PC1 Let's kill one of the biggest misconception about WMD

[c172fccc]

A misconception so big that SMS and many WMD members are getting wrong.

"Project CARS was tested by 80 000 people"

Yeah, let's kill that one.

1. Where does this miconception come from?

On wmdportal, at the bottom, it is written

.

2. Why is it wrong?

It isn't wrong, it is very true. The problem is that free members and people with multiple account (I'll talk about this) are included in that count.

3. So how do we count how many are paid account than?

The answer is in the face of everyone.

This:

Let's do some math.
A Junior account is 10€, Team Member is 25€, Full Member is 50€, Manager is 1000€ and Senior Manager is 25000€.

88180/10 = 8818
255025/25 = 10201
380315/50 = 7606,3 (it doesn't work for some reasons)
158300/100 = 1583
486805/1000 = 486,805 (I'll explain why it doesn't work)
887030/25000 = 35,4812 (I'll explain why it doesn't work)
For a total of 28 731 members, and that's just the maximum.

4.Why is it the maximum?

What if you wanted to put more than 100€, but 1000€ was too much? It's easy, you just had to buy another account.

What if you wanted to put more than 1000€, but 25 000€ is too much? Managers could have a multiplier. You could be Manage (x1.75), for example.

What if you wanted to put more than 25 000€? Senior Manager could also have a multiplier.

I doubt there was more than 20 000 different people.

5. So that's it, there was approximately 20 000 people testing the game?

Not really. Some of these people never really tried the game for many reasons. Some people didn't have a proper pc to play the game, some people were just waiting for the final game, some people were here only for the money, ect.

And that's not all. Testing the game is nothing if you are not reporting. If you had a crash, you had to go on the forum to post them, nothing was automatic. Same thing for bugs, you had to report them.

I counted some times ago that there was exactly 9697 members with at least 1 post on the forum and most of them probably didn't ever post proper feedback. Also don't forget that people that only reported things 4 years ago are included in this count.


In conclusion, SMS, WMD Members and everyone, stop saying that there was 80 000 testers. Say more than 20 000 testers, and you're still wrong. Say more than 20 000 backers and you might be right.

 

[c172fccc]

What accusations?

That I made this thread as an excuse for bugs.

So the owner can't have his own opinion and needs to do exactly what game companies want? No thanks

What are talking about? Why are you talking about game compagnies? I'm not working for anybody nor am I representing anyone. Did I miss something? Why so much hostility?

 

[Dave Stephenson]

...

Ron?

 

[Hash_V8]

Why didnt you respond on pretend race cars where those comments come from, step back and look at what you are posting, no other sim on this site or web has race sim fans defensively posting tester numbers, its so transparent its unreal, bram gave you a king hit in this thread by showing the biggest perpetrator of this "misconception" is SMS themselves by using that number for marketing, not mr anonymous on a controversial site, something you seemed to of totally side steeped.

I hope more truth seekers come forward and expose SMS marketing lies like you have, maybe start with the bogus tire model that appears to have none of the features in game it claims to have?

 

[ermo]

You call it negative, I call it realistic. If this game was properly tested during the three years of being in development my life as an organizer would be a lot easier. Not to mention the players that encounter the same recurring issues when they want to race on our dedicated server evening after evening.

We have now arrived at patch 2.0 and still the red flag issues aren't solved. Please link us to a recent WMD thread where you guys are pushing for these bugs to be fixed.

One of the things that made life less than ideal for both SMS and WMD members offering feedback, is that it was quite difficult to have your message heard because of the fairly unstructured format of the forums and SMS' relative inexperience with managing it.

As I'm sure you are aware, it is actually quite difficult and time-consuming to give good feedback that result in solid repros which can then be scheduled and actioned. Posting opinions is a lot easier.

And FWIW, 'pushing for issues to be fixed' is ... not how things work. In fact, all it will do is create pushback. And by that I mean the kind of pushback it created in you when Ian tried to push you to change the title in 'that thread'. I honestly think you need to get to know people and earn their trust before they will be persuaded to see things from your perspective and then you'll need to step back and give them time and space make up their own mind about what to do. The concept of free will and all that.

Then at some point (I'm not exactly sure when) it appeared to me that things just grew over SMS' head, combined with the fact that a lot of backers did not understand the concept of "locked in" in terms of feature set. This and the level of pressure on the SMS developers created an atmosphere where I perceived it as difficult to engage with the blue guys because they were so focused on actually getting something reasonably playable shipped due to the lead times involved in delivering the features as designed. And given the scope of the feature set, I can't say I don't understand them.

The above is not intended as an excuse, but simply my observation of what the months from september 2014 - june 2015 felt like. What I saw was a group of developers working extremely hard to get to grips with the feature set and deliver on the design while realising that there were more issues than perhaps previously thought.

You may see things differently and that's fine with me.

 

[ermo]

Be it factually true or not (which is a debate I´m not interested in), I don´t know, and about stuff I don´t know I prefer not to talk about.

However, if this is somehow an "excuse" you throw to explain the quality of the final product, let me just laugh. The game would have turned out better if:

- whatever X number of "feedback givers" was free to speak their mind openly without being assaulted, banned, etc.
- whatever X number of "feedback givers", once free to speak, had been listened by SMS. Everybody in there knew pad default profiles were a joke > no action taken.

The problem wasn´t "there was not enough feedback", the problem was the treatment given to negative feedback and the level of f***s given by SMS about the feedback these guys gathered and were allowed to voice.

My perspective is a little different.

If, say, I walk in and tell you in no uncertain terms that your product stinks and then (not being a game developer) I try to dictate to you how you (the experienced game developer) should design a game, and how you should go about your job in general, I'd likely be asking for trouble. "Mess with the bull and you get the horns" as the saying goes. As I touched upon above, it would be a bit like me telling Bram how to run this forum just because I paid for a Premium Membership. I'm pretty sure Bram wouldn't be particularly impressed by that either?

If, on the other hand, I have the common courtesy to suggest (not demand!) to you how things might be better if X and Y instead of P and Q, because such and such and such, then I'm giving you (the guy responsible for the design and implementation) options instead of constraints.

Most people like options. Not a lot of people like constraints. And SMS set up WMD and did things the way they did because they wanted creative freedom; that is, the freedom to create what they felt would be the best product all things considered (including community feedback). You and I may disagree about the approach to reach that goal, but that doesn't change the fact that Project CARS is "Community Assisted", NOT "Community Owned".

Here's the thing: Project CARS is SMS's baby and they own the code base, the IP it represents and have staked their company future on it, which naturally means that they have the final say regarding the product, not you and not I, no matter how much we backed the project in economical terms.

Not all members will agree with SMS's decisions, but I'm fairly certain that SMS feel that they did their level and honest best to deliver on the design and their promises and are proud to have done so.

As always, you are of course free to disagree.

 

[SwaggerJacker]

ermo, you sound like a paid PR guy/girl. Not that it is a bad thing. Just saying. What you gave us was a very eloquent excuse.

 

[bmanic]

Even if the game was tested by hundreds or a few thousand people the end result with massive bugs is just poor. Posting an excuse thread makes no difference, 20,000 is still a massive group and the largest in sim racing history for sure.

Anybody still doubt me that Bram has a huge agenda against anything SMS/WMD/pCars?

You can literally not post ANYTHING about it without him jumping to conclusions immediately.

 

[bmanic]

So the owner can't have his own opinion and needs to do exactly what game companies want? No thanks

Of course you can.. and we know you actively do. Don't start complaining when people are outing you though.

I don't care why you have such a hard on for being thoroughly negative about anything related to the game. You do have several valid points and critique of course but the way you are almost "stalking" every thread just comes off as almost psychotic.

But whatever.. carry on. It's your website after all.

 

[bmanic]

ermo, you sound like a paid PR guy/girl. Not that it is a bad thing. Just saying. What you gave us was a very eloquent excuse.

And there we go.. another "fringe" comment. Why this kind of poison has to exist here (and on other forums) is just bizarre.

 

[bmanic]

I hope more truth seekers come forward and expose SMS marketing lies like you have, maybe start with the bogus tire model that appears to have none of the features in game it claims to have?

So I guess the whole fringe brigade comes from this forum?

You state a claim.. now the burden of proof is on you. What features doesn't the tire model have that SMS claim?

 

[Dyrgl]

My perspective is a little different.
If, say, I walk in and tell you in no uncertain terms that your product stinks and then (not being a game developer) I try to dictate to you how you (the experienced game developer) should design a game, and how you should go about your job in general, I'd likely be asking for trouble. "Mess with the bull and you get the horns" as the saying goes. As I touched upon above, it would be a bit like me telling Bram how to run this forum just because I paid for a Premium Membership. I'm pretty sure Bram wouldn't be particularly impressed by that either?

Depends.

If he is a smart guy driven by the target of pushing his product forwards and improve it, he would take the criticism, grab the good ideas, and make them happen. He would improve his product.

If he is a shortsighted guy he would get all mad and take it personally. He would not listen even if you gave good points just because "you´re negative". His product would not improve.

But yeah, you have every right to disagree. Not everybody is wise and mature enough to handle (and take advantage of) criticism. If a costumer comes to my business and tells me my meal is ****ing **** because there´s a rat on it, I would be a total imbecile kicking him out of my restaurant. I

 

[bmanic]

That I made this thread as an excuse for bugs.



What are talking about? Why are you talking about game compagnies? I'm not working for anybody nor am I representing anyone. Did I miss something? Why so much hostility?

You didn't miss anything. Welcome to racedepartment.com. This is how it is here. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a sensible discussion here. Anything related to facts, pure information or just a general post about, well, anything is met with utter hostility.

Hope you enjoy the stay.

 

[SwaggerJacker]

And there we go.. another "fringe" comment. Why this kind of poison has to exist here (and on other forums) is just bizarre.

What constitutes my comment being classified as fringe? Please explain, bmanic.

 

[bmanic]

But yeah, you have every right to disagree. Not everybody is wise and mature enough to handle (and take advantage of) criticism. If a costumer comes to my business and tells me my meal is <mod-edit: removed language> because there´s a rat on it, I would be a total imbecile kicking him out of my restaurant. I

But the truth is very much different (not that I'm surprised you can't see it). This is how it goes:

You get a meal with too much salt in it: So you go to the chef and SCREAM: "you f*** idiot! there's a friggin rat in my meal.. my mother got killed from tasting it and now the world is ending because of your stupid <mod-edit: Language> meal!!!". Naturally the chef gets quite upset because of your radical exaggeration.. so instead of offering you a new meal he kicks you out.

Had you been sensible you'd have gone to the chef and told him sternly, possibly even angrily that the meal is ruined due to too much salt. He would then have probably apologized and given you a new meal.

See what I did there? This is basically what went on with the crazy fringe people at WMD (and is still going on in the official forums). Heck I've seen the same behavior from a select few at the iRacing forums.. guess what happens to them there? Yup, they get a time out.

Are you guys truly so full of hatred that you can not even see what you are writing? Lets see some examples of people being kicked/banned/shunned from the WMD forums for VALID and POLITE critique. Heck, skip the polite part.. I've written plenty of way too aggressive critique at WMD and was never kicked. Okay so I was warned a couple of times to tone down my aggression and to write more coherent posts but that was all. Do I blame the developers for my own actions? Hell no.

 

[bmanic]

What constitutes my comment being classified as fringe? Please explain, bmanic.

If you can not see that yourself then you are way beyond help. I'll give you a hint: Ermo is one of the nicest people you can hope to meet on the internet and has given some ridiculously thorough and good critique and feedback at the WMD forums. He is always extremely helpful and spends a lot of time helping people with anything he can.. be it any sim.

Now look at the way you wrote a post to him and ask yourself; what did he write to you / do to you to deserve such a snarky "fringe" post?

 

[SwaggerJacker]

Are you any better? He can take care of himself. Who appointed you Keeper of Ermo? You're quite snarky yourself. And a bit angry it seems. I've always liked the word snarky. My wife uses it in jest. Or at least I think she's kidding. Hmmm, you may be on to something.Thanks for making me smile, Keeper of Ermo.

 

[Dyrgl]

But the truth is very much different (not that I'm surprised you can't see it). This is how it goes:

You get a meal with too much salt in it: So you go to the chef and SCREAM: "you f*** idiot! there's a friggin rat in my meal.. my mother got killed from tasting it and now the world is ending because of your stupid f*** meal!!!". Naturally the chef gets quite upset because of your radical exaggeration.. so instead of offering you a new meal he kicks you out.

Had you been sensible you'd have gone to the chef and told him sternly, possibly even angrily that the meal is ruined due to too much salt. He would then have probably apologized and given you a new meal.

See what I did there?

Yeah, fighting a strawman, while the actual discussion is waiting for you looking at its clock and yawning.

People weren´t banned for going ballistic. They were banned for... anything. Like liking the wrong post. Supporting the wrong view. Anything. You didn´t even need to write a word to get the boot.

 

[SwaggerJacker]

But the truth is very much different (not that I'm surprised you can't see it). This is how it goes:

You get a meal with too much salt in it: So you go to the chef and SCREAM: "you f*** idiot! there's a friggin rat in my meal.. my mother got killed from tasting it and now the world is ending because of your stupid f*** meal!!!". Naturally the chef gets quite upset because of your radical exaggeration.. so instead of offering you a new meal he kicks you out.

Had you been sensible you'd have gone to the chef and told him sternly, possibly even angrily that the meal is ruined due to too much salt. He would then have probably apologized and given you a new meal.

See what I did there? This is basically what went on with the crazy fringe people at WMD (and is still going on in the official forums). Heck I've seen the same behavior from a select few at the iRacing forums.. guess what happens to them there? Yup, they get a time out.

Are you guys truly so full of hatred that you can not even see what you are writing? Lets see some examples of people being kicked/banned/shunned from the WMD forums for VALID and POLITE critique. Heck, skip the polite part.. I've written plenty of way too aggressive critique at WMD and was never kicked. Okay so I was warned a couple of times to tone down my aggression and to write more coherent posts but that was all. Do I blame the developers for my own actions? Hell no.

So, you obviously must be the meddling diner who couldn't mind his own business. Are you going to attack every one, Keeper of the Thread?

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

You do have several valid points and critique of course but the way you are almost "stalking" every thread just comes off as almost psychotic.

Welcome back agenda-man!

If you read all my posts and not just the ones that are made to expose false advertising and bs you see that I have actually been pretty positive on the game itself. Despite the huge bugs that are still present the game is actually quite okay when it comes to driving and excellent when it comes to immersion.

But I will not hold back my opinion on the stuff that has been surrounding the game for the last three years of which many things have been proven not true.

Interesting to see that the moment you run out of valid arguments you fall back to posting insults.

 

[sniper420]

Anybody still doubt me that Bram has a huge agenda against anything SMS/WMD/pCars?

You can literally not post ANYTHING about it without him jumping to conclusions immediately.

It's comments like this one you have made above, repeatedly, on nearly EVERY damned thread is what's confirming everyone's suspicions and beliefs that SMS/WMD can't take any slight hint of criticism.

Where is your evidence that Bram has an "agenda"? Back your slander up with evidence or GTFO. This must be the 20th damned time you have accused him of having an agenda without any kind of proof to back up your claim.

In my opinion, Bram raises fair and valid points, asks reasonable questions, provides facts/screenshot/quotes to backup statements all in a diplomatic tone. I feel he echoes the general consensus regarding PCARS here on RD.

I don't agree with everything he writes, I've hit the disagree button on a few of his posts, but here's the thing that you struggle to understand: that's his opinion and he is entitled to it.

You, on the other hand, make a point to attack the character of a person rather than address the actual issues raised, you change topic when it suits your "agenda" even on other peoples forums/posts/threads.

I wouldn't mind if you did this on PCars forum as I keep away from that cesspool, but I choose instead to get my info from here, (where people don't get banned for disagreeing with Sir Ian Bell and his perfectly created racing simulator) and quite frankly, you hijack every thread / post that highlights this poor excuse of a game and its many, many bugs.

Your schtick is tiresome at best.