Jimmy's not wrong, but he's not right either

[Shovas]

You may have noticed a flurry of positive videos about AMS2's latest release, Racin' USA. Well, Jimmy Broadbent noticed and put up a short video about it and his opinions on the latest Racin' USA improvements. Jimmy has such a large audience that his opinion will attract by far the most attention of sim racers, outside of a small subset who know what other channels to watch.

Now, he's not exactly wrong, but he's not exactly right, either. He's probably absolutely right about some of the behaviour of cars over kerbs, or a generally bouncy ride, or the feel of skipping over the road surface as opposed to rolling over it, and perhaps other things.

But when Jimmy contrasts the physics, ffb, handling, and driving experience to titles like iRacing and ACC, I have to question whether he's coming at this objectively and whether he's put in enough time with AMS2 (he admits he has put little time into AMS2).

iRacing's nickname, iceRacing, is well-earned, to this day, even though it's on a physical tyre model. How Jimmy talks about being "connected to the road" in iRacing blows my mind. ACC still exhibits awkward lumbering slides and tyres that feel on edge all the time with little threshold to play.

Yes, AMS2 can and must improve in some areas to really nail the experience, but I feel opinions on what's "realistic" in sims is missing the point, and we really should all know this by now...

Because all sims are pretty bad if you compare to real life driving. If we're honest, they're almost nothing alike, we're just interpreting one mode to another. In fact, when it comes down to "realistic" physics, ffb, and handling...

I suggest a term like "intuitive" is better than "accurate", "simulation", "simcade", or "arcade" to describe the way we interpret sim handling.

For me, rF2 with its rubber grip catching and releasing, is the most intuitive I've felt in any sim, followed by AMS2, no surprise because they're both using physical tyre models. ACC follows after which, for having an empirical tyre model, is actually really good, you can feel a bit more in ACC than other empirical tyre model sims. iRacing follows somewhere after and its hit or miss depending on the car.

What do you guys think? Do we even have an objective way of talking about sim handling? Has Jimmy put in enough time on AMS2 to be objective given he's put in hundreds or thousands of hours on iR/ACC?

Here's Jimmy's video and a response from Ermin Hamidovic:

 

[wesmo]

Renato from reiza has commented on this over at Reizas forums https://forum.reizastudios.com/threads/jimmys-latest-ams2-review.18497/page-4

 

[Durge Driven]

I still say AMS Historic can brake ridiculously late and easy to have full control
you can take hands off wheel do that in rF2 you dead

 

[Miguel Batista]

Renato from reiza has commented on this over at Reizas forums https://forum.reizastudios.com/threads/jimmys-latest-ams2-review.18497/page-4

Oooofff, didn't realize Jimmy's opinion is having such a negative impact. I agree with Renato's points though. Jimmy needs to be more careful.

 

[Jordan N.]

The biggest issue AMS2 has is the inconsistency in quality of content in my opinion. Some cars and tracks feel really good, while others don't. I'm okay with a game that doesn't feel 100% accurate, as long as it is consistent and I can have fun.

I spend a lot of time in all the major Sims racing ai. You really can't do this is AMS2. Some car/tracks feel great, some feel tertible. Some car/tracks have good ai, some have terrible ai. It makes it very frustrating to try and do a full race weekend with ai. Then when you add rain, sometimes the ai don't scale well in the wet. For me, all this game is good for at the moment is just lapping around a track by myself since nobody plays online either.

I really want AMS2 to succeed. No other game even comes close to the weather and real time track transitions. Given time, I think they will get there. The final iteration of AMS1 is fantastic, I still play it regularly. It's a small team, it takes time.

 

[miker]

You tubers and sim racing racing software / hardware developers have a symbiotic relationship, you can’t send them early versions of your game for review and then complain if they don’t like. For what it’s worth I thought Jimmy’s (and other peoples) reviews have been largely fair. Jimmy is clear his is an opinion based review..it’s up to us how much stock we place on it.

personally I’m really enjoying the latest update, and in the same camp as empty box in terms of the racin US pack is probably the best experience available in AMS2.

 

[Shovas]

Renato from reiza has commented on this over at Reizas forums https://forum.reizastudios.com/threads/jimmys-latest-ams2-review.18497/page-4

100%. PC2 taught me that.

 

[Cote Dazur]

nvm

 

[Robes]

I really want to enjoy AMS2 but I just can't get on with it at all. Every corner I feel like I understeer on entry and oversteer on exit and it feels like I'm fighting through water all the time. I'm not one for setups so I haven't tried fixing this behaviour, but default setups should be reasonably driveable. The latest update didn't really do much to address it for me.

I hope they nail it though, it's such a great game for VR, I want it to be brilliant.

 

[dreamer al]

I really want to like AMS2. I have been here from early access. Bought all DLc's. Came over from original AMS. BUT, the physics/drivabilty, for me, hasn't reached the heights of the original AMS. Today I drove AMS2 (after the latest hotfix), then drove both ACC and RF2. In comparison, AMS2 has a long way to go. I live in hope, knowing the dedication of the Rizza team.

 

[b)b]

To the sceptics that cannot get along with AMS2, I suggest to try the BMW M8 GTE on the Nordschleife. It is phenomenal and maybe who knows, it will finally click and you will enjoy it.
Speaking of which, the Nords is ideal for testing any car.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

i replied to other thread abous this but i do it again but shorter, just two videos that Broadbent is not right in terms of LMP bouncing and that his save was too easy and thus not realistic.
Here real life footage as LMP car bounces a lot mid corner at 1:38

another video that LMP can slide too and its possible to save from slide in LMP and its nothing impossible and unrealistic what Broadbent did saving that slide

 

[reshaderacer]

Renato from reiza has commented on this over at Reizas forums https://forum.reizastudios.com/threads/jimmys-latest-ams2-review.18497/page-4

so what. the guy is the lead dev or one of the lead devs. He is correct that any one can have an opinion

the trouble is, what happens when someone's 'opinion' is right?

it can be both an opinion and right. It doesn't matter he commented because what do you expect him to say, he wants you to buy it or to buy more of it

unfortunately as much as I like auto 2 its become the case its lagged further and further behind and it already started behind the other sims. its not the match of rf2 and its not the match of race room, its getting combined-less work done on it than all those, and going forward it won't get the work needed.

they threw in everything they could in the last content drops and its not helping the driving model. they could have stood to just work on that. as it is, they are deliberately working around the flubbiness of the edge of grip aspect and filling it with other things. it will never measure up judging by whats happened.

You can almost hear this in Jimmy's voice, I think he understands now, I understand, its a difficult task to bring everything to bear.

The largest problem however is the very small minority player base who vocally shout about it all from the roof tops.

i replied to other thread abous this but i do it again but shorter, just two videos that Broadbent is not right in terms of LMP bouncing and that his save was too easy and thus not realistic.
Here real life footage as LMP car bounces a lot mid corner at 1:38

another video that LMP can slide too and its possible to save from slide in LMP and its nothing impossible and unrealistic what Broadbent did saving that slide

The major problem with the game is not that it lets you or doesn't let you do things - the problem with the game is the input and the way the game relates that to you through the wheel and how it all happens. Its very off and feels unnatural. I have been reading about it from people and seeing it through my own eyes and I will be lending my voice further to it over time - the delusion that the title is aligned with the physics and ffb and all that stuff - those guys who claim this title is amazing are just being kind.

Its 'off', way off in some cases and its not consistent even if it was 'on'. The 150 concurrent user base attests to that. Last month it was 80, and now its max 300. There's no one who will 'attest' to this thing being feeling ON.

ok.

The trouble with that is, the devs etc on their very forums, have asked people to post videos and people to 'shout from the rooftops' about the game etc. AND now look on any video about it - they're all deluded into doing this basically, because its 'fun'. And some guys on their forum dont see a whole lot of him/them now, but they encouraged that fully knowing once they 'busted' their skeptisism wires, they would just cling to that fact, like a cult of thought. Because its a sunk-cost-fallacy reinforcing moment and none of those guys know how cars truly drive except to get video evidence which is like cherry picking at its finest.

But the truth is the title is now a lame duck, its been given 2 years and the new elephant in the room is not that the multiplayer won't ever be there, but also that the core of the simulator is an arcade-game holdover, and that core driving experience won't be going anywhere. In fact the core driving experience has been shown to not hold up to the other titles, so I am not even sure why it went into development in the first place without that very core being turffed out and re-written to be tight, grippy like in race room or assetto corsa.

They even changed the store-page description because they could not live up to what the title originally purported to be.

To the sceptics that cannot get along with AMS2, I suggest to try the BMW M8 GTE on the Nordschleife. It is phenomenal and maybe who knows, it will finally click and you will enjoy it.
Speaking of which, the Nords is ideal for testing any car.

But you've never driven one, you're just saying ' go have fun '. I 'get along with the title, the trouble is people who want others to get along with the title, and what you're really doing is being a 'peddler' of misinformation to have the veneer or give the impression the title is currently worth playing. The gte basically feels like Project cars 2.5.

I am saying not directly about your comment, but in general, it needs a re-write. They have basically no content left to throw at us after this all. Everything is from project cars 2 anyway. Use your leisure time how you see fit, but don't tell others to waste theirs.

 

[b)b]

^

Wow, so much hate hate.

 

[wolftree]

^

Wow, so much hate hate.

The guy got banned from the Reiza forums for stalking people and writing long walls of irrelevant text in every thread. So obviously now he is here to farm easy likes from the ACC fanboys.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

so what. the guy is the lead dev or one of the lead devs. He is correct that any one can have an opinion

the trouble is, what happens when someone's 'opinion' is right?

it can be both an opinion and right. It doesn't matter he commented because what do you expect him to say, he wants you to buy it or to buy more of it

unfortunately as much as I like auto 2 its become the case its lagged further and further behind and it already started behind the other sims. its not the match of rf2 and its not the match of race room, its getting combined-less work done on it than all those, and going forward it won't get the work needed.

they threw in everything they could in the last content drops and its not helping the driving model. they could have stood to just work on that. as it is, they are deliberately working around the flubbiness of the edge of grip aspect and filling it with other things. it will never measure up judging by whats happened.

You can almost hear this in Jimmy's voice, I think he understands now, I understand, its a difficult task to bring everything to bear.

The largest problem however is the very small minority player base who vocally shout about it all from the roof tops.




The major problem with the game is not that it lets you or doesn't let you do things - the problem with the game is the input and the way the game relates that to you through the wheel and how it all happens. Its very off and feels unnatural. I have been reading about it from people and seeing it through my own eyes and I will be lending my voice further to it over time - the delusion that the title is aligned with the physics and ffb and all that stuff - those guys who claim this title is amazing are just being kind.

Its 'off', way off in some cases and its not consistent even if it was 'on'. The 150 concurrent user base attests to that. Last month it was 80, and now its max 300. There's no one who will 'attest' to this thing being feeling ON.

ok.

The trouble with that is, the devs etc on their very forums, have asked people to post videos and people to 'shout from the rooftops' about the game etc. AND now look on any video about it - they're all deluded into doing this basically, because its 'fun'. And some guys on their forum dont see a whole lot of him/them now, but they encouraged that fully knowing once they 'busted' their skeptisism wires, they would just cling to that fact, like a cult of thought. Because its a sunk-cost-fallacy reinforcing moment and none of those guys know how cars truly drive except to get video evidence which is like cherry picking at its finest.

But the truth is the title is now a lame duck, its been given 2 years and the new elephant in the room is not that the multiplayer won't ever be there, but also that the core of the simulator is an arcade-game holdover, and that core driving experience won't be going anywhere. In fact the core driving experience has been shown to not hold up to the other titles, so I am not even sure why it went into development in the first place without that very core being turffed out and re-written to be tight, grippy like in race room or assetto corsa.

They even changed the store-page description because they could not live up to what the title originally purported to be.



But you've never driven one, you're just saying ' go have fun '. I 'get along with the title, the trouble is people who want others to get along with the title, and what you're really doing is being a 'peddler' of misinformation to have the veneer or give the impression the title is currently worth playing. The gte basically feels like Project cars 2.5.

I am saying not directly about your comment, but in general, it needs a re-write. They have basically no content left to throw at us after this all. Everything is from project cars 2 anyway. Use your leisure time how you see fit, but don't tell others to waste theirs.

Now i remember what i have to tell: i got this thought from year or more about sims realism.
People always compare sims overall which is better, but thing is every sim has better cars driving than those same cars in different better overall sims. May i quick explain what i mean.
AC is considered better sim overall than pCARS2, and i agree, it has better feel of car more realistic feeling. but thing is if you compare for example any GT3 car it drives much better in AC than pCARS2. But those games share some cars and try driving AUDI A3 in AC and pCARS2. AUDI A3 is much better in pCARS2. it drives more natural, turns, stick to road, its dynamic feel, ffb is even better, more dynamic like in real car, but try this car in AC its so dull, seems slower, wont stick to road its understeer fest, and driving feeling is like driving shopping cart. thing is those 2 sims have 100+ cars and its not like all AC cars drive better. thing is most race cars drive much better in AC than pCARS2, but more road cars drive better in pCARS2 than AC. but its not always like that. for example for me formula renault 3,5 in pCARS2 is much better driving than lotus exos in AC. KTM X bow is better in AC, nissan gtr is better driving in pCARS2 i even saw video on youtube of guy who own nissan gtr (he had videos how he drives it on track IRL) and he made comparison in pCARS2 and AC and he said pCARS2 better simulates his own car than AC. BMW M1 in AC is trash, like always connected to road then suddently it tries to sling shoot you somewhere, and in pCARS2 its tailhappy too but easier to control slides. i can count out every car which drives better where as long as i mentiom them all xD
But thing is one car is better in that sim, another better in other sim, yo cant have cars which will drive same good in different sims. Yo must choose your car per sim if its good driving there. AC has 100+ cars and not all feel good, same for pCARS2, AMS2 etc. but that AC is better overall over pCARS2 doesnt mean all cars in AC drive better there, there are LOT cars i prefer driving in pCARS2 than in AC.
also thing is they may try to simulate mitsubishi lancer evo ix in pCARS2 and come up it acts as nissan gtr r34 in AC, and in real life car that would act same as those two in sims is subaru impreza xD
you know what i mean?
there is VW GOLF MK 3 in real life, they want to make it in pCARS2 and making golf 3 which acts like real life AUDI A3.
and AC want to make GOLF 3 and they make it act like VW POLO in real life.
so thing is you think yo drive vw golf 3 in sim and you think it will drive like that in real life, but vw golf 3 from sim is more related to real life audi a3 or vw polo xD
So how you tell sim is realistic as you tell it simulates good vw golf 3, but in real life it simulates actually vw polo's behaviour and you dont even know it?
you have 3 sims choice each has 100+ cars and each have 50% cars driving good, you want drive audi a3 but it drives shieet in AC so you drive it in pCARS2, you want drive bmw z4 gt3 but it drives shieet in pCARS2 so you drive it in AC, you want drive formula 3 car but it drives shieet in AC so you drive it in AMS2 etc.
only games that has all cars driving good are those who have single series that is F1 games, all F1 cars drive good there cause they all drive the same xD, or ACC as it only simulate GT3.
it may be hard to make road cars, race cars and open wheelers in one game. my suggestion would be pCARS2 for road cars, AC for race cars and AMS2 for open wheelers.
it shall not be a thing you have your favourite car ferrari gt3 and you drive it whole life in AC then you try drive it in AMS2 and you see how shitty it drives there so you want uninstall game and spread hate for it. i agree gt3 drive better in AC, ACC than pCARS2 and AMS2, but try sprint car or F3 brasil in AMS2 i tell you will like it again and more like F3 in AMS2 than lotus exus in AC

 

[Johnr777]

My head hurts from trying to comprehend all this non-sense...

Sure, all games have their strengths and weaknesses, but only in 2 of them the user can actually open their files and confirm if the data is correct. That would be AC and RF2.

All other titles you have to blindly believe its accurate... and you have to assume the tracks are built on good data.

Comparing mid-turn LMP bumpiness, slides or the simulation level of a game..... to random youtube footage is IMO, non-sense.

 

[boxer]

I agree, in the end it's your experience driving the sim that really counts.

 

[b)b]

My head hurts from trying to comprehend all this non-sense...

Sure, all games have their strengths and weaknesses, but only in 2 of them the user can actually open their files and confirm if the data is correct. That would be AC and RF2.

All other titles you have to blindly believe its accurate... and you have to assume the tracks are built on good data.

Comparing mid-turn LMP bumpiness, slides or the simulation level of a game..... to random youtube footage is IMO, non-sense.

Files of licensed cars are heavily encrypted in rF2.

 

[Johnr777]

Files of licensed cars are heavily encrypted in rF2.

Then I stand corrected, only one game allows for data validation

 

[Gevatter]

The guy got banned from the Reiza forums for stalking people and writing long walls of irrelevant text in every thread. So obviously now he is here to farm easy likes from the ACC fanboys.

Oh that's him? I was wondering why he went full salty all of a sudden. Makes sense.