ) except one fact and that is:

these things are f....ing expensive
The seat I´m using today was 1700€ in 2006 !!

I´ve got a lot of mileage out of it, street driven it in several cars for more than 470 kkm and on my simrig since 2020
( 75 kkm says AC) so for me it was worth it.

But I´ll go out on a limb here and say that for most people all sim equipment together was less expensive.
Even though I´m quite into simracing I would not have bought this seat new for my simrig.

MFG Carsten

 

[metalnwood]

I wouldnt say it makes completely no sense to have a bucket seat in a sim rig. We all have different simrigs.

I will say that I rarely see pictures that have bucket seats that look like they will be easy on your back and shoulders for a long time. Many people seem to plonk these things up as vertical as they can go.

I didnt always have a bucket seat and I can say that tactile is much better on a rig where I can attach tactile to the shell of a seat. Its not the same on frames coming through a sprung cushioned seat. Also the motion works much better when you have better contact and are more snug in the seat. Last one, I am a heavy on the brakes and always felt the seat compresessing on a car seat. Now I am rock solid and overall the feeling with a bucket seat _under my circumstances_ makes a lot of sense.

Everyone is different and I agree many could be in for a painful experience if they go with a bucket and set it up like many manufacturers have them setup on their rig for promotion.

 

[rand777]

I had some lower back pain with a fixed seat previously so I switched to a Sparco reclining seat and found that I could get a much more comfortable position with it. I also put seat rails under my pedal tray (P1-X and Sprint pedals) which helped me to more easily adjust and get a more ergonomic position. I also added a lumbar cushion to the lower back of the chair. All small but overall feels much better and now I can go for about 2 hours before I start feeling discomfort in my lower back.