Laguna Special Motorcycle Controller by IASystems

[Bram Hengeveld]

I think all sim racers that are hooked to four wheel racing at some point considered making a switch to try out a motorbike racing game or simulation. But got turned off by the fact that you can only control it with your keyboard, mouse or Xbox or PS3 controllers. Well that was until today as IASystems is developing the New Laguna Special Motorcycle Controller.

The developer said on the RaceDepartment Sim Racing Hardware forums:

"The Laguna Special is the exact dimensions of a real Suzuki GSXR and uses an original GSXR seat. Riding it can be a real workout just like on a real bike"

[youtube]

The video was taken playing PiBoSo's GP Bikes and for other motorcycle games such as SBKX, GP500, MX Simulator, TDU1 and TDU2 videos and pictures are expected shortly and we will of course post those as here the moment they are released.

What do you think? Will controllers like this finally open up the market for serious motorcycle racing on PC?

View the Post on the Blog

 

[Rupe Wilson]

GP Bikes is maybe the best we have at the moment, Thimoty.
And while ill agree with both sides to the comments posted this is still better than a controller,
whilst some day we might be able to replicate the gyro effect of the wheels to keep a bike upright and then lean the bike with oppersite lock, and body posture. I don't think my budget will allow for a machine like that to sit in my front room..if one can ever be made, and a program that will work with it.
Were all quite happy to have a pc wheel sat there in our cockpit, driving on a virtual track when in reality were in our front rooms or basements, looking at a tv playing a game at the end of the day,
yes this is not fully correct but its a start in the right direction.. and im not going to knock a guy who gets of his butt and spends his hard earned cash to try and achieve something..

 

[RC45]

As above, you counter-steer a bike around a track, that is: to turn left you push on the left bar and pull on the right, not steer left to go left like a car. This happens in tandem with leaning the bike over and this is why all attempts to make bike controllers before have felt wrong and toyish to bike riders.

If you open your eyes and THINK, you will see to go right you push left!!! If you understould the coding in programs you would know that to use pressure you would need to be using loadcells to steer, that would mean while sittins still in a room you feel no natural forces from the earth but want to act as if you have them and would flip the bike on the first curve. I know Ive tried it!!!

Do you ride a real motorcycle in the real world?

In the real world you push left to go left.

No really - that is how it works.

 

[Dave Stephenson]

I agree. Push left go left.

I'm not going to detract one way or the other from this device,. There will be a market for it and it's a long time since anyone tried to market anything similar. There was a tabletop device many years ago but it pretty much sucked, so I'm really interested to see how it goes.

I think the biggest problem is that without a device manufacturer and software dev tie-up on something like this, the systems are unlikely to progress beyond a similar sort of thing as shown in the video. In all the motorcycle titles I've tried there doesn't seem to be a way to separate control inputs for the lean angle of the bike and the steering angle of the bars. I think both would be needed for a truer representation. Even then without some force/friction device to try and sit the bike up/roll it over based on the sim and the inputs a true sim experience is unlikely.

 

[AMA_King]

I already pre-ordered mine!!!!

Like some have said, if a worthwhile controller existed, moto-games would evolve to take advantage of the more sophisticated controllers and the controllers would evolve to cater to more sophisticated riders in the evolving game market.

Remember how much it costs for a stationary "race car" rig:
Logitech G27 = $250 on Amazon
PlaySeat = $300 on Amazon
Total = $550

Have you priced full motion sim rigs?

The CXC Motion-Pro II starts art $45K here: http://www.cxcsimulations.com/motion-pro/configurator/

SimXperience Stage 5 Motion Racing Simulator starts at $17,500 here: http://simxperience.com/Products/CompleteSimulators/Stage5RacingSimulator.aspx

Blue Tiger Motion Simulator is so expensive they offer leasing and do not publicly list purchase prices here: http://www.bluetiger.com/buy.html

If any of you send Allan $17,500 I'm sure he would be very happy to build you an entry level bicycle frame motion moto-bike-controller ~ or ~ send him $45K and he will provide a full motorcycle frame, bodywork & suspension simulator system.

Personally - I can't freaking wait to get my moto-controller!

 

[Rupe Wilson]

I must admit it so tempting, apart from classic cars my other passion is bikes...

 

[Peter van Zanten]

on a bike you steer whit your body and not pushing the wheel ore handel bars

 

[Rupe Wilson]

You really sure on that Peter, yes your body help's in the movement but you initial movement is with your hands even very small movements of your bars
i seem to recall a vid on a guy the stuck the handle bars on a bike fixed to the chassis above the normal position of the bars and nobody could turn the bike or correct the bike with only there body weight.. strange but true i was also surprised at this as i was sure it was me moving my butt across the seat or leaning toward the front to close up the arc that made the bike move when it seems it just amplifies the initial movement.. i also fell of allot of time finding this out

i think this is the guy..http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/nobsbike.htm

 

[AMA_King]

You all seem to be describing counter steering...
-
https://www.google.com/search?q=counter+steering&hl=en&safe=off&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=ujLmUPGXNsrArQGvuYFg&ved=0CEAQsAQ&biw=918&bih=849

 

[doubledragoncc]

I already pre-ordered mine!!!!

Like some have said, if a worthwhile controller existed, moto-games would evolve to take advantage of the more sophisticated controllers and the controllers would evolve to cater to more sophisticated riders in the evolving game market.

Remember how much it costs for a stationary "race car" rig:
Logitech G27 = $250 on Amazon
PlaySeat = $300 on Amazon
Total = $550

Have you priced full motion sim rigs?

The CXC Motion-Pro II starts art $45K here: http://www.cxcsimulations.com/motion-pro/configurator/

SimXperience Stage 5 Motion Racing Simulator starts at $17,500 here: http://simxperience.com/Products/CompleteSimulators/Stage5RacingSimulator.aspx

Blue Tiger Motion Simulator is so expensive they offer leasing and do not publicly list purchase prices here: http://www.bluetiger.com/buy.html

If any of you send Allan $17,500 I'm sure he would be very happy to build you an entry level bicycle frame motion moto-bike-controller ~ or ~ send him $45K and he will provide a full motorcycle frame, bodywork & suspension simulator system.

Personally - I can't freaking wait to get my moto-controller!

Yo Troy, great to hear from you. I tried to contact you on your site but got no reply. Yes you will get one, been a while but i had everything stolen, tools included and has destroyed my life but am back up and fightin. the sit on system here is one I designed and built for use at race meetings for EBAY MOTORS and is with fewer buttons than normal. Although this is a static system it is so much fun to use, It gets you really into the sim and makes it far more enjoyable than the non sit on systems. I have a backer but he needs to see sales before he invests anymore as it has been a long road to get this one right. I am also in contact with Trinity racing concepts who has a full motion, full bodied lotus car system and am working on the design for full motion for a bike. I dont know your new number so you can call me on 954 557 4479 at anytime. It would be great to hear from you. Happy New Year to all by the way.

 

[doubledragoncc]

on a bike you steer whit your body and not pushing the wheel ore handel bars

in a room your not on a bike DOH

 

[doubledragoncc]

You really sure on that Peter, yes your body help's in the movement but you initial movement is with your hands even very small movements of your bars
i seem to recall a vid on a guy the stuck the handle bars on a bike fixed to the chassis above the normal position of the bars and nobody could turn the bike or correct the bike with only there body weight.. strange but true i was also surprised at this as i was sure it was me moving my butt across the seat or leaning toward the front to close up the arc that made the bike move when it seems it just amplifies the initial movement.. i also fell of allot of time finding this out

i think this is the guy..http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/nobsbike.htm

So true and to explain it more, try taking your hands of the bars before a corner and lets see how far you go!!! OUCH

 

[doubledragoncc]

I must admit it so tempting, apart from classic cars my other passion is bikes...

Thanks Rupe

 

[RC45]

You all seem to be describing counter steering...
-
https://www.google.com/search?q=counter+steering&hl=en&safe=off&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=ujLmUPGXNsrArQGvuYFg&ved=0CEAQsAQ&biw=918&bih=849

Because that is how one steers a motorcycle.

Push left to go left.

Period.

Any other explanation is pure hogwash.

 

[doubledragoncc]

I already pre-ordered mine!!!!

Like some have said, if a worthwhile controller existed, moto-games would evolve to take advantage of the more sophisticated controllers and the controllers would evolve to cater to more sophisticated riders in the evolving game market.

Remember how much it costs for a stationary "race car" rig:
Logitech G27 = $250 on Amazon
PlaySeat = $300 on Amazon
Total = $550

Have you priced full motion sim rigs?

The CXC Motion-Pro II starts art $45K here: http://www.cxcsimulations.com/motion-pro/configurator/

SimXperience Stage 5 Motion Racing Simulator starts at $17,500 here: http://simxperience.com/Products/CompleteSimulators/Stage5RacingSimulator.aspx

Blue Tiger Motion Simulator is so expensive they offer leasing and do not publicly list purchase prices here: http://www.bluetiger.com/buy.html

If any of you send Allan $17,500 I'm sure he would be very happy to build you an entry level bicycle frame motion moto-bike-controller ~ or ~ send him $45K and he will provide a full motorcycle frame, bodywork & suspension simulator system.

Personally - I can't freaking wait to get my moto-controller!

Yo Troy, great to hear from you. I tried to contact you on your site but got no reply. Yes you will get one, been a while but i had everything stolen, tools included and has destroyed my life but am back up and fightin. the sit on system here is one I designed and built for use at race meetings for EBAY MOTORS and is with fewer buttons than normal. Although this is a static system it is so much fun to use, It gets you really into the sim and makes it far more enjoyable than the non sit on systems. I have a backer but he needs to see sales before he invests anymore as it has been a long road to get this one right. I am also in contact with Trinity racing concepts who has a full motion, full bodied lotus car system and am working on the design for full motion for a bike. I dont know your new number so you can call me on 954 557 4479 at anytime. It would be great to hear from you. Happy New Year to all by the way.

Troy PLEASE do not mention anything about me building using a bike frame!!! I build only my own frames and this subject has nothing to do with kids bicycles.
You can destroy my efforts by using that word man.

 

[doubledragoncc]

Are you kidding? You don't get a bike around a track by "turning" the handlebars! Where is the "pressure" you apply, to the bars, the seat, pedals and the shifting of weight front/rear? Can you steer with throttle and brake? Still a long way to go I think.

Well Dennis I guess you dont think that much. This system has been tested by pro racers and they give a thumbs up.

 

[Wee Scot]

At the risk of being painted as a pariah after this, just my first comment as a new site member, here's my view:

It's GREAT to see someone finally serious about providing a decent controller for motorcycle racing enthusiast simracers, but this one is fundamentally flawed, in that the steering inputs are exactly opposite to those in real life, not just in one dimension, but in two! Now, I'm no engineer, but I gave a fair amount of casual thought to this a couple of years ago, and worked out what I think would be both a realistic and elegant solution. First, as has already been strongly and effectively argued in comments above, you've got to incorporate counter steering. This prototype does the opposite. But as bad as that is, the problem with this prototype isn't limited to that. The steering also is applied in the vertical plane instead of the horizontal! This gives the illusion of leaning with the bike, but it's all wrong. So here's my suggestion, which I think is brilliant, but will give you without any expectation of compensation:

Countersteering the handlebars needs to be done in the horizontal, not the vertical plane. But if you mount both the handlebars and the seat on a horizontal metal tube that is supported but able to rotate left and right beneath the 'rider', you can then devise a system of gears or pulleys or cables to CONNECT countersteering with rotating the bar so that the rider produces his own lean angle in direct relationship to how far he countersteers! Since most of the rider's body weight will be above the horizontal rotation axis, you might also want to devise some system of counterweight of elastic resistance to the lean, without which, the more the rider leans left or right, the more the force of gravity will encourage continuing around to be dumped on the floor! But I think you'll agree this is an elegant way to apply what actually happens on a racing bike. If you make the resistance to turning the handlebars strong enough, the simrider could even lean off the bike like real riders, using his weight to help him countersteer the bike! The fact that the range of motion for realistic handlebars is actually very small would help make them physically difficult--heavy--to move when attached by gearing to larger movements left and right of the tube (and rider) around the horizontal axis.

Just my thoughts and advice.

 

[doubledragoncc]

At the risk of being painted as a pariah after this, just my first comment as a new site member, here's my view:

It's GREAT to see someone finally serious about providing a decent controller for motorcycle racing enthusiast simracers, but this one is fundamentally flawed, in that the steering inputs are exactly opposite to those in real life, not just in one dimension, but in two! Now, I'm no engineer, but I gave a fair amount of casual thought to this a couple of years ago, and worked out what I think would be both a realistic and elegant solution. First, as has already been strongly and effectively argued in comments above, you've got to incorporate counter steering. This prototype does the opposite. But as bad as that is, the problem with this prototype isn't limited to that. The steering also is applied in the vertical plane instead of the horizontal! This gives the illusion of leaning with the bike, but it's all wrong. So here's my suggestion, which I think is brilliant, but will give you without any expectation of compensation:

Countersteering the handlebars needs to be done in the horizontal, not the vertical plane. But if you mount both the handlebars and the seat on a horizontal metal tube that is supported but able to rotate left and right beneath the 'rider', you can then devise a system of gears or pulleys or cables to CONNECT countersteering with rotating the bar so that the rider produces his own lean angle in direct relationship to how far he countersteers! Since most of the rider's body weight will be above the horizontal rotation axis, you might also want to devise some system of counterweight of elastic resistance to the lean, without which, the more the rider leans left or right, the more the force of gravity will encourage continuing around to be dumped on the floor! But I think you'll agree this is an elegant way to apply what actually happens on a racing bike. If you make the resistance to turning the handlebars strong enough, the simrider could even lean off the bike like real riders, using his weight to help him countersteer the bike! The fact that the range of motion for realistic handlebars is actually very small would help make them physically difficult--heavy--to move when attached by gearing to larger movements left and right of the tube (and rider) around the horizontal axis.

Just my thoughts and advice.

Great input Scot but you think like everyone else and forget how many people can afford that kind of work???? I am getting frustrated as not one of you has ridden the system and its hard to explain a thousand times when nobody bothers to really read the posts, so you will have to wait for the next video where I will try to show you all why this actually works in a game. I didnt build a full motion system as its too expensive and I have no money lol

 

[Wee Scot]

I appreciate you taking my post seriously, and I actually don't think the design I described would be significantly more expensive to build than the one you have. It doesn't require any pneumatic pistons or motors. You're already using most of the components you'd need. Just by bringing your handle bars down to the horizontal plane instead of the vertical, and attaching them through a simple rack and pinion gearing system to rotation left and right of the metal tube on which both handle bars and seat are mounted, you'd have a design that WOULD win over actual sportbike riders. Yes, it would cost a little more to build than the Laguna Special, but it wouldn't take up any more space, and, most important of all, would be true to the physics of actual riding! I understand why you want to market what you've already developed, and to be completely honest, I agree with those who've written that your concept is MUCH better, much more physically immersive, than moving a joystick or turning a car sim steering wheel (like I do now). But if I were going to build a rig that takes up that much space and puts me in a true riding position, I'd want to go with my design.

 

[doubledragoncc]

But you still wont have the feeling my system gives, you all are not looking outside of the box and therefore dont understand it. You all want to complicate a simple solution. I will not be building anything other than my own designs that have been tested by pro riders, but thanks for the input. You also forget I build a table top version to save space, the Laguna is for demos for EBay Motors at race meetings for the MotoGP series.

 

[Wee Scot]

Allan,

I found the "New Laguna Special Motorcycle Controller..." thread and read your December 26 post, and your points in 'On The Road Versus In a Room' and 'Program Coding and Real Movement' are well made and compelling.

Now I see that one of the beauties of your design is that it gives the simrider a broad range of movement for finer sensitivity, finer adjustment of the steering. That's why I've been using a driving wheel instead of a joystick to play SBK 2001 and SBK08 all these years!

I think you simply misspoke when you wrote "you put pressure on the right side of the bars to go left" (you do seem to know that you push the left bar away from you in order to turn left), and the more important point you make--and the one that undermines the utility of the design I offered (and that you seem to have already carefully considered and rejected)--is that modeling real countersteering would give the simrider a far too limited range of motion, no more than the 10cm or 15cm (not millimeters, LOL) in each direction you cite.

Now I can appreciate why you came to your 'Southern Pendulum' approach. I found your explanation of this particularly good. As you wrote to RC45, if you used a stem axis mounting with a reduction gear, you'd be back to steering so sensitive it would be as twitchy and hard to ride as using a gamepad.

So, while I still have the same reservations as RC45 as to the real world teaching value of your controller (if anything, it will "teach" exactly the wrong lessons for real world bike control), I now completely understand and respect how you settled on your design, and its value as a fun motorcycle racing controller. And watching the video again, I found myself wanting one, even if it DOES fly in the face of real motorcycle riding physics.

So please accept my apology for sniping at you without reading that excellent December 26 post of yours.

Now, please answer this: Are the controls true to real life? Do you twist the right grip to open the throttle? Operate the clutch with the left grip lever and the front brake with the right? Shift from the left footpeg and apply the rear brake from the right? Or have you made compromises to simplify the controls for the non-real-rider?

Personally, I would hope to pay no more than $500 for such a set up, but since you won't have Logitech's sales volume to drive down your costs, you'll probably have to charge closer to $1,000. Am I correct? What do you think your tabletop version might cost?