Is there any reason to not get an OSW right now?

[Daniel Watkin]

Hey all,

Bit of a dilemma, my g27 is starting to make some strange noises. I want to replace it with a DD wheel, and the plan was always to get an OSW. However I now know that Fanatec are in the process of creating a DD wheel, with a planned release date sometime during the summer.

Now, when reading up on the Fanatec announcements pages, they say that off the shelf motors, such as the Mige motors, are not suitable for direct drive applications, and Fanatecs offering will "successfully eliminate all torque ripple". Is this true, or is this just marketing jargon aimed at putting users off other brands?

If these really are real issues with the current DD range on offer, I may wait to see how much the Fanatec base costs , but if not I may upgrade sooner.

Thanks
Dan

 

[Hiro Abe]

I don't understand the automatic dismissal of Fanatec. Yes, I have read how a number of people have had issues with this or that product of theirs. The thing is, what you typically don't see in forums such as these, is how many people haven't had issues and are perfectly happy with their product line. Am I a Fanatec fanboy? Yup! Because everything I've owned from them I haven't had a lick of problems with. And because I'm fully ensconced in their ecosystem, you better believe I'm keeping a watchful eye out for their DD wheel. I'm also a realist. This will be a 1st gen unit and I'm not doing any kind of pre-order till I get a sense of how it plays out. But if I can avoid buying adapters or replacing my wheels AND have a DD wheel? Then I'm all for it.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

Why did you disagree with me @MegamanAT ?

You know I’ve sold most of my Fanatec gear because of certain build quality issues I wasn’t happy with so I’m not defending them, just being open minded.

 

[MegamanAT]

Why did you disagree with me @MegamanAT ?

You know I’ve sold most of my Fanatec gear because of certain build quality issues I wasn’t happy with so I’m not defending them, just being open minded.

I don't. That was a mistake. I reverted it.

Every single piece I had/have from Fantec failed. Therefore I can't image, they will/can affort to change their manufacturing policies that much to match with simucube/mige/sincos. And Thomas from Fanatec has built up some cult with a bunch of loyalists. Thank's to many "unbiased" people like Simracing-Girl and many promises. The Steve Jobs/apple of Simracing... And just look like they are advertising the CSW 2.5: "The servo wheel". That's their kind of marketing, but I don't like that at all.

But despite all the negative stuff, I can't complain about their support. I always got fast help and replacement gear or replacement parts.

But that's really it form my side. Everyone can buy what he want's. Or just wait till Christmas 2020. It's a free country (fortunately, at least where most of us live).

 

[Deleted member 197115]

no communitiy software. mmos is not beeing used anymore and simubube software comes directly from granity.

Not entirely accurate.
Simucube FW is still in beta and many find MMos still providing better results than new FW.
Older non Simucube board based builds, Argon, IONICube only work with MMos.

So yeah, MMOs is very much in use still.

 

[MegamanAT]

Not entirely accurate.
Simucube FW is still in beta and many find MMos still providing better results than new FW.
Older non Simucube board based builds, Argon, IONICube only work with MMos.

So yeah, MMOs is very much in use still.

We are not talking about OSW oldtimers. It's about buying an OSW right now. Who would buy an Argon based OSW today? No one! MMOS does not support new encoders like Sincos since the devloper has stopped working on it.

So you have both, right? Argon based and Simucube ones. Please tell us the difference form your first row experience and why mmos is better.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

I don't. That was a mistake. I reverted it.

Every single piece I had/have from Fantec failed. Therefore I can't image, they will/can affort to change their manufacturing policies that much to match with simucube/mige/sincos. And Thomas from Fanatec has built up some cult with a bunch of loyalists. Thank's to many "unbiased" people like Simracing-Girl and many promises. The Steve Jobs/apple of Simracing... And just look like they are advertising the CSW 2.5: "The servo wheel". That's their kind of marketing, but I don't like that at all.

But despite all the negative stuff, I can't complain about their support. I always got fast help and replacement gear or replacement parts.

But that's really it form my side. Everyone can buy what he want's. Or just wait till Christmas 2020. It's a free country (fortunately, at least where most of us live).

Ah ok, no worries, I was just confused what you disagreed with.

I think you are looking at it from the wrong perspective, you and I know better now because we’ve tried other (more expensive) options. However compare it to most people who have come from Logitech G25/27 or other low end wheels, the Fanatec ecosystem compared to those is pretty impressive.

The Fanatec Clubsport range makes those feel like toys, it’s only when you go up another level you realise that even the Fanatec stuff is like a toy too. It’s just the nature of consumer products built to a cost, if they convince everyone their product is better than everyone else’s even if it’s not then that’s just good marketing if people don’t care enough to do their own research you can’t blame Fanatec.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

First of all Argon is the only true OSW, original Open Sim Wheel design, everything else technically not.
I only have Argon and not planning to change any time soon, as a hardware Argon is a better platform, it's just harder for builders as requires more components to put together. But it has embedded power supply with its own excellent controller thus much higher voltage rating and better torque control.
Simucube FW is in indefinite beta (one part time developer working in his spare time) and the board has some design issue with cross talk induced servo noise, thus people switching to SinCos as it alleviates that noise to some degree.
This is from SimuCube users that prefer MMos.
https://forum.virtualracing.org/showthread.php/100697-Simucube?p=2350804&viewfull=1#post2350804

At least with SimuCube you have a choice which one to use.

 

[MegamanAT]

Ah ok, no worries, I was just confused what you disagreed with.

I think you are looking at it from the wrong perspective, you and I know better now because we’ve tried other (more expensive) options. However compare it to most people who have come from Logitech G25/27 or other low end wheels, the Fanatec ecosystem compared to those is pretty impressive.

The Fanatec Clubsport range makes those feel like toys, it’s only when you go up another level you realise that even the Fanatec stuff is like a toy too. It’s just the nature of consumer products built to a cost, if they convince everyone their product is better than everyone else’s even if it’s not then that’s just good marketing if people don’t care enough to do their own research you can’t blame Fanatec.

agree. it just drives me crazy, when people, who never ever have driven an osw, want to tell me fairy tales.. based on what they have read in some forums.

I have driven all of them and own a simucube/large mige/sincos osw. and it is worth every cent. don't wait, if you have the money.

 

[Balroque]

Simracing hardware is fast pacing area quite similar to other fast developing products like graphic cards, etc. You can always wait for something better or wait for better price and u never buy one.

IMHO the most exciting thing about Fanatec DD wheel is its concept. Unlike the OSW, Bodnar and others, it should have out runner custom made servo made for simracing purpose. But I wouldn't wait for it, if I would be searching for one now. It could be great and hopefully will, but it can also take a while before it will be available, no clear pricing yet and still it will have to proof to be as good as expected.

I did have 4 CSW 2.0 bases over last five years from personal reasons, V3 pedals, almost all wheels, handbreak,.. At the moment I have shifter and 2 wheels adjusted to OSW. I believe for high middle range - Fanatec is the best option on the market and is delivering best immersion and ffb. Their service is great, especially if product is still under the warranty and if you live in the country where they are available - Europe, USA, Australia,.. Im living now in NZ and then when any problem appears, it could be more tricky and costy.

I did have Ioni OSW in the past and now Simucube Large Mige. Simucube is very user friendly now and easy to setup. The argument that Argon and mmos is better then Simucube is same like BMW made in 90th's is better then one made in 2018. Maybe more durable, but unless the collection or special personal value you wouldn't buy the older one.

Accuforce has plenty happy users and its own benefits and SS2 Leo Bodnar, ...... well everyone would like to have one or at least try one, me included. But I would not expect big difference compare to osw, it is like golf clubs, personal feeling is important and more expensive clubs better handicap, but thats obviously not true.

Simplicity starts to sell now some weaker osw's and cheaper, which could be interesting or there are trying establish some new companies selling "cheaper" dd wheels.

If friend of mine would ask me what to buy now or in close future in top range, it would be either Simucube small Mige 20nm from Simracing Bay or Accuforce from Simexperience; depending on preferences. Simracing Bay over others like Augury or Simplicity mostly only because of Fanatec adapter, if you want to use Fanatec steering wheel. Otherwise all most common OSW producers are well known for their products and customer service and getting great feedback from their customers.

 

[Mr Latte]

Fanatec already have had licenses with Porsche / BMW and now Mclaren, for rims, exclusives with Microsoft and Forza. They innovate and are more than just about a wheelbase. They could deliver an excellent product with additional features and exciting new rims.

Seems to be a bit of angst in this thread towards anyone that is excited or interested in waiting to see what they deliver in 2018. I think that's uncalled for, especially as so little yet is still known to form any true comparisons to what is on the market now. Delay for the product is being taken as negative, when it may not even be. Clearly, for those looking to buy into a DD wheel, it depends how big of a rush they are in if it's even worth considering to hold off.

Kunos appeared at the Fanatec stand as featured on these forums and I would not be surprised if Fanatec's DD wheel appears at the "AC Competizione" event during 22-24 June 2018.

Often Fanatec have used E3 to showcase products, (while not always). E3 will take place from 12 June to 14th. So we are not far from these but Q2 of the year should at least start to bring more on what is happening regards Fanatec.

While nothing has been confirmed it would not surprise me if Fanatec have new commercial deals or partnerships, who knows maybe even one or more rims from cars within the Blancpain series and a tie in with Kunos.

Maybe this is not even close but personally, I see no reason they cant deliver a product range more exciting or any worse than Accuforce.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

@Mr Latte, how familiar you are with Fanatec brand, is that what you drive today?

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte, how familiar you are with Fanatec brand, is that what you drive today?

Would you give it a rest....

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Would you give it a rest....

Not sure I follow, something was wrong with the question?
Do you drive sims, and if you do what is your wheel of choice today?
Do you have first hands experience with Fanatec products, which ones?

 

[Mr Latte]

Not sure I follow, something was wrong with the question?
Do you drive sims, and if you do what is your wheel of choice today?
Do you have first hands experience with Fanatec products, which ones?

Look, Im not interested in your debating, it aint gonna happen....
What wheels I have owned in the past (including several Fanatec) or own now is Irrelevant to this topic or where you are trying to take this.

SimXperience produced how many wheels before the Accuforce, yet they delivered a good product.

You clearly are being biased and bashing here. Against a product, that we know little about, yet already you and others can somehow determine how good or worthwhile it will be. Amusing, as we don't know the price, the final spec, the additional features, what it comes with and what the main benefits are between the two models or over other current offerings.

I'm willing as I am sure many others are, is to wait and see what they (Fanatec) bring to the table.
If it sucks, guess what, people can make a good purchase on a better alternative. If it takes too long in coming then as already stated, plenty of people are enjoying the current crop of DD wheels on the market. Waiting a few more months now is not going to be unbearable. Either way we should in the community be excited about the potential or prospects. Fanatec raised the bar on each line they built, moving more from toy - professional. They are well aware of issues of the past and no doubt have closely looked at what the current wheels offer in this price range and using an industrial grade of components.

At this level or expected pricepoints, no wheel should be a bad performer or purchase.

 

[Balroque]

Agree with Mr. Latte

Here are two great comments from Iracing forum from Beano, one of the OSW Godfathers, towards new Fanatec DD Wheel. (I hope, he won't mind, I posted it here).
So it will be exciting when the will launch Podium for sure.

Beano:
"The Fanatec DD wheel tech is based upon 'Outrunner' servo technology, as opposed to the 'Inrunner' tech your and my servos are using. So instead of an inner rotating shaft and stationary housing, it has a stationary hub and rotating outer piece.

Here is one example from NSK, which could explain better ->> http://210.164.22.103/company/presslounge/news/2010/press100805.html

This technology allows use of a larger surface area for the permanent magnets spread around the circumference of the outer shell, as well as more stator coils wired for torque - these things are immensely powerful compared to the Inrunner servos, my understanding is Thomas and Team had theirs custom-wired /manufactured to give a specific torque level at a specific RPM, and Voltage....

So they will be the cream of the crop as far as servos are concerned, hopefully the FW will do the servo justice. But no reason why it won't, it will take a lot of Dev work and testing, but once there, it should provide a very good DD wheel solution. "

and second comment

"There always will be benefits to custom servo design (if they include performance and reliability ) for the intended application. An Outrunner servo, such as the tech Thomas has selected, will have benefits, like the following - there will be more, but this is a short summary - and very few drawbacks, if any:

1) Very compact size for the torque delivery - these things pack a big punch in a small enclosure, relative to std servos
2) Custom voltage levels, these will be designed for the PSU he has in mind - not sure if it is 24V, 36V, 48V, but immaterial
3) Because of a design specific to your voltage requirements, it will also fit in your RPM range - probably somewhere in the 250-350rpm range for DD wheels to have a modicum of safety, yet fast response
4) Probably a fair bit higher inertia, but this will give more natural mechanical feel due to inherent damping
5) Correct stator resistance values will allow cooler operation under the same torque levels than std servos
6) Custom housing/mounting designs to suit your application/enclosure better
7) Custom shaft diameters, encoder solutions et al. "

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Look, Im not interested in your debating, it aint gonna happen....
What wheels I have owned in the past (including several Fanatec) or own now is Irrelevant to this topic or where you are trying to take this.

I'd say branding and brand track record are extremely important when choosing the product, even unreleased one.
Thus my question on your experience with the brand as mine unfortunately was less than stellar.
But yeah, if miracle happens and all what was promised will be delivered with exceptional (non Fanatec) quality, durability, and competitive price, I'll be one of the first to jump on it.
Who doesn't want certified, commercial offering with all these nice features.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

The components won’t be industrial grade for sure.

You can tell by the way Thomas describes other DD wheels as being overengineered and making a custom servo motor which isn’t normally used in industrial applications already means the main part isn’t expected to run 24/7 in machinery like the motors in the others.

Now sure they weren’t designed for sim racing but there are pros to that too and durability is top of that list.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I think it was Beano who said that heavy daily usage of servo controller and motor for simracing is like early retirement for them comparing to what they are going through in the typical machining shop.

 

[Peter Klawitter]

my experience with Fanatec products was super, strangely and well good for me, never had a single issue with my Fanatec products. (has CSW v1, v2, CSP v2, shifter, handbrake, various steering wheels and USB universal hub)
after my Logitech G25 to G27, I got G29, which was absolute nightmare from unpacking, pedals and wheel had issue, i think i had 2x or 3x RMA's on that. then tried Thrustmaster T300, has 2x RMA's on it, also T500 issues, with getting to hot, then auto-calibration and etc. just horrible. then decided to get a Reimer V2 Premium OSW (Argon+Lenze) came out also complete nightmare, never got it to work and 6-8 weeks after he sold me the setup he shut down his business. there i was, sold it all, and got myself a SimQuip.net OSW (IONI Pro HC+his own mix+small MiGE) and have had zero issues with it, love the feeling of FFB, can't describe it, but pure pleasure using it. only truth on OSW's, is that the DOR in some sims is not automatic, because they don't communicate with the OSW (i don't know how better to explain or put it technically) so, you have to adjust DOR in MMos (software for OSW) for the sims and sometimes like for rF2 for each vehicle. it could be all better IMHO.
Logitech, Thrustmaster and Fanatec - for being multi million companies (maybe Fanatec less than the other two) but they should pay more attention to quality, quality control and what their paying customers get at the end of the day, there should not be nightmares for RMA, support and etc. i have simracing friends who gone through so much trouble and headache with the above companies and their products, should not be and is unnecessary.
expensive doesn't mean is the best or the only way to go, i have heard good and bad on every product out there. from Logitech, Thrustmaster, Fanatec, OpenSimWheel's, ECCI, to SimXperience AF v1 and v2, to even LeoBodnar SS1 and SS2 complaints on their software. (hardware problems, software problems and etc., again, there are so many variables which play a role in every hardware along with CPU, motherboard, USB chipset, GPU and etc. all the way to just purchasing simply a LEMON...) never ending story in my opinion. i think one has to try and find what is best for him, he is happy with and is proud to own with minimum of problems/ no problems at all.
...you win some, you lose some.

 

[Mr Latte]

The components won’t be industrial grade for sure.

You can tell by the way Thomas describes other DD wheels as being overengineered and making a custom servo motor which isn’t normally used in industrial applications already means the main part isn’t expected to run 24/7 in machinery like the motors in the others.

Now sure they weren’t designed for sim racing but there are pros to that too and durability is top of that list.

I read that differently, to me he was stating current units on the market were not designed specifically for Sim racing. Also the demands on them are different to that of a sim steering wheel. So their philosophy is to design a unit that is DD based but made specifically for a sim steering wheel purposes and one that can bring benefits of finesse or power deliver combined with integrated software, stronger developer involvement and unique collaborations with car manufacturers for new rims.

They have to be designing and investing heavily towards the longterm future of the company. So its a very big but important step the company is taking. I don't get it where you guys think it is beyond possible they can deliver a good product and bring something new or exciting to the community.

Part of me questions the name "Podium" yet only 2 products so far have been announced. They seem to be targeting professional users or those that demand the best and semi-pro consumers. So it seems apparent this technology can be scaled down in performance/power etc.

Maybe its just my own thinking here, but if they invest heavily into this new technology then its possible all their wheels in the future would use this. Or certainly, having 3 product ranges (Podium) and the 3rd potentially coming later replacing the Clubsport V2.5 when they have ceased production and cleared stocks of it.

Yet with the "Podium" series they will maintain cross-compatibility with all the rims/ accessories they develop.

You guys can get defensive all you want and play it down but for me, Im very eager and hopeful that what they bring is of a high quality, brings new features, benefits and turns out to be excellent product(s) to consider. Time will tell but each product has to be treated on its own merits, of features, price, reliability and performance.

Nothing any of you speculate or doubt will change the interest of those waiting to see or at least learn more about these new wheels. Even if you are correct on points you make, some will determine for themselves when more is known and based on the true facts or situation.

I personally would rather see Fanatec succeed than fail.