Isn't God technically at fault for creating Satan?

Yes.. that's because discussions like these are not worth anyone's time. There's never going to be a conclusive answer anyway.
The point isnt to come to a single answer it's to have Intelligent debate and learn new things. Since I spoke up it's been pretty civil wouldn't you agree? Anyone whose posted on topic has done so respectfully so far and I've already learned 1 or 2 new things.

If your whole world revolves around winning everything, the future isn't going to be a fun place for you my friend. Again, if you have nothing to contribute and can't handle intelligent debate, don't litter the thread about how the rest of us can't. We're getting along just fine without you.

On topic:
I think Red Dwarf got it right & it'll just be a matter of time before a 'missing' page of the bible is 'found'.....

If "missing" pages turned up do you think the church would look at them seriously or lock them away as "gnostic" without sharing it with the people? There's a lot of interesting bibles in the dead sea scrolls omitted and all but forgotten from history that could shed a different light on Christ's teachings, namely the gospel of Mary.
 
The point isnt to come to a single answer it's to have Intelligent debate and learn new things.

That sounds logical, I understand you and agree on this. But what are you trying to learn exactly that would help this discussion?

If your whole world revolves around winning everything, the future isn't going to be a fun place for you my friend. Again, if you have nothing to contribute and can't handle intelligent debate, don't litter the thread about how the rest of us can't. We're getting along just fine without you.

I don't suppose you directed this at me, since there's nothing you've said that could even remotely apply to me.

I would have liked to participate in this discussion, but then I remembered that there's no purpose to it. Whilst everyone is busy explaining his/her viewpoints and trying to convince other people of this and that, they seem to forget that it's an endless phenomenon which won't change a thing. There's no wrong or right in this world and that said, I believe that it doesn't matter whether god is technically at fault for creating satan. But then again my own beliefs and everyone elses are worthless to this world.

For the sake of this thread, I will let you all continue with this discussion so you can happily stay on topic.
 
No it wasn't specifically directed at you more a broad statement for anyone who only judges the success of a debate on whether they won or made the other person change their mind, which is rare.

You don't need a specific objective in learning, everyone can teach you something. I came to the thread to hear other people's thoughts and their take on the different religious dogma's and doctrines. We know talking about this doesn't change anything, if you haven't noticed 80% of the people who have posted are against organized religion in some way but the ideas behind the books are worth talking about even if their message has been twisted by some. Its not always black vs white there's a lot of grey inbetween that can shed light on the darkest black.

If you wanted to contribute just do so, don't waste your time trying to change what you see to be pointless.
 

Neil Degrassi Tyson talks about debate and his personal beliefs. I HIGHLY reccomend everyone take the 4 minutes to watch him speak. He touches on subjects we have been in this thread mainly debating as understanding perspective and not just winning and losing, and his own take on his belief system as being agnostic not atheist.
 
Being Agnostic or Atheist is not a belief system. It is the rejection of a belief system.
Or in Agnostic´s case it´s simply "i don´t know"

And the video really doesn´t have anything to do with what the thread really was about.
That is, the complications of "god" creating "satan".

Saying Atheism is a belief system is like saying not believing in Santa Claus is a belief system.
 
Agnostic is they just havent seen enough evidence to validate the belief to themselves. It's not outright rejection, they consider the possibility. It's about being open minded. The video has to do with what I was trying to say about debate to all those who posted about the futility of it. It's only futile if your goal is to win and change someone's mind, if you gain some understanding on how other people think and view the world then to me that's a successful debate.
 
Agnostic is they just havent seen enough evidence to validate the belief to themselves. It's not outright rejection, they consider the possibility. It's about being open minded. The video has to do with what I was trying to say about debate to all those who posted about the futility of it. It's only futile if your goal is to win and change someone's mind, if you gain some understanding on how other people think and view the world then to me that's a successful debate.
As i said, "Or in Agnostic´s case it´s simply "i don´t know""

It´s not about validation, it´s about the fact that there is nothing to even support the notion of a supreme being whatsoever.

They key difference between Agnostics/Atheists and Religious people is that if evidence shows up that refutes their argument, only the Agnostics and Atheists would change their mind.
The religious person can´t do that because the foundation has already been set regardless of what comes up.
 
As i said, "Or in Agnostic´s case it´s simply "i don´t know""

It´s not about validation, it´s about the fact that there is nothing to even support the notion of a supreme being whatsoever.

Whatsoever is a strong word, breaking research in quantum dynamics has actually found the "error code" of the universe do to speak. If there was 0 evidence than wouldn't every scientist be an atheist? Granted most of them are but not all, why? Neil has a great lecture on that as well, I'm at work but later toniight I'll try to find it and some supporting quantum physics articles.

Atheism has become a belief system of itself, most atheists are like Neil describes, in your face atheists that turn everything into a counter argument for the sake of argument. If evidence of a creator was provided do you really think 100% of atheists would abandon their whole lifestyle and praise the creator with their every breath? I doubt it, in fact I'd go So far as to say many if not most would flat out reject the evidence because it conflicted with their world view.
 
Whatsoever is a strong word, breaking research in quantum dynamics has actually found the "error code" of the universe do to speak.
You mean Dr. James Gates?
He said himself its´t not even a theory yet.


If there was 0 evidence than wouldn't every scientist be an atheist? Granted most of them are but not all, why?
Ask them, You don´t think that if there actually was any form of evidence they would not be atheists?
But if you know any form of evidence for a supreme being, please let me know.

Atheism has become a belief system of itself, most atheists are like Neil describes, in your face atheists that turn everything into a counter argument for the sake of argument.
No Atheism is not a belief system. It´s the very opposite of a belief system.
Doesn´t matter what Atheists do, it doesn´t change the fact that Atheism is not a belief system.

If evidence of a creator was provided do you really think 100% of atheists would abandon their whole lifestyle and praise the creator with their every breath?
Yes definitely. Because it´s not a belief system. It´s not a movement like Religion, it´s not a indoctrinated system designed to control large masses of people.

Everyone is born an atheist, religious people make a choice to believe in something.
Atheists just don´t make that decision, just like they don´t make a decision to believe in Santa Claus being real.

The thing is there´s no proof of any supreme being. In fact there´s a whole lot to support the fact that there doesn´t seem to be one.


I doubt it, in fact I'd go So far as to say many if not most would flat out reject the evidence because it conflicted with their world view.
No that´s the religious way of thinking. This is because the whole worlds existence has already been written down and what´s written down is fact. Anything the refutes the argument is thrown in the bin.
This is why religious people go by belief rather then facts.
If they had gone by facts (or lack of) they would not be religious.
 
You mean Dr. James Gates?
He said himself its´t not even a theory yet.
Dr. Gates was the one who was talking about the error code but there were other articles and videos from others who were finding things in the field of quantum dynamics that was bringing back some debate over intelligent design. I have to dig them up again.

No Atheism is not a belief system. It´s the very opposite of a belief system.
Doesn´t matter what Atheists do, it doesn´t change the fact that Atheism is not a belief system.


Yes definitely. Because it´s not a belief system. It´s not a movement like Religion, it´s not a indoctrinated system designed to control large masses of people.


Everyone is born an atheist, religious people make a choice to believe in something.
Atheists just don´t make that decision, just like they don´t make a decision to believe in Santa Claus being real.
There are many different belief systems and not all of them are theological. They can be ideological or philosophical as well. I believe in do unto others as you would have them do unto you, does that in itself make me a religious person just because i chose to accept one of their ideals? No, I just think all people deserve respect and I would like everyone to treat me with the same respect I give them. That belief shapes how I interact with other people, its part of my belief system.

I meant it in a sense that most (of the atheists i know and have interacted with personally) believe themselves to be superior to any person of faith because they don't believe in any diety. By assuming the title "atheist" they aren't constricted by silly religious ideals and put their faith only in SCIENCE! (which btw at least half or more could not explain the scientific method to me as incredible as that sounds) They have a flat belief that anyone who subscribes to any form of organized religion are inferior to them and their understanding. When they get to that point it is a belief system, "believing in nothing makes me superior."

Are all atheists like that? No but from my personal experience with them most seem to be.

The thing is there´s no proof of any supreme being. In fact there´s a whole lot to support the fact that there doesn´t seem to be one.
And i agree with that statement. There is no proof, that's not the same as saying there's no evidence whatsoever. you can have evidence that doesn't prove anything on its own but in conjunction with more evidence maybe someday it will. I'm not saying it will but it could, things we thought of as fantasy a few years ago are commonplace and under appreciated today.

No that´s the religious way of thinking. This is because the whole worlds existence has already been written down and what´s written down is fact. Anything the refutes the argument is thrown in the bin.
This is why religious people go by belief rather then facts.
If they had gone by facts (or lack of) they would not be religious.

You box everything "religious" with a negative connotation. There's many religious people who use their texts as moral guidelines and not cut and dry fact. You completely exclude all forms of rational thought when you add the catch all title "religious". That's one of the reasons i posted the Neil video. Its not that black and white, people can learn and change their beliefs.

If you said young earth creationists that's a different story, there we're talking about people who take the book as black and white fact and in your example they would throw it in the bin because it contradicts their blind faith. Problem is not all "religious" people are young earth creationists.
 
Dr. Gates was the one who was talking about the error code but there were other articles and videos from others who were finding things in the field of quantum dynamics that was bringing back some debate over intelligent design. I have to dig them up again.
Please do.


There are many different belief systems and not all of them are theological. They can be ideological or philosophical as well. I believe in do unto others as you would have them do unto you, does that in itself make me a religious person just because i chose to accept one of their ideals? No, I just think all people deserve respect and I would like everyone to treat me with the same respect I give them. That belief shapes how I interact with other people, its part of my belief system.
No not neccessarily, but it´s not their ideal. They like to think it´s their ideal.
Like "treat everyone like you want to be treated"
In reality that is filed under common sense.
Now if you believe in Satan and God that would make you religious by definition.

All people do not deserve respect, some people are plain assholes and don´t deserve anything in this world. You should know that.

I meant it in a sense that most (of the atheists i know and have interacted with personally) believe themselves to be superior to any person of faith because they don't believe in any diety. By assuming the title "atheist" they aren't constricted by silly religious ideals and put their faith only in SCIENCE! (which btw at least half or more could not explain the scientific method to me as incredible as that sounds) They have a flat belief that anyone who subscribes to any form of organized religion are inferior to them and their understanding. When they get to that point it is a belief system, "believing in nothing makes me superior."
They probably think you are a lunatic because to them you might as well say you believe in Leprechauns. It´s the same thing to an atheist.
If you told me you believed Giants live on the sun i would react in the same way as you saying Satan and God exists. It´s just thin air for Atheists.


Are all atheists like that? No but from my personal experience with them most seem to be.
I guess it comes down to the level of tolerance.


And i agree with that statement. There is no proof, that's not the same as saying there's no evidence whatsoever. you can have evidence that doesn't prove anything on its own but in conjunction with more evidence maybe someday it will. I'm not saying it will but it could, things we thought of as fantasy a few years ago are commonplace and under appreciated today.
Then if there´s not proof, show me the evidence.
There is none but if you think there is, please go ahead.


You box everything "religious" with a negative connotation. There's many religious people who use their texts as moral guidelines and not cut and dry fact. You completely exclude all forms of rational thought when you add the catch all title "religious". That's one of the reasons i posted the Neil video. Its not that black and white, people can learn and change their beliefs.
Another thing religious people claim is theirs. Morals.
Again, filed under common sense for the atheist.

In terms of the bible and everything around those religions it really is black and white because there´s nothing to support it as there is nothing to support the fact that a Leprechaun is controlling large areas of Mars.

The reason he´s agnostic is because he can´t prove to you there is no god.
He´s really an Agnostic Atheist. Some are Gnostic etc.

If you said young earth creationists that's a different story, there we're talking about people who take the book as black and white fact and in your example they would throw it in the bin because it contradicts their blind faith. Problem is not all "religious" people are young earth creationists.
No it goes for every single religious person. You believe in something written in a book.
The book is therefore the law which you live your life upon and base your ideals.

Anything to disrupt that will not be accepted because you already have the answer, no need for further information.

You take the book literal in some cases. In some cases not. The difference is you choose what to take literally and what to take with a pinch of salt.
 
To answer the OP:
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Without Evil, there can't be Good. And if no Good, then there's no Evil.
 
They probably think you are a lunatic because to them you might as well say you believe in Leprechauns. It´s the same thing to an atheist.
If you told me you believed Giants live on the sun i would react in the same way as you saying Satan and God exists. It´s just thin air for Atheists.

This common argument of atheists is extremely ridiculous. Are there books on leprechauns? Prophets? Saints? Scholars? How can you put unicorns, giants into the same category with Islam or Christianity? This is probably what Miguel says "atheists' sense of superiority". They directly put millions of people into the category of stupids, fools, ignorants etc...


Lee Knight said:
Oh, & as for above & Islam, I think you'll find the Greeks & their gods were around a lot longer before Mohammad ever put pen to paper....

Of course i knew that! :rolleyes: What i meant that the since Adam, the same God gives revelation to the prophets. I did not say Greek myths are rooted on Islam, i say they are probably coming from a one-god religion. Socrates was probably among the people who remember or knew the original religion and denied the Greek gods as you know.
 
This common argument of atheists is extremely ridiculous. Are there books on leprechauns?
Yes there is actually. And you have a whole country behind it as a folklore namely Ireland.
The difference is they know it´s a folklore.

Prophets? Saints? Scholars? How can you put unicorns, giants into the same category with Islam or Christianity?
Prophets, Saints, Scholars. All regular people but has recieved a mythical status.
Much in the same way people freak out when Michael Jackson or Bruce Springsteen cames to town. It´s no different.

So yes, leprechauns, unicorns, trolls, big foot, giants, Zeus, Hares, Poseidon, Jesus, Mohammed, it all goes in the same box because it´s science fiction. At least modern man has established that greek religions are now mythology.

This is probably what Miguel says "atheists' sense of superiority". They directly put millions of people into the category of stupids, fools, ignorants etc...
I wouldn´t use those words but i´d say you are irrational and illogical if anything.
 
So yes, leprechauns, unicorns, trolls, big foot, giants, Zeus, Hares, Poseidon, Jesus, Mohammed, it all goes in the same box because it´s science fiction. At least modern man has established that greek religions are now mythology.

What do you mean by saying all of these are science fiction? Jesus and Mohammed did not live?
 
What do you mean by saying all of these are science fiction? Jesus and Mohammed did not live?
Fictional characters yes.
Some guy might have been called Jesus back in the day but he wasn´t ressurrected and he could not turn water into wine no.

You don´t find it funny that the son of god gets born, then dissappears for 30 straight years, nobody knows anything, then all of a sudden he shows up, and all hell breaks loose.
Like a script for a movie, a character sometimes is only needed in the beginning and the end.
No different to this.
 
You don´t find it funny that the son of god gets born, then dissappears for 30 straight years, nobody knows anything, then all of a sudden he shows up, and all hell breaks loose.
Like a script for a movie, a character sometimes is only needed in the beginning and the end.
No different to this.

I don't believe in "son-of-god" story either as a god having a son destroys all of his almightyness. They are just prophets. I think it is nearly impossible to explain their knowledge without revelation. Mohammed, in the middle of desert, wrote a book and led a revolution which opened the golden age of the Arabian peninsula. And you don't find it funny that an illiterate shepherd suddenly acquired a vast knowledge from nowhere and started a golden age.
 
You don´t find it funny that the son of god gets born, then dissappears for 30 straight years, nobody knows anything, then all of a sudden he shows up, and all hell breaks loose.

Not quite Hampus...
There's quite a few stories or 'books of the bible' which the church at various times through history has dropped from the Bible or just plain refused to recognise as part of the bible which actually cover these 'missing' years as they didn't conform to the church's political agenda...
2 examples would be the book of Mary & the Gospel of Thomas....
No, I don't believe in the Christian God (except for the one on Facebook) or any of the other 'middle-eastern death cults', but I did do enough reading to keep my head strait in a Salvation Army run rehab for 12months as well as learning enough to stand my ground & confound them or any of the devil-dodgers that turn up at my door...

This might be a good start to search for more; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas

I wonder what the god botherers would think if we turned up at their door pushing Atheism or Agnosticism down THEIR throats?
(Skip to 2:40 to miss the rant)

And for those that are curious, I was sent to rehab for driving, not drugs or drink.
For me, driving IS my addiction!
 
Not quite Hampus...
There's quite a few stories or 'books of the bible' which the church at various times through history has dropped from the Bible or just plain refused to recognise as part of the bible which actually cover these 'missing' years as they didn't conform to the church's political agenda...
2 examples would be the book of Mary & the Gospel of Thomas....
Then could you perhaps sum up what Jesus actually did during those 30 years with a couple of sentences?
Seems to be a lot of sayings but no doings.

The Gospel of Thomas also lacks any mention of Jesus' birth, baptism, miracles, travels, death, and resurrection.
 

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