PC1 Let's give SMS a little credit here

[Damage Inc]

pCARS is a good sim, with flaws admittedly (which are not hidden and are discussed all over the internet), but is more or less 100% feature complete unlike other recent releases such as AC, R3 and I believe RF2 was not feature complete when released (although stand to be corrected). Xbone flaws are a mystery to all WMD members as we had nothing to do with that version at all. I believe SMS should get some credit for being a small team and releasing a complex game across 3 platforms (unlike the others mentioned) and as I say more or less feature complete.

It's not to everyone's personal tastes but tell me what is?

 

[Kyle Pearson]

At least it can understeer, lol.
watch as shift3 is piloted around the entire track "off track"....

Most race cars do (and most race car drivers complain about understeer in race cars)... I found it interesting that one of my real life racing friends saw an early video of pCARS and his comment was "wow, you can actually see the understeer". Most sims make the cars way too responsive which is fun, but not exactly what happens in real life.

The video you posted, it's hard to say much without seeing:

A. If it's a retail version (as opposed to one of the older stolen builds)
B. What settings he has configured (especially diff settings as that will affect the half on/off track behavior and I still think sims allow too much control in this area)

I will say that going full speed into a corner and just turning the front wheels is going to have any car plowing forward (unless enough speed is scrubbed off). Given the amount of people spinning out and crashing online, I'd say this video isn't 100% representative of what the title is all about.

However, I think it's been made pretty clear that this isn't a title for you. There are plenty of good titles available today so you have good options.

 

[Jake Fangio]

He's trying to turn this into another flamebate thread.Just like the one he was involved in before(,Banned for no reason). He enjoyed that one so much he's at it again.Let's just ignore him.Do not reply to him,pretend he doesn't exist. He just churns out the same party line.

 

[DayGlow]

Most race cars do (and most race car drivers complain about understeer in race cars)... I found it interesting that one of my real life racing friends saw an early video of pCARS and his comment was "wow, you can actually see the understeer". Most sims make the cars way too responsive which is fun, but not exactly what happens in real life.

The video you posted, it's hard to say much without seeing:

A. If it's a retail version (as opposed to one of the older stolen builds)
B. What settings he has configured (especially diff settings as that will affect the half on/off track behavior and I still think sims allow too much control in this area)

I will say that going full speed into a corner and just turning the front wheels is going to have any car plowing forward (unless enough speed is scrubbed off). Given the amount of people spinning out and crashing online, I'd say this video isn't 100% representative of what the title is all about.

However, I think it's been made pretty clear that this isn't a title for you. There are plenty of good titles available today so you have good options.

Or what driving AIDS are turned on. I know when I've dropped a wheel onto the grass in the sim that I've ended up facing the wrong way.

10 to 1 it's a full driving aid video just like the last one he posted with damage off pin balling around a track.

I've never seen anyone waste so much personal time trolling a forum for a game they hate.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

mod-edit: this video has been posted several times already in this and other threads.

F1 car carries on without TYRES. ...2m35secs

 

[David Ignjatovic]

He's trying to turn this into another flamebate thread.Just like the one he was involved in before(,Banned for no reason). He enjoyed that one so much he's at it again.Let's just ignore him.Do not reply to him,pretend he doesn't exist. He just churns out the same party line.

I just want to talk about simulation vs simcade, and as ive said for yrs, i don't much care about the game, so it doesn't matter how many copies it sells or who likes it, that's cool, but don't tell me this game has underlying sim physics, it's as plain as day that it doesn't.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Most of the people who own the big console titles accept their games as games/simcade, so why the resistance here especially given the damning video evidence?

 

[Brandon Wright]

so why the resistance here especially given the damning video evidence?

I'm sure I could cherrypick bugs and glitches from any game released in the last ten years and compile "damning video evidence" that the game is crap. Doesn't mean the game actually is crap. But if one has already made up one's mind that the game is crap, it's easy to find evidence supporting one's pre-determined position, it's called confirmation bias.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I'm sure I could cherrypick bugs and glitches from any game released in the last ten years and compile "damning video evidence" that the game is crap. Doesn't mean the game actually is crap. But if one has already made up one's mind that the game is crap, it's easy to find evidence supporting one's pre-determined position, it's called confirmation bias.

Why keep pretending I'm talking about the state of the game when I'm almost exclusively referring to the simcade physics. .?
the mounting video evidence, my own view over the yrs and the view of many technical minded people confirm it's simcade.

 

[Brandon Wright]

Why keep pretending I'm talking about the state of the game when I'm almost exclusively referring to the simcade physics. .?
the mounting video evidence, my own view over the yrs and the view of many technical minded people confirm it's simcade.

I was referring to cherrypicking evidence to support claims, your method not your message. Why keep pretending like we care what your opinion is? You've made it known, nobody is going to change it and you're not going to change anyone else's opinion no matter how many videos you post. I don't care about someone's opinions about physics, I care about how many smiles a game/sim/whatever puts on my face and so far pCARS has put more smiles on my face than any of the other sims. But that's just my opinion, which only applies to me, and I'm not trying to convince anyone to share my opinion or prove that my opinion is the best/correct one.


Crap, I fed the troll again. I'll show myself out..........

 

[SnappyDEe]

I have to give SMS credit. They focused on innovating a totally new tire model that really taxes the PC resources and still managed to take graphics to the next level (objective opinion). Now, I just wish that they would focus on the most realistic off track (grass, sand and dirt) and crash physics. I just don't get why devs don't spend more time completely replicating the totally unpredictable and varied physics that occur when a car goes off track. Baffling, really.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

They focused on innovating a totally new tire model

Can you explain in your own words what this new tire model exactly does as I haven't noticed any differences to other games I play to be honest.

 

[Kyle Pearson]

Can you explain in your own words what this new tire model exactly does as I haven't noticed any differences to other games I play to be honest.

http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/inside-project-cars-seta-tire-model/

Mainly the differences are how most older tire models have two models in one; a low speed and high speed model. There is a point in which the physics "swtich" between the two. This is the reason why the original GTR had such bad grip at low speed but high grip at higher speeds (iRacing had this initially as well). There have been tricks done to the various models to get around that "switching" point but they are hacks which reveal other limitations. One such is the low speed pendulum swinging back and forth tank slapper spins. What happens in some sims is that once the car starts sliding, it never stops until the car goes into a steady state (i.e. you spin and come to a stop which resets the physics mode into low speed). This is not totally correct. In real life, as tires slide they will scrub off speed and can allow a driver to regain control (without the two foot magic save). The SETA model doesn't have this magical crossover point, which is also one of the reasons people claim pCARS is easier since they have save the car in more situations than other sims (i.e. the scrubbing of speed really does work).

 

[SnappyDEe]

Thank you Kyle.

 

[Colin O Callaghan]

http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/inside-project-cars-seta-tire-model/

Mainly the differences are how most older tire models have two models in one; a low speed and high speed model. There is a point in which the physics "swtich" between the two. This is the reason why the original GTR had such bad grip at low speed but high grip at higher speeds (iRacing had this initially as well). There have been tricks done to the various models to get around that "switching" point but they are hacks which reveal other limitations. One such is the low speed pendulum swinging back and forth tank slapper spins. What happens in some sims is that once the car starts sliding, it never stops until the car goes into a steady state (i.e. you spin and come to a stop which resets the physics mode into low speed). This is not totally correct. In real life, as tires slide they will scrub off speed and can allow a driver to regain control (without the two foot magic save). The SETA model doesn't have this magical crossover point, which is also one of the reasons people claim pCARS is easier since they have save the car in more situations than other sims (i.e. the scrubbing of speed really does work).

So where are the Flatspots, havent seen any yet ingame??

 

[Kyle Pearson]

So where are the Flatspots, havent seen any yet ingame??

They will happen more frequently when the wear of the tires is updated. The wear is currently too conservative on most tires so flatspotting doesn't happen. One of the SMS devs commented he's going through the wear on all the tires.

I will say that you won't feel the flatspot like you would in a real car. The level at which FFB is taken from the tire simulation is at a high level then where the flatspots happen. During development, FFB was at that level and it really made the wheel thump when you did flatspot the tires. I'm not sure why the resolution was changed, but likely for performance reasons.

 

[Arne Dopudja]

I managed to get a hot spot if you can call it that by testing the brakes and fooling around. But yeah, no physical flatspot.

 

[Radu Oros]

I have to give SMS credit. They focused on innovating a totally new tire model that really taxes the PC resources and still managed to take graphics to the next level (objective opinion). Now, I just wish that they would focus on the most realistic off track (grass, sand and dirt) and crash physics. I just don't get why devs don't spend more time completely replicating the totally unpredictable and varied physics that occur when a car goes off track. Baffling, really.

SMS, ISI, Kunos, Reiza, didn't they all make new tire models for their current games?

 

[David Ignjatovic]

SETA tyre model is a marketing term......whenever I drove it it either had too much grip, too little grip and some cars came with bizarre reactions to modulated throttle inputs.

 

[unknwn]

SETA tyre model is a marketing term......whenever I drove it it either had too much grip, too little grip and some cars came with bizarre reactions to modulated throttle inputs.

Excessive sliding at lower speeds and no "slip and grip effect" in most sims can be called bizarre too and pretty much unrealistic.
Of course pcars tire model isn't without issues. It has inaccuracies regarding particular tire characteristics in some cases as SMS consultants and players indicated during development but the model itself most likely has more potential without "rewriting" compared to most(excluding rF2). If SMS continues to work on it in the right direction it might be great.
Also I have no idea what you mean regarding throttle modulation because from my experience pcars might provide the best feeling of gentle throttle steering across the sims(personal opinion).
I believe pCars physics are quite complicated and technically advanced however "calibration" and attention to detail is lacking(can be said about pCars as a whole - quantity over quality). It definitely needs further development and lacks compared to other sim projects of more than a decade old.
Also for the clueless: grass grip is intentionally made to be grippy and resistant as gravel so that the casuals wouldn't wreck themselves and others by bouncing/sliding from one side to another. Around 90% of purchases are expected to be by casuals.

 

[xnorb]

"Sim" and "Built towards casuals" should never go hand in hand...
Use the ranking feature to seperate 1st corner pile-ups and clean races.
I really got no clue why nobody dares using iRacing's system when so many
are constantly crying for for clean races in multiplayer.

Regarding tire physics:
IMO most games/sims do it wrong - if the grip levels were just as icey as in many representations on PC, then we'd see about 50 deaths in racing every year.
But of course, going the other extreme isn't a good idea either.