Jenson Button

[Andrew Ford]

Hi.
Would someone explain how jenson's style is so smooth compare to others or - why people think it is smoother?

Please check this video. I'm not a vettel fan but it seems similar.

also, i read that jenson always favoured a geometric racing line as opposed to late apex...but surely the fastest line around a track is a combination of both of those i.e. some late apexing and some geometric or even early apexing?

 

[Mark Greenall]

I think its a myth, Hamilton outlasted button on tyre wear last season on a couple of occasions. There is always a fastest way around a track and thats the line all drivers will take, 1 exeption to the rule i can think of is Hamilton vs vettel @ Austin

 

[Metalfreaky]

I think I heard that Button is much smoother on the brakes and constantly interacts with the throttel during cornering to balance the car.

 

[Andrew Ford]

Mark Greenall Metalfreaky

I think the differences must be very subtle.
Some driving "experts" such as rob wilson and ...jenson himself said he likes to drive a "U" shape in corners compared to a hamilton "V". I assumed that meant he did shallower turns and spent more time in the "turn" at higher average speed.

there must be some difference as jenson couldn't heat the tyres up enough last season. I'm assuming his braking isn't as hard as hamiltons - which is extreme. but regarding steering inputs, I can't see that there is a lot of difference. WHen i compare hamilton in 2008 with an oversteery car at turkey (youtube) compare to even 2010, i would say he has got smoother but not sure where the difference is now.

 

[Mark Greenall]

Mark Greenall Metalfreaky

I think the differences must be very subtle.
Some driving "experts" such as rob wilson and ...jenson himself said he likes to drive a "U" shape in corners compared to a hamilton "V". I assumed that meant he did shallower turns and spent more time in the "turn" at higher average speed.

there must be some difference as jenson couldn't heat the tyres up enough last season. I'm assuming his braking isn't as hard as hamiltons - which is extreme. but regarding steering inputs, I can't see that there is a lot of difference. WHen i compare hamilton in 2008 with an oversteery car at turkey (youtube) compare to even 2010, i would say he has got smoother but not sure where the difference is now.

I heard on tv last season that Hamilton could heat the tyres faster as he turned faster (compared to button turning gradually) Best way for me to describe is - if a corner needs the wheel to be @ 25 past hamilton would turn the wheel to 25 past in an instant, where jenson would maybe take 2 tenths. Hamiltons way generates more energy into the tyre, Alonso @ austin was a very clear example

On the same track, same car i would easily be 1 second up on this
Its how i used to get on the front row on prime vs the rest of you on option

 

[Hampus Andersson]

there must be some difference as jenson couldn't heat the tyres up enough last season. I'm assuming his braking isn't as hard as hamiltons

That was because of setup issues. He had no problems getting the temp up in the beginning and the end of the season.

And he´s pressing the brake as hard as Hamilton, what makes Hamilton so good is brake feel, not amount of pressure.
Probably brakes later as well, i saw a comment somewhere saying that he was in Interlagos this year and sat at T4 and nobody braked as late as Hamilton there.

You can check his GP2 career also to see someone who has exceptional brake feel.
You also see him locking the inside a tiny bit, a bit of a trademark by now.

 

[Andrew Ford]

I heard on tv last season that Hamilton could heat the tyres faster as he turned faster (compared to button turning gradually) Best way for me to describe is - if a corner needs the wheel to be @ 25 past hamilton would turn the wheel to 25 past in an instant, where jenson would maybe take 2 tenths. Hamiltons way generates more energy into the tyre, Alonso @ austin was a very clear example

On the same track, same car i would easily be 1 second up on this
Its how i used to get on the front row on prime vs the rest of you on option

if he is quicker at turning, that would also mean his turning arc is tighter like the "V" as opposed to Jenson's "U". that's interesting. in 2008 he seemed to need to turn very quick to handle the oversteery car but last year he seemed to turn in slower and more gradually.

 

[Andrew Ford]

That was because of setup issues. He had no problems getting the temp up in the beginning and the end of the season.

And he´s pressing the brake as hard as Hamilton, what makes Hamilton so good is brake feel, not amount of pressure.
Probably brakes later as well, i saw a comment somewhere saying that he was in Interlagos this year and sat at T4 and nobody braked as late as Hamilton there.

You can check his GP2 career also to see someone who has exceptional brake feel.
You also see him locking the inside a tiny bit, a bit of a trademark by now.

Hampus, what confuses me is that i hear this thing about braking late and I can see hamilton is the best in the business -i've seen the gp2 race at turkey.

hamilton and most f1 drivers seem to have some brake right up to apex.
its hard to tell but is he braking in a diagonal line like the / of the V
or is he braking in a straight line and then easing off like at the bottom of a "U" ?

i watched this clip of senna and he seems to turn in at an angle

i always thought that to brake later, you had to turn in later ...so drive longer in a straight line on outside of track and then gradually ease of brakes. however, now i'm thinking that the only way could brake up to apex and maintain momentum is to brake in a diagonal line, curving only at the very end.

does this make sense?lol
i suppose i'm partly asking, to brake later, do you brake more in a straight line (e.g. at a hairpin) and then turn with less brake (more threshold) or are we saying you trail brake at a diagonal up to the apex.

 

[Mark Greenall]

Hampus, what confuses me is that i hear this thing about braking late and I can see hamilton is the best in the business -i've seen the gp2 race at turkey.

hamilton and most f1 drivers seem to have some brake right up to apex.
its hard to tell but is he braking in a diagonal line like the / of the V
or is he braking in a straight line and then easing off like at the bottom of a "U" ?

i watched this clip of senna and he seems to turn in at an angle

i always thought that to brake later, you had to turn in later ...so drive longer in a straight line on outside of track and then gradually ease of brakes. however, now i'm thinking that the only way could brake up to apex and maintain momentum is to brake in a diagonal line, curving only at the very end.

does this make sense?lol
i suppose i'm partly asking, to brake later, do you brake more in a straight line (e.g. at a hairpin) and then turn with less brake (more threshold) or are we saying you trail brake at a diagonal up to the apex.

Seems to work well for me, Some times i think i out braked myself but if i aim in like you suggest i can get a better lap time.

 

[Andrew Ford]

thanks mark. think what is confusing is, from a distance, as cars approach a hairpin, they always seem to go as wide as possible so i assumed the later you turn in the better - like a late apex. i read that senna and hamilton both like late apexing and also that they are famous for their late braking. however, if you are late apexing, you are turning in later and more severely - meaning really that you are braking more in a straight line - then tuning in more severely. so if you use more grip for this kind of severe turn, surely you come off the brakes before the apex and get on the throttle earlier.

so in simple terms, surely late apexing would encourage people to brake and turn as far away from the apex as possible - getting on gas earlier, yet hamilton brakes right up to apex?. any ideas? sorry to be a pain lol

http://www.modernracer.com/tips/properapex2.jpg

so in the diagram, if you late apex, you complete the turning earlier and off brakes earlier.
yet in sennas car, he appears to be early apexing if anything and carrying momentum out wide after the apex

 

[Hampus Andersson]

i always thought that to brake later, you had to turn in later ...

Unless you can stop the car as good as someone braking earlier.

The braking in downforce-cars is very different to GT cars. With GT cars you just apply the same pressure but in F1 you stomp on the pedal and as the downforce wears off you need to release the pressure, it´s that bit that makes the difference.

Trailbraking every driver does. But not in all corners.
No diagonal either, it might look like that but it´s an arch from the turn-in point.
Always brake straight until you start to trailbrake. Unless it´s a weird corner, like the double apex corner in Bahrain.

 

[Karl Fuss]

I always thought late apexing depended on the corner. So, for example, focusing on a late apex for the hairpin(T7) in Abu Dhabi helps you to straighten the car out and get on the throttle earlier. It makes sense to me because the speed you bring into that corner is slow. Maximizing your speed out of that corner onto the straight is more important that maximizing your speed into the corner
But, in contrast, the hairpin (T10) in Montreal is usually taken with the standard apex because the speed coming into the corner is quite high. You want to maximize your speed up to the hairpin and maximize your speed out of it onto the next straight as well. Of course, whether you take that hairpin in a "U" shape or a "V" shape i think depends on the drivers style.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I think for the most part what decides late apex is how long the straight is afterwards.
As it will only be worth it if it´s long enough.

 

[Andrew Ford]

i think you're both right - for me the late apex is used best before a long straight and at abu dhabi i've gained a lot of time by getting the car turned in and accelerating out earlier.
- so ur hitting the apex passed the mid point and under acceleration.

i wonder also then, if you are at full speed down a straighway leading to a hairpin which is followed by a very short straight, would it be beneficial and possible to late apex under braking - i.e. brake and hit the apex passed the mid point under braking?

i guess what i'm really asking is..are there 2 possible late apexes? 1 focussing on acceleration and one focussing on maintaining braking or is this impossible?if so, i would expect that hamilton would be an expert at it.

 

[Andrew Ford]

oh and back to the original post ...
jenson's "U"
I don't see it. I don't even see it at the hairpin in canada. in fact, i would not expect to as I would expect a brake hard, flick back end and throttle out be quicker than spending too much time in the turn.

 

[Andrew Ford]

i actually think hamilton is smoother at abu dhabi's hairpin. i suppose car setups and cars were different at the time. also, lewis drove his finest season for me last year. his driving was awesome - especially in qualifying and out and out pace

 

[Karl Fuss]

i think you're both right - for me the late apex is used best before a long straight and at abu dhabi i've gained a lot of time by getting the car turned in and accelerating out earlier.
- so ur hitting the apex passed the mid point and under acceleration.

i wonder also then, if you are at full speed down a straighway leading to a hairpin which is followed by a very short straight, would it be beneficial and possible to late apex under braking - i.e. brake and hit the apex passed the mid point under braking?

i guess what i'm really asking is..are there 2 possible late apexes? 1 focussing on acceleration and one focussing on maintaining braking or is this impossible?if so, i would expect that hamilton would be an expert at it.

The only one i can think of at the moment is in China. And the hairpin is such a slow corner after such a high speed straight i think trying to late apex there is not the fastest way through. It benefits more to use all the road and take it like a "U"... if you late apex aren't you making that tuning radius smaller? a smaller "U" sort of?

 

[Ivan Mills]

i think you're both right - for me the late apex is used best before a long straight and at abu dhabi i've gained a lot of time by getting the car turned in and accelerating out earlier.

.

u seem very knowledgable on how to best apex most f1 corners

so just out of curiousity:
-the tire physics of which F1 simulator did you use as a reference point in your statement?

 

[Andrew Ford]

The only one i can think of at the moment is in China. And the hairpin is such a slow corner after such a high speed straight i think trying to late apex there is not the fastest way through. It benefits more to use all the road and take it like a "U"... if you late apex aren't you making that tuning radius smaller? a smaller "U" sort of?

I was thinking more of a tight hairpin followed by a short straight. the corner at china at china allows you to carry a lot of speed until it gradually tightens.

 

[Andrew Ford]

u seem very knowledgable on how to best apex most f1 corners

so just out of curiousity:
-the tire physics of which F1 simulator did you use as a reference point in your statement?

well i would say there are far more informed people to be honest. for abu dhabi i used f1 2012 and rfactor (wtcc and fsr cars). Generally speaking, race 07, rfactor 2, iracing for most corners.

whilst tyres are crucial, i don't think they affect the rule that acceleration onto a long straight is better than braking late into it - Prost says this in his Advanced techniques guide and it is mentioned in Driving Faster by the SKip Barber racing school. I'm sure you're more of a pro yourself. Why do you ask the question? Thanks ;-)