Lewis Hamilton - One of the Greats?

[Fil140]

@Antony Snook mate if you don't know what youre talking about then don't make yourself look silly, all of the champions have always complained because they expect perfection and that just simply isn't a possibility.
i love schumey dearly, but he was always moaning and blaming his tools, as was ayrton when things didn't go his way, as do we all in the sim world.....why wouldn't you?

And to clear up the cheating thing, there's a good reason. to be a world champion you need to be single minded and selfish, as well as very passionate, and when passion boils over a true champion who is thinking only of his win, will often over react and act passionately.........often resulting in him doing something uncharacteristically dangerous or silly.

 

[wombat999]

The point of tagging a driver as 'Great' has little or no value in the current era.
I followed Formula 1 and Motorsport in general from the late 1950s, at the same time reading avidly about the drivers and events pre-WW1 and 2.
Any real enthusiasm for F1 that remained by 2000 departed when Mika Hakkinen retired.
Currently F1 is not a sport at all, it is a commercial entertainment show and an advertising opportunity for any operation that tips money into the pot.

I noted a comparison between the number of rounds in a previous post: 20 rounds today vs 10 rounds in the 1950s. An ill informed comparison at best!
Drivers like Fangio, Moss, Ascari, von Trips and Hawthorn (to name a few) drove in the Sports Car Championships, Rally's, Touring Cars and the minor Formulae as well as non championship and national series in between their F1 commitments. At a brief calculation that would average out to over 30+/- World Championship events in a single season.
A different world I know, but at least the men were men and the racing was hard.
Even Senna drove Gr.C and DTM in the early 1980s.

I also noted a post underlining the fact that F1 is a 'Team Sport' this Century, which is very true.
Ergo, this negates any claim that Hamilton is a 'Great' F1 driver, he's just another cog in the Mercedes Benz machine.

 

[John-Eric Saxén]

The point of tagging a driver as 'Great' has little or no value in the current era.

So any driver achievement that is done in modern era is not great, because you decided it.

I followed Formula 1 and Motorsport in general from the late 1950s, at the same time reading avidly about the drivers and events pre-WW1 and 2.
Any real enthusiasm for F1 that remained by 2000 departed when Mika Hakkinen retired.
Currently F1 is not a sport at all, it is a commercial entertainment show and an advertising opportunity for any operation that tips money into the pot.

Good for you and I get the nostalgia, but 20 years from now there will be people saying that F1 stopped being real after 2018. Tell me exactly how it was any different in 2001 when Hakkinen retired. F1 started becoming commercial much earlier than 2000. Bernie basically begun transforming F1 into an entertainment business in the late 80's and early 90's. So why do you rate the pre 2000's era higher?

Drivers like Fangio, Moss, Ascari, von Trips and Hawthorn (to name a few) drove in the Sports Car Championships, Rally's, Touring Cars and the minor Formulae as well as non championship and national series in between their F1 commitments. At a brief calculation that would average out to over 30+/- World Championship events in a single season.
A different world I know, but at least the men were men and the racing was hard.
Even Senna drove Gr.C and DTM in the early 1980s.

"Racing was hard". I guess if you measure it by the likelihood of getting killed, racing was harder back in the days. But physically, racing is actually much tougher today than 30-50 years ago. The G forces are much higher and there is no way somebody 50 years old could compete in a modern F1 car, whereas 50+ year old drivers were not uncommon back in the 50's and 60's.

I also noted a post underlining the fact that F1 is a 'Team Sport' this Century, which is very true.
Ergo, this negates any claim that Hamilton is a 'Great' F1 driver, he's just another cog in the Mercedes Benz machine.

And you claim it wasn't a team sport back in the 90's when driver after driver won the championship mainly thanks to Adrian Newey designing a superior chassis for the Williams and McLaren?

 

[wombat999]

"Racing was hard". I guess if you measure it by the likelihood of getting killed, racing was harder back in the days. But physically, racing is actually much tougher today than 30-50 years ago. The G forces are much higher and there is no way somebody 50 years old could compete in a modern F1 car, whereas 50+ year old drivers were not uncommon back in the 50's and 60's.

Obviously you have little or no understanding of earlier Grand Prix cars: No power steering, no power boosted braking, no cool suits, races that ran for 200+ MILES (even up to 500 Miles at times), mechanical clutches operated by foot, hand operated gears, open cockpits and aero screens, drum brakes and solid rear axles, while later the rear engined cars featured driver seats which were fuel tanks.
More drivers died in sports car and lesser formulae events, a number in road car accidents, along with several in light aircraft, as well as 'testing', than were killed in Grands Prix.
As for 'G Forces', of course they're high, and of course today's millennials are tucked up in a safety cocoon that negates the greater part of those forces................then again I really can't be bothered in wasting my time with the biased and uninformed so I'll cease.

 

[LMracer]

"Whining" a small annoyance! Cheating Not Great! particularly if you have the skills that are above the rest.

Point of curiosity which driver are you referring to as cheating?

 

[John-Eric Saxén]

Obviously you have little or no understanding of earlier Grand Prix cars: No power steering, no power boosted braking, no cool suits, races that ran for 200+ MILES (even up to 500 Miles at times), mechanical clutches operated by foot, hand operated gears, open cockpits and aero screens, drum brakes and solid rear axles, while later the rear engined cars featured driver seats which were fuel tanks.
More drivers died in sports car and lesser formulae events, a number in road car accidents, along with several in light aircraft, as well as 'testing', than were killed in Grands Prix.
As for 'G Forces', of course they're high, and of course today's millennials are tucked up in a safety cocoon that negates the greater part of those forces................then again I really can't be bothered in wasting my time with the biased and uninformed so I'll cease.

Yes and my point still stands about drivers aged 50+. Apparently the oldest driver to start and finish a race was 55 years old. There is no way a 55 years old guy would be able to handle a full F1 race with a modern F1 car pulling 5G in corners.

While it's true that probably more things on balance were harder back in the days, some things were also easier. In modern day F1 the driver has to control 50 different buttons and modes on the car while driving at 300+ km/h, which requires tremendous focus and multitasking. It's not as black and white as you think.

 

[eSEA One]

Point of curiosity which driver are you referring to as cheating?

Really do I have to mention the names? And no I am not a fanboy of any particular driver. BTW everyone has had their time at moaning about something or other.

 

[Sasha Jednak]

Hmmm what did Schumacher do for Mercedes.............

What did he do?

As for topic, of course Lewis is one of the greats. Same as Nico Rosberg, Sebastian Vettel, Jenson Button, Kimi Raikkonen, Fernando Alonso, Michael Schumacher, Mika Hakkinen, Jaques Villeneuve, Damon Hill, Alain Prost, Nigel Mansell, Ayrton Senna, Nelson Piquet, Niki Lauda, Keke Rosberg, Alan Jones... (in order based on last title won) Then, you can add to this list drivers that missed title but drove perfectly on track. Really easy question, I don't get it why it has 8 pages of discussion...

 

[Deleted member 503495]

I noted a comparison between the number of rounds in a previous post: 20 rounds today vs 10 rounds in the 1950s. An ill informed comparison at best! Drivers like Fangio, Moss, Ascari, von Trips and Hawthorn (to name a few) drove in the Sports Car Championships, Rally's, Touring Cars and the minor Formulae as well as non championship and national series in between their F1 commitments. At a brief calculation that would average out to over 30+/- World Championship events in a single season.

How can you take away one piece of a larger argument, subtract all meaning, place it into a different realm (of races including other series) and call that post ill informed, when the post is denoting only F1-related events? Re-read or review your text before posting next time.

 

[Antony Snook]

They all cheat and bend the rules. Michale Schumacher even Senna pushed rules. As a F1 driver you have to push to the limit of the rules and even go over them.
Just like a Football player picking up a foul and getting sent off the pitch. Hes just doing what he is payed to do.

 

[Antony Snook]

What did he do?

As for topic, of course Lewis is one of the greats. Same as Nico Rosberg, Sebastian Vettel, Jenson Button, Kimi Raikkonen, Fernando Alonso, Michael Schumacher, Mika Hakkinen, Jaques Villeneuve, Damon Hill, Alain Prost, Nigel Mansell, Ayrton Senna, Nelson Piquet, Niki Lauda, Keke Rosberg, Alan Jones... (in order based on last title won) Then, you can add to this list drivers that missed title but drove perfectly on track. Really easy question, I don't get it why it has 8 pages of discussion...

I love the fact you call Nico Rosberg a great. At my local bar where i watch the races i was the only Roberg fan in his tittle year. I get a lot of trash talk about being his #1 fan.

"Whining" a small annoyance! Cheating Not Great! particularly if you have the skills that are above the rest.

Cheating is part of any sport. You maximise your skill's to push rules to the limits. Sometimes you go over and bend the limit. Michale Schumacher and Ayerton Senna where famous for this. They are still skillfull drivers. Most drivers would back down to keep inside the rules. But a real racer wont do that. The team wont let them do it.

 

[Antony Snook]

Ok, I'm sorry if I've missed anybody else making this point.
F1 is not a solo sport. It is a team sport with seperate awards for participants and teams, so it stands to reason that their has to be one best team, so why do so many people keep on banging this ****ing drum about an equal playing field with identical equipment? F1 is about a FORMULA! the idea is to develop the best car, not always the fastest, and to entice the best driver, not always the fastest over a single lap, to drive for your team.

Boooom! Phil smashed it, hell yeah!! Comment of the dat!?
Catch me out iracing, how bout dat!?

Like i say you want a even playing feild watch Indy Car series. or dum dum car series as i call it. Or the Honda Civic series. It dull due to lack of creative expresion.
We just need to get the big 3 AMG-Mercedes, Scueria-Ferrari, Red Bull-Renault to stop spending so much on development. But i don't know how to regulate that as money will be sent under the table with a salary cap. And teams will use dodgy accounting practices.

 

[Antony Snook]

A lot of people thought he was crazy switching from Mclaren....Hmmm what did Schumacher do for Mercedes.............

I don't think there is much difference in the cars at all. The Key personnel probably went with Lewis to Mercedes. But Michale Schumacher helped establish the team and develop the car. Could Lewis Have done that and build a team from the ground up probably not.