Lotus 49 Available for download

[Jay Adgie]

Just had a few runs out in the 49, she's a bit of a handful . There is a new build out with a new track as well.

The Season 3 Build boasts new tracks, enhancements to existing tracks, the long-awaited Lotus 49 and a host of new and improved features for league administrators and teams.

The new tracks include Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, home of the Canadian Grand Prix, and Long Beach, home of the Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach. Circuit Gilles Villeneuve joins Spa-Francorchamps, Interlagos, Silverstone and Suzuka on the list of iRacing’s current F1 tracks, while Long Beach is the first in a line of technical tracks that are driveable but not scheduled for official races. Enhancements to existing tracks include night racing at South Boston and Lanier National Speedway and . . . drum roll . . . iRacing’s first true Figure 8 configuration at Irwindale.

The Lotus 49 is also included in the build and forms the nucleus of the new Grand Prix Legends series.

New and enhanced features include the ability for league administrators to pre-configure race grids (independent of qualifying) and control certain weather parameters (but not rain) in hosted sessions and off-line testing. Also included in the build is a new chief mechanic function enabling a designated teammate to assist with car setup in the garage, as well as a cool feature enabling you to race against your own lap replays (often referred to as ghost racing) in time trial or testing mode.

 

[Jake Cooper]

Wow.... well she handles like junk. Normal iRacing physics I suppose. Tyre model made from chocolate.

 

[Paul McCluskey]

noob

 

[muscimol]

Watch this from 1:30 mark onwards. Jackie exactly describes how a car like Lotus 49 should be treated:

No hard breaking, no harsh lifting off the throttle, smooth lines.

 

[Bakkster]

No hard breaking, no harsh lifting off the throttle, smooth lines.

Sounds about what I found. Gentle on the brakes, especially if it's bumpy or the track crests. Don't trail brake or you'll go right around helped by the short wheelbase.

You can get quite sideways coming out of corners, though. Don't think any of my spins have been under throttle, all under braking and hitting a bump. The old issue where wheelspin tended to point you backwards seems to be basically solved, as does the 2fmsh. Haven't had enough time with it to tell if cold tires are still fastest, but I really don't care thanks to the above two fixes.

 

[Austin Ogonoski]

Wow.... well she handles like junk. Normal iRacing physics I suppose. Tyre model made from chocolate.

I don't care if I get labelled a hater, I agree with this guy.

Yes, it's touchy to drive, but the BAD kind of touchy. If I had to compare it to anything, it's like I'm playing Shift 2 Unleashed. The car just floats everywhere. Even guys like Wyatt Foster are looping the car on the backstretch at Mosport in fifth gear. And even then, there's only a few corners on Mosport where it feels close enough to the real car to be merely acceptable. The rest of the time it's like I'm playing an rFactor mod attempting to emulate GPL physics. Guys spin in the pits, guys spin merging, there is no way this car will be popular past a few weeks.

If these 60's cars really handled this way, everyone driving back then must been either a 24th Century Fighter Pilot using time machines to drive vintage F1 cars for the lolz, OR iRacing's physics are incomprehensibly bad.

Passing people is almost impossible because the car just doesn't go in a straight line, its actually more stable in the turns. Now, okay, iRacing's staff says that's how the real car is in their fancy blog post, but when I watch vintage footage, I don't see cars snaking back & forth like they're uncontrollable death traps in a straight line. It reminds me of Shift 2 how much you have to fight the car for no reason, and there is zero evidence of anyone doing that in 1967.

The drivers in the 1960's were Playboys more than anything, with about a quarter of them showing up to practice a little buzzed or hungover.. If THEY were able to get the cars around places like Monaco or the Nurburgring with only one driver dying all season, how is it that some of the most talented road drivers on iRacing cannot even get the car out of the pits without flipping over the barrier?

And before you call me a noob, here's my only start in this car.
http://i.imgur.com/kU4nBNf.jpg

And yet I go into practice sessions, see guys slide off in turn two ten times in a row, and loudly proclaim

<mod-edit: language removed>

 

[Bakkster]

Ditch the baseline setup. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone with an iRacing account at this point

I have no idea why the baseline is so touchy, but I grabbed a stable set from the forums and got a handle on the car in under an hour. Probably more room in the setup to make it safer without a lot of laptime lost. Differential and front suspension (less weight transfer) seem to be some of the big tricks.

To be honest, I had more trouble getting around a chilly Long Beach in the fog with the Kia I spent last season in than I did with the L49 at Mosport.

 

[Antonio Crinò]

And before you call me a noob, here's my only start in this car.
http://i.imgur.com/kU4nBNf.jpg

OMG! Austin you have to practice the car! I mean Yesterday night with just 10 laps I did 1:21.187!! And I'm the most noob driver in iR.

Seriously, after your LOLz review, for me you've lost all your credibility, seriously man.

 

[Austin Ogonoski]

OMG! Austin you have to practice the car! I mean Yesterday night with just 10 laps I did 1:21.187!! And I'm the most noob driver in iR.

Seriously, after your LOLz review, for me you've lost all your credibility, seriously man.

Why would I be pushing hard in a race scenario when everyone around me is wrecking?

Fastest lap in the practice session prior to that race was a very low 1:20, and my opt is in the 1:19's.

 

[muscimol]

I don't care if I get labelled a hater, I agree with this guy.

I wouldn't call you hater, you're just immature and incapable to put some things into the perspective .

 

[Bob Johnstone]

I was getting board of iracing this car has kept end me up at night it's so much fun

 

[Bob Johnstone]

I was getting board of iracing until this car.im loseing sleep coz of it I just can't stop driving it!

 

[Jake Cooper]

The rest of the time it's like I'm playing an rFactor mod attempting to emulate GPL physics.

If these 60's cars really handled this way, everyone driving back then must been either a 24th Century Fighter Pilot using time machines to drive vintage F1 cars for the lolz, OR iRacing's physics are incomprehensibly bad.

Passing people is almost impossible because the car just doesn't go in a straight line, its actually more stable in the turns. Now, okay, iRacing's staff says that's how the real car is in their fancy blog post, but when I watch vintage footage, I don't see cars snaking back & forth like they're uncontrollable death traps in a straight line. It reminds me of Shift 2 how much you have to fight the car for no reason, and there is zero evidence of anyone doing that in 1967.

What you have said here is the reason why iRacing will never be the #'1 "sim" because the fundamentals [tyres] are just completely backwards.

After driving the 49 alot, it feels better sure, but it's massively let down by the shitty tyre model, and personally, i get frustrated on everyone's behalf, the fact that so much money is thrown at iRacing and this is the best they can muster.

Majority of the iRacing community just think 'hard = real' without actually questioning the mechanics of the physics.

Also Bakkster, the baseline set is most definitely a copy, or even made by Greger Huttu, as it mirrors the setups he produced on GPL. So the baseline-set SHOULD be the one to use.

Once iRacing models tyres that wear based on a physical mass reduction of the tyre rather than just a slight surface temp increase, we're gonna see something that can be called a simulator. At the moment it just feels like a second rate arcade game with a "realism" mode turn on passively.

The fact people defend iRacing so violently suggests to me that the reason people play is isn't because of thephysics. It's more of a psychological/social implication.

On the bright side though, at least in fog conditions the grass behaves like normal wet grass! Although the asphalt conditions don't change at all... nice one iRacing.

I spent 300£ on iRacing in the first few months I tried it, back in 2011 I think it was. It was half decent then, but then I realised games like rF2 were actually already better than it, and they don't cost that much. Then I thought the Skip Barber school don't use iRacing to train, and even F1 teams use an rFactor [gMotor] base engine for their simulators and it all put iRacing into perspective for me. Sure if you want oval racing, it's the best out there no doubt, and the racing CAN be decent there but for road racing iRacing is one that I would most definitely NOT suggest to anybody.

Essentially iRacing is older than rFactor 1 though, I mean, iRacing is just a glorified NR2003 engine right? Which is basically just GPL mk2.

Hate if you want, but don't get angry at others because they have an open mind to the physics of reality.

 

[Bob Johnstone]

I have all the sims you speak of and like them all sometimes it can be hard to get a decent field.and that's what I like about I racing. I did a 20 lap race in the 49 last night and it was a blast. I know the physics are better in rfactor but is not the beginning and end for me

 

[Antonio Crinò]

Also Bakkster, the baseline set is most definitely a copy, or even made by Greger Huttu, as it mirrors the setups he produced on GPL. So the baseline-set SHOULD be the one to use.

I hope all your post isn't based on the same realty that pushed you to write this sentence. I mean seriously man...

btw a lap at Oulton:

 

[Bakkster]

Also Bakkster, the baseline set is most definitely a copy, or even made by Greger Huttu, as it mirrors the setups he produced on GPL. So the baseline-set SHOULD be the one to use.

That would make sense, and was my expectation. Of course, the two questions are:
1) What makes us so confident that the GPL sets were perfectly realistic?
2) Does what works for Greger necessarily work for all of us?

Greger did say the set he used in his comparison video was built with a tendency to oversteer. If that's the baseline, then mystery solved? While such a set might be quite fast, I wouldn't say it's appropriate in all circumstances. I sure don't like to learn cars on oversteering setups, and might not ever race on one I don't feel comfortable with. Even if it costs me half a second per lap it's worth it to stay on the pavement.

tl;dr It might be a fine alien setup, but that shouldn't be how us rookies to the car judge its accuracy.

Once iRacing models tyres that wear based on a physical mass reduction of the tyre rather than just a slight surface temp increase, we're gonna see something that can be called a simulator. At the moment it just feels like a second rate arcade game with a "realism" mode turn on passively.

They do model wear that way, but the mass itself is such a tiny factor of why grip gets lost. Especially with a race tire where the tread depth is measured in mm and the diameter overall being over 18 inches, the mass of the tread rubber is insignificant compared to the rest of the tire.

One of the missing factors is the tire hardening as a result of the heat, especially heat cycles, which v5 is supposed to address. Flat spots, graining, and blistering are other big causes of degradation, but no word if/when those will come to iRacing, but only matter for those overdriving the tires. I haven't heard much data that places much importance on tread depth above the above, except where it relates to temperature itself. I'd be interested in reading any research that states otherwise, though. I love learning about this stuff.

 

[Jake Cooper]

T
They do model wear that way, but the mass itself is such a tiny factor of why grip gets lost. Especially with a race tire where the tread depth is measured in mm and the diameter overall being over 18 inches, the mass of the tread rubber is insignificant compared to the rest of the tire.

One of the missing factors is the tire hardening as a result of the heat, especially heat cycles, which v5 is supposed to address. Flat spots, graining, and blistering are other big causes of degradation, but no word if/when those will come to iRacing, but only matter for those overdriving the tires. I haven't heard much data that places much importance on tread depth above the above, except where it relates to temperature itself. I'd be interested in reading any research that states otherwise, though. I love learning about this stuff.

There isn't any tyre wear in iRacing..... They just have the same model they did in GPL which is > heat = bad and slow.

You think that's how tyres behave? To have the tyres at their best as soon as you exit pit-lane and after 1 lap they're less than optimal?...

Look at F1, their tyres need one lap or more to fully get into the operating range, and their tyres are junk in F1 anyway. Never heard of a track getting 'rubbered in'? That's the tread of the tyres being transfered to the asphalt. You see the marbles on the track? Yea that was once part of the tyre. You lose that due to heat and physical shifting of the face of the tyre. So please. To say the loss of physical mass from a tyre is not a critical factor in grip loss is... well quite frankly against all known logic.

Sure, there is no depth to modern race tyres in terms of tread, but in no way does that mean tread depth isn't lost over the course of a stint and it most certainly DOES affect tyre/grip behaviour through the cycles of the tyre shedding layers of itself.

 

[Bakkster]

There isn't any tyre wear in iRacing..... They just have the same model they did in GPL which is > heat = bad and slow.

You think that's how tyres behave? To have the tyres at their best as soon as you exit pit-lane and after 1 lap they're less than optimal?...

Can we agree on terminology that wear = 'tread rubber being worn down and transferred to the pavement' and 'degradation' = 'loss of laptime as a result of less tire grip'?

There is tire wear in iRacing, but the degradation is off (at least in v4, haven't run enough to know if that has changed with the latest build). You're absolutely correct that race tires should be best at some optimal temperature, usually well above ambient. iRacing still needs to get this working properly, don't think I'm saying this isn't missing in the model.

Look at F1, their tyres need one lap or more to fully get into the operating range, and their tyres are junk in F1 anyway. Never heard of a track getting 'rubbered in'? That's the tread of the tyres being transfered to the asphalt. You see the marbles on the track? Yea that was once part of the tyre. You lose that due to heat and physical shifting of the face of the tyre. So please. To say the loss of physical mass from a tyre is not a critical factor in grip loss is... well quite frankly against all known logic.

Sure, there is no depth to modern race tyres in terms of tread, but in no way does that mean tread depth isn't lost over the course of a stint and it most certainly DOES affect tyre/grip behaviour through the cycles of the tyre shedding layers of itself.

Sorry, let me clarify. Simply measuring remaining tread depth doesn't tell us much about the effect on the tire. Tread depth remaining does have an effect, but it isn't the most important one and we can't simply say "it has 50% of the tread it started with so the grip will be X% less", not in all cases.

Less tread means less hysteresis, which means less heat buildup (pre-Pirelli F1 had drivers sometimes failing to keep enough heat in their tires when they got work down, some club drivers such as on the old legends car tires will shave some of the tread off to make them not blister). Did you drive 100 laps conservatively and wear off 20% of the tread doing so, or did you drive 15 laps sideways and wear the same 20% off? Drive 100 laps in 5 stints (heat cycles) or 20 stints? Are the tires graining or not? All of these conditions mean much more than just how much tread the tire has left, as best I can tell the only real difference is in the heat buildup (maybe in contact patch but pretty minimally) or if the wear is uneven (either giving the tire camber or stuff like flatspotting).

Rubbering in and marbles are good examples of the results of tires wearing, but the effect is a result of the track gaining rubber, not the tires losing them. Semantics, but the effect is present even after you put fresh tires on the car rather than directly related to how much tread is left on the current set of tires. Is this what you meant all along, that rubbering in/marbles is needed?

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Do people who think the L49 is hard to drive, also think that the rf2 60F2 is hard to drive....?

 

[Jake Cooper]

Rubbering in and marbles are good examples of the results of tires wearing, but the effect is a result of the track gaining rubber, not the tires losing them. Semantics, but the effect is present even after you put fresh tires on the car rather than directly related to how much tread is left on the current set of tires. Is this what you meant all along, that rubbering in/marbles is needed?

Marbles off-line and rubber on track is a biproduct of tyres losing some of their physical mass.

A track can't just accumulate layers of rubber from people running the track on foot, the reason marbles and rubber get laid on track is BECAUSE of physical mass of the tyre being transfered to the asphalt.

My 'point' if you can call it that, is that iRacing doesn't simulate ANY kind of tyre wear. If you wear something out - To damage, diminish, erode, or consume by long or hard use, attrition, or exposure. - Then you will lose physical mass and therefore performance. [Wear and degradation are one and the same thing] What you are talking about is thermal degradation which affects the performance of the tyre surface without really affecting the physical mass. 'Simulating' a tyre becoming a bit warm and then pretty much unusable is not simulating wear, in fact it's not even simulating anything. Even Pirelli F1 tyres have a few laps of life before they die, but in iRacing the colder the tyres are the better they perform. Which is backwards. Absolutely backwards, and nobody can defend it in this way that it is currently. iRacing will never get proper tyre physics because the game-engine is a massive limiting factor in what they can achieve.

I looked at tyre temps after running a number of cars, and 180F should be well within operating range, of pretty much any tyre [except maybe a super hard F1 tyre] but in iRacing is behaves like you've been driving for a full 1.5hour race stint and your tyres have been used up but this 180F can be achieved in 1 outlap and 1 flying lap. Which is fine, the temperature accumulation isn't an issue, it's probably spot on, but when they does the tyre lose performance from when it's bone cold?

If iRacing had a respectable tyre model I wouldn't play anything else, but as it is, I don't waste my time on it, I'm a purist and I won't settle for anything less than what is accepted as the closest thing us mere mortals can get to reality and iRacing is most certainly not the closest thing to reality in terms of physics.


David Ignjatovic - In terms of historic F1 on RF2 this feels more realistic than iRacing to me but it seems like iRacing focused too much on reviving GPL with Greger Huttu's help. GPL was fantastic to drive, but was it realistic? For it's day, most definitely, but is it realistic? Is it hell.

Either way to suggest x sim does historic f1 better than y sim is quite silly, as there's almost no anecdotal, or factual information to support it either way but what I will say, is that at least rF2 has a tyre model that feels like your touching the asphalt with rubber, rather than plastic.