Load Cell Based Braking Technique

[Michael Dao]

I have to confess, I have bough high end pedal, I think I own 5 set, and never be able to use them, because in my head pedal have to move, kind of position based brake.

I don't know suddenly, I realize I have to pay attention to the pressure/force of the leg, NOT what amount of travel the brake move forward, then I start to get more consistency.

it seems that pressure brake does barely move, it register the pressure

Any tip?

 

[Tim Meuris]

yup
i have a bit the same feeling
come from a g25 pedal set
to a load cell and have difficulkties adjusting as well
i read that muscle memory (the thing you use with pressure based braking) needs to 'grow'

 

[Pär Öqvist]

You always have to practise to be consistant. Being able to actually feel how much you brake can´t make it harder impossible.

I might add that you don´t need a loadcell for this. It´s the rubbers that is used in most cases that create the progressive harder resistance. Otherwise you would have to design the pedal as a plank to rule out potentiometres. I have tried that with my HE Sim Ultimates and it´s actually quite effective. But the feel is not all that realistic of course.

I operate my T500RS potentiometre based pedals with bushings the exact same way as I operate my HE Sim Ultimate pedals. But yes I am thinking pressure not pedal travel

 

[Gpruitt54]

Do you drive? Your car's brake system works on the principle of pressure rather than distance.

 

[Pär Öqvist]

Do you drive? Your car's brake system works on the principle of pressure rather than distance.

In a real car have you ever used a brake pedal that doesn´t move as you brake?

Your feet feel the springs and rubbers. They don´t feel what you use to measure your pedal efforts with. potentiometres require more movement then loadcells to give readings but that is not a problem if you want a realistic brake feel in itself.

 

[RichardHessels]

Can't compare the brakepedal travel of your normal car to that of a racing car.
A racing car pedal has much less travel and you need to push many times harder.
Gt's & openwheel racing cars work around 120 to 150 kilo's.
I have a 60kg loadcell on my CST pedals, took me some weeks to get fully adjusted.
After that you can modulate your braking much better and faster.
Going from 0% to 80% and back a few times in a corner is a matter of milliseconds.
With a regular brake you need to let your foot go completely.. and push the thing all the way back to 80%. That takes more time..

 

[Pär Öqvist]

Can't compare the brakepedal travel of your normal car to that of a racing car.
A racing car pedal has much less travel and you need to push many times harder.
Gt's & openwheel racing cars work around 120 to 150 kilo's.
I have a 60kg loadcell on my CST pedals, took me some weeks to get fully adjusted.
After that you can modulate your braking much better and faster.
Going from 0% to 80% and back a few times in a corner is a matter of milliseconds.
With a regular brake you need to let your foot go completely.. and push the thing all the way back to 80%. That takes more time..

Has the brake pressure gone up with KERS. GT is usually quite a bit less then F1 and prototypes I believe.

I have a 200 kg loadcell not an athlete I have to just about kill myself to get to 135 kg. Can´t say exactly how much but according to the manual and the readings I got I should been about there. It felt like a major achievement. It´s not done in milliseconds and all precision goes out the window

Stiff brake has it´s pros and cons. I recon the best would perhaps still be bare feet and relatively soft brake and play ballerina with the brakes. Though still rubbers so you get a progressive resistance and can feel the pedals. I have wooden legs and no skill so for me it does help I am sure .

It surely goes faster to unlock brakes when you have to work so hard to maintain pressure and the pedal pushes back. Plus chances you stay to long on to high brake pressure is less. High speed braking into chicanes or hairpins is well suited and immensely fun to litterary stand on the brakes as you do IRL when you want to stop fast even on station wagons. But too stiff brake is not good for trailbraking as you tend to stiffen up and get numb.

Sure had endurance races where I didn´t really felt happy about having to brake yet again but overall it´s fun with it being more physical and it forces you to keep focus

 

[Dynamitry]

I have a 200 kg loadcell not an athlete I have to just about kill myself to get to 135 kg. Can´t say exactly how much but according to the manual and the readings I got I should been about there. It felt like a major achievement. It´s not done in milliseconds and all precision goes out the window

Don't know if true, I was told once that in real-life (open-w / proto / gt) they reach these pressure numbers (like 150kg) only under high speed braking where the gforces are actually helping by making the leg weight more. If someone could confirm that...

 

[Alberto Casado]

Don't know if true, I was told once that in real-life (open-w / proto / gt) they reach these pressure numbers (like 150kg) only under high speed braking where the gforces are actually helping by making the leg weight more. If someone could confirm that...

Yes, we had that discussion somewhere before. G forces help to put extra force in a real car (or a kart) when braking, unlike in a fixed home seat+pedals.

I personally see little point in anything over 50 kg, more than that starts to turn driving into a gym session.

 

[Dynamitry]

Thanks Alberto for confirming.
In the same discussion with that person, he said the same, that these huge pressure numbers in simulator pedals (like 135kg max in HE Pedals) don't make much sense.

I did try HE SimPedals that were set according to feedback of a young F3 driver, the brake pedal was set to feel the same he feels in F3, and it was very soft, maybe the softest setting SimPedals have (almost no shims under the 1st stage spring, and the softest rubber bushings).

 

[Pär Öqvist]

Yes I don´t recon anyone other then a serious heavy weight lifter would want to run 135 kg. There is very few cockpits that can sustain this as well. My Nixim Racecraft with real Cobra race chair is struggling a bit! There is some flex and I can put half a ton on it no problem. It´s a steel cockpit weighting over 90 kg I believe.

I like more brake pressure then 60 at times personally so I would find that a bit limiting. Plus the longetivity factor if I would push that loadcell to the max. This one is rated for 200 kg so I am not really pushing it and it´s just as ridiculously precise as when new. breath on it and it can detect movement lol

 

[Michael Dao]

Those HE pedal, I found stiff but haven't found a 60 or 65 shores to soften the brakes, if anyone know where please let me know.

There is no way I can push more than 30 kg, so much for the 135 kg

 

[Pär Öqvist]

70-75 shores? shores is that durometers?

 

[Michael Dao]

yes in durometers

This is what Neils is using a Fibro on the brake, the white one is 70 shores

https://shop.fibro.de/produkt_shop....te=normalienshop&cls=02&S_KEYWORD=2461&id=679

And the Green one on the ultimate is 80 Shores, but a tiny to stiff for me, so I like a bit softer, that why I'm looking for 60 shores (I make a misquote in the previous post)

 

[Pär Öqvist]

Yeah also thought about trying to find something like that just for fun.

I found this video much info about brake pressure

Here they mention about 100 kg brakepressure for F1 with no electronic aids but also the leverage factor on the brake pedal, G-forces etc. That poor 2-seater F1 passenger lol.

 

[Dynamitry]

And the Green one on the ultimate is 80 Shores, but a tiny to stiff for me, so I like a bit softer, that why I'm looking for 60 shores (I make a misquote in the previous post)

If you find softer 60 shores, let me know.

That poor 2-seater F1 passenger lol.

Lol, poor guy. It also looks like his belts weren't tied enough (and not enough side support), his body was banging all around like sack of potatoes.

 

[Michael Dao]

Yeah also thought about trying to find something like that just for fun.

I found this video much info about brake pressure

Here they mention about 100 kg brakepressure for F1 with no electronic aids but also the leverage factor on the brake pedal, G-forces etc. That poor 2-seater F1 passenger lol.

that awesome stuff, a 160kg brake pressure is helped by a 5 or 6G force...maybe a 160kg brake pressure without G assist is not realistic.

 

[Dynamitry]

Yep, this is what we were talking about....

So as Alberto mentioned, 50kg for sim pedals is probably more than enough.

 

[Michael Dao]

If you find softer 60 shores, let me know.

I went though the whole fiber.de catalog, did not find anythings. Did shoot an email to fibro, waiting to see if they have 60 shores, but I don't hold my breath for it