PC1 Let's give SMS a little credit here

[Damage Inc]

pCARS is a good sim, with flaws admittedly (which are not hidden and are discussed all over the internet), but is more or less 100% feature complete unlike other recent releases such as AC, R3 and I believe RF2 was not feature complete when released (although stand to be corrected). Xbone flaws are a mystery to all WMD members as we had nothing to do with that version at all. I believe SMS should get some credit for being a small team and releasing a complex game across 3 platforms (unlike the others mentioned) and as I say more or less feature complete.

It's not to everyone's personal tastes but tell me what is?

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I played the final build and i don't think it can change from simcade to sim within a few weeks.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Complete BS. Go away troll. Go away.

Theres a pole at this forum champ.....

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

I played the final build and i don't think it can change from simcade to sim within a few weeks.

SMS don't need to change much on the cars, they are fine as they are in most cases. Decent amount of grip, no ice-physics that you don't see in any real racing car.

GTs and any other cars with wings and diffusers have a ton of grip in real life so kudos to SMS for bringing these realistic grip levels to a game and stick with it.

You always speak of simcade as a bad thing but actually if positioned between arcade (80% realism / difficultylevel) and simulation (130% difficultylevel (as in not real)) its actually the best word to describe realistic driving behavior.

I am always interested to hear people's opinions about car handling and realism but sorry to say the one time I have seen you racing the F3 online at RD with Stock Car Extreme on Londrina you were more than 5 - 10 seconds off the pace (which is fine, don't get me wrong) and could barely control your car but if you can't drive a sim on the edge, how are you making your judgement if something is real or not.

We have done extensive testing with FIA GT1 drivers back in the day with iOpener, where we invited drivers over for gaming nights (with pizza ) testing a whole variety of racing games on multiple platforms and all those real drivers have the same remarks about what we tend to call simulation: way too difficult, lack of grip, second slip totally off, lack of downforce etc compared to real life.

I tend to value those unpaid / unbiased opinions from real life drivers over us gamers with no history in real life motorsport.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

They don't need to change anything on the cars, they are fine as they are in most cases. Decent amount of grip, no ice-physics that you don't see in any real racing car.

GTs and any other cars with wings and diffusers have a ton of grip in real life so kudos to SMS for bringing these realistic grip levels to a game and stick with it.

You always speak of simcade as a bad thing but actually if positioned between arcade (80% realism / difficultylevel) and simulation (130% difficultylevel (as in not real)) its actually the best word to describe realistic driving behavior.

I am always interested to hear people's opinions about car handling and realism but sorry to say the one time I have seen you racing the F3 online at RD with Stock Car Extreme on Londrina you were more than 5 - 10 seconds off the pace (which is fine, don't get me wrong) and could barely control your car but if you can't drive a sim on the edge, how are you making your judgement if something is real or not.

We have done extensive testing with FIA GT1 drivers back in the day with iOpener, where we invited drivers over for a gaming nights (with pizza ) testing a whole variety of racing games on multiple platforms and all those real drivers have the same remarks about what we tend to call simulation: way too difficult, lack of grip, second slip totally off, lack of downforce etc compared to real life.

I tend to value those unpaid / unbiased opinions from real life drivers over us gamers with no history in real life motorsport.

I'm never 5-10s off in gsc, but on that occasion my g27 throttle needed cleaning so i had trouble....I'm happy to back this up on a rd server if necessary.

As for the rl drivers views, that's an interesting assessment, but i wonder whether addition practice would've made them reconsider, for example, both iracing and rf2 are harder to drive that old simbin, so does that mean thythey're 40-50% harder than rl?

One of the problems of a digital sim is adjusting to the screen and equipment, but once accustomed, it all seems quite reasonable, plus when i was at my peak, i was even faster than today and had much better car control, so I'm of the view that sims are close, but a few % either isnt criminal.

I was a paid jr member.

 

[Jake Fangio]

SMS don't need to change much on the cars, they are fine as they are in most cases. Decent amount of grip, no ice-physics that you don't see in any real racing car.

GTs and any other cars with wings and diffusers have a ton of grip in real life so kudos to SMS for bringing these realistic grip levels to a game and stick with it.

You always speak of simcade as a bad thing but actually if positioned between arcade (80% realism / difficultylevel) and simulation (130% difficultylevel (as in not real)) its actually the best word to describe realistic driving behavior.

I am always interested to hear people's opinions about car handling and realism but sorry to say the one time I have seen you racing the F3 online at RD with Stock Car Extreme on Londrina you were more than 5 - 10 seconds off the pace (which is fine, don't get me wrong) and could barely control your car but if you can't drive a sim on the edge, how are you making your judgement if something is real or not.

We have done extensive testing with FIA GT1 drivers back in the day with iOpener, where we invited drivers over for a gaming nights (with pizza ) testing a whole variety of racing games on multiple platforms and all those real drivers have the same remarks about what we tend to call simulation: way too difficult, lack of grip, second slip totally off, lack of downforce etc compared to real life.

I tend to value those unpaid / unbiased opinions from real life drivers over us gamers with no history in real life motorsport.

Wow,that's an argument finisher right there.Well done mate I like it

 

[Andy_J]

I am always interested to hear people's opinions about car handling and realism but sorry to say the one time I have seen you racing the F3 online at RD with Stock Car Extreme on Londrina you were more than 5 - 10 seconds off the pace (which is fine, don't get me wrong) and could barely control your car but if you can't drive a sim on the edge, how are you making your judgement if something is real or not.

To be honest I think that is a personal slight on David and not really becomming of you Bram. A bit underhanded but I guess you think he deserves it for his interference on these posts.
If he had a bad day on track you judge him on that?
Would this mean that anyone who isn't super quick or well known in the race sim circle, is not worthy of an opinion on how they feel of a race game?

I agree with you though that David needs to own the sim now before he can pass judgement on it but he is entitled to his opinion and if he still regards it as simcade, but that is his call when he compares it to the others. But to be honest, so what if he does? Others do too (so called alien racers in the clubs). I have heard them say on TS and in the forums here that they find Pcars too easy. I have not agreed with them or said so because I am one of those who struggles with the super sims anyway (remember my requests to allow driver aids ) and I love the fact that I can now push a bit harder in Pcars online races and get a reasonable result.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

(removed)

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Would this mean that anyone who isn't super quick or well known in the race sim circle, is not worthy of an opinion on how they feel of a race game?

They can surely voice their opinion about the games the paid for and play. If I value those opinions is something else of course.

Would actually like to go a step further: if you have never driven a race car yourself how are you going to be able to judge if something is real or not? Unfortunately there are only a select group of people that are privileged to do both.

As long as over-weighted, 50+ year old drivers can race GT3 and GTE cars in various series around the world you can't convince me that racing such a car in real life is as hard as racing some of our simracing games. Some of our members such as Florian Strauss, Daniel Juncadella and Stoffel Vandoorne proof week in week out that with a ton of simracing skills and talent you can be on the top of real life racing series.

We will never get the chance ourselves but I am convinced I will not finish last or even in the back of the pack in a Blancpain Endurace Series race or at Le Mans in a decent car. Interested teams can send me a pm, i am up for the challenge

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

I was a paid jr member.

Then I owe you a big apology and will edit my post

 

[Lorenzo Bonder]

They can surely voice their opinion about the games the paid for and play. If I value those opinions is something else of course.

Would actually like to go a step further: if you have never driven a race car yourself how are you going to be able to judge if something is real or not? Unfortunately there are only a select group of people that are privileged to do both.

As long as over-weighted, 50+ year old drivers can race GT3 and GTE cars in various series around the world you can't convince me that racing such a car in real life is as hard as racing some of our simracing games. Some of our members such as Florian Strauss, Daniel Juncadella and Stoffel Vandoorne proof week in week out that with a ton of simracing skills and talent you can be on the top of real life racing series.

We will never get the chance ourselves but I am convinced I will not finish last or even in the back of the pack in a Blancpain Endurace Series race or at Le Mans in a decent car. Interested teams can send me a pm, i am up for the challenge

OK Bram, you gave me no choice:

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

 

[Andy_J]

(removed)

I hope you didn't fly of the handle Bram. I didn't see what you removed but I take it it was.............umm ...a self removable comment.
But the challenge is on now Bram, we need a Racedepartment track day in hired sports cars (coz it's unlikely anyone will give you a seat in the GT class is it?) in order to prove how fast you are. I'd like to say I could give you a run for your money.

 

[Damage Inc]

I didn't say false marketing, i wrote false advertising. If you want to play the show me the examples game beware that there is four years of content on the web from official sources. This is the catch I fell for (bought two copies because of it, run daily club events and announced a league that is not going to happen because of the ongoing issues.):

Thanks to a partnership with the Automobile Club de l’Ouest, Project CARS will be the first racing game to properly simulate all the aspects that make the Le Mans 24 Hours one of the most challenging racing events in the world, allowing players to run the event in real-time, facing a full grid of 55 opponents on track. (we brought the press release here)

As you know my background was in real-time gaming and PCARS doesn't offer anything real-time other than real-time weather.

Properly simulate ALL the aspects of Le Mans 24 Hours? The most important aspect of this race of races is that you drive one car for 24 hours with a team of three drivers each racing for 8 hours. Now tell me how am I going to simulate the 24H next month racing with two of my RPM teammates, when there is no working driver swap feature?

Before you are defending it again that this wasn't meant to be an online feature with driver swaps, do the 24 Hours offline then with AI? How am I going to race the 24H with a full field of 55 opponents if there isn't even a class selection allowing me to. Or do the real drivers also race the 24H only against prototypes, or a field of BAC Monos and Ford Focus RS cars?

Promised were the BMW 1999 V12 LMR prototype, 2002 Audi R8, 2014 Audi R18 e-tron quattro. Tell me, where can I select these cars?

The 24 Hours of Le Mans was brought as a massive feature for this game but apart from the amazing track and a small amount of the real cars nothing properly simulates the official 24 Hours of Le Mans.

Its false advertising and cheeky marketing at it's best.

Indeed, can't argue with any of that except for one thing, realistic expectations. Personally I'm someone who always takes any advertising and marketing with massive pinches of salt, I'm sorry that the game fails you in that area and others, but that's by the by. The argument I'm having is the fact that other games/forms of entertainment do exactly the same thing. It's more a modern marketing/advertising issue than something that is purely an SMS/WMD/pCARS issue. EVERY film is the best film, EVERY album is the artist best album ever.

More to the point how on earth could anyone expect any sim to 100% replicate Le Mans without any Porsche or Ferrari cars?

The problem here for me was your expectations and how you took marketing and advertising literally which I would never do.

But I concede that from everything you wrote above it's not on for Marketing or advertising to do stuff like that. But I also re-iterate SMS are not alone in doing that sort of thing. So balance please Bram.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

the fact that other games/forms of entertainment do exactly the same thing

If that's a fact I challenge you to do the same. Let's hear some examples of other sim racing games that promise you something that they don't deliver because it's fully absent.

 

[Andy_J]

WMD/SMS did advertise it. And that would make people buy it. And they did. Is it false advertising?
http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/the-24-hours-of-le-mans-join-project-cars/

 

[Damage Inc]

If that's a fact I challenge you to do the same. Let's hear some examples of other sim racing games that promise you something that they don't deliver because it's fully absent.

ooh harsh Bram, you can't say the 24 hr experience is "FULLY ABSENT" can you. There's a lot missing for various reasons but a lot IS there!

SO more accurate would be for me to find other games that promise things but don't quite get everything in?

 

[vee10]

WMD/SMS did advertise it. And that would make people buy it. And they did. Is it false advertising?
http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/the-24-hours-of-le-mans-join-project-cars/

Wow.

 

[Damage Inc]

WMD/SMS did advertise it. And that would make people buy it. And they did. Is it false advertising?
http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/the-24-hours-of-le-mans-join-project-cars/

As I say to Bram, much of the Le Mans expereince is in, much is not. I fully understand someone who bought into the advertising on that issue to have a beef, but I would also question the persons common sense.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

I brought the news as well and that is where it stings: http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/project-cars-24-hours-of-le-mans-partnership-announced.89008/

When there is a press release or an official statement I want to be sure that the content of the news is valid (and this quote came from the link above). If there are any changes afterwards there should be a new update with changed content so we can adjust it accordingly.

The fact that we didn't continue our V-WEC series with rFactor 2 this year was also because of the hope we could do an awesome 24 Hours of Le Mans with Project CARS later this year.

But it's not too late of course as driver swaps, missing content, proper spectating tools, working replays and such can still be patched in with Steam so let's hope this series will ever happen as it will look absolutely stunning on a live stream coverage

 

[Damage Inc]

But surely common sense should prevail reading stuff like that? Much of that statment is actually correct, stuff which isn't is stuff that they could never do without the licenses of Porsche/Ferrari and the WEC??

It doesn't mention driver swaps so why the beef on that? A Lot of those cars are coming to the game in the future (not sure how much I can or cannot say on the issue).

It looks to me like a large proportion of what is promised is actually in the game fluffed up with the usual marketing crap! (which every game/film/album does!)