Is GSC's grip close to real grip?

[Genci Estebanez]

Hi!

A friend of mine has tested GSCE 2013 and though he has liked it a lot, he thinks the cars -the originals that come with the sim- have more grip than expected.

He believes that Enduracers, or HIstoric GT, from rfactor, are closer to reality than GSC's cars, with less grip and better behaviour.

As I've never driven a race car, I couldn´t tell wich sim ( including rfactor2) is more real.

What do you think?

Cheers

 

[morsify]

Personally I think it is an excellent representation of real life grip.

IRL I have raced or driven karts (raced F6 prokarts and tested 250 National Gearbox), raced an MG on Yokohama semi-slicks, an ex indycar on slicks, and several road cars on race circuits on various tyres.

As a basic rule of thumb, the grip provided by a slick tyre on a smooth race circuit is phenomenal. In several years of kart racing it never ceased to amaze me how fast these tyres are compared to road tyres. The grip provided by road tyres is much less, because of the grooves, leaving less rubber in contact with the surface.
So if your friend has driven road cars, then historic cars and other cars that race with road going tyres are possibly going to feel more familiar to him.

 

[Travis]

Rubens Barrichello plays GSC (I'm certain he praises GSC in Reiza's video) as does Felipe Massa and a host of other drivers: http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/threads/felipe-massa-plays-game-stock-car.42796/#post-974074

I'd say the grip is as realistic as rFactor allows; many people seem to think racing tyres have no grip for some reason not to mention zero downforce...

 

[David Wright]

Hi!

A friend of mine has tested GSCE 2013 and though he has liked it a lot, he thinks the cars -the originals that come with the sim- have more grip than expected.

He believes that Enduracers, or HIstoric GT, from rfactor, are closer to reality than GSC's cars, with less grip and better behaviour.

I recently compared Historic GT. GT Legends and the PLGTL mod for GTL by comparing laptimes with the real life laptimes. Even allowing for me not being a quick driver I couldn't get anywhere near the real laptimes with Historic GT. Ask your friend to try the Lotus Cortina at Hockenheim GP or Zolder. The fastest laps in real life were 2:11.3 at Hockenheim GP and 1:57.2 at Zolder. And the real laptimes were set by amateur drivers, albeit good ones I'm sure, not Lewis Hamilton.

 

[Tim Ling]

Just a thought that HistorX tried to emulate the tyres of the era, not the tyres that are used today, so the grip levels will be much lower

 

[Wedsley Dias]

Agreeing with what has been said, many real and current V8's pilots who have used or use the GSC, confirmed through reports and testimony that is very close similarity between the real and virtual (V8's). Rubens Barrichello, Caca Bueno Felipe Lapenna, Vitor Genz and others...

 

[Gijs van Elderen]

I recently compared Historic GT. GT Legends and the PLGTL mod for GTL by comparing laptimes with the real life laptimes. Even allowing for me not being a quick driver I couldn't get anywhere near the real laptimes with Historic GT. Ask your friend to try the Lotus Cortina at Hockenheim GP or Zolder. The fastest laps in real life were 2:11.3 at Hockenheim GP and 1:57.2 at Zolder. And the real laptimes were set by amateur drivers, albeit good ones I'm sure, not Lewis Hamilton.

Here are some real live laptimes of zolder : click here from the Belgium Historic Cup. @Rupe Wilson : I think you will like the list of cars.
Note: class 4 and 5 are young timers and on modern slicks. Class 1, 2, 3 are on DOT/semi slick tires. And some of these amature drivers are former winners of the 24h zolder, 24h spa, like that guy on P4 in Porsche 911.

 

[macaco27]

Hey guys, don´t wanna to be a db, but GSC has contract/partnership with Stock car V8 series. I don´t think you can really trust on their opinions. I bet no one will find any f1 driver talking bad about f1 codemasters physics on youtube video.
Look, i´m not saying that the game is unrealistic in any form but these guys (except from Massa) runs a real series with real sponsors also present on game.
Not entirely truth but also not entirely a lie. Rubens Barrichello is in fact a fan of simracing and used to play on rFactor.

 

[David Wright]

Just a thought that HistorX tried to emulate the tyres of the era, not the tyres that are used today, so the grip levels will be much lower

Sorry to drag the topic further of topic, but HistorX includes the very cars that set the real life times - the TC65 Cortinas belonging to Warmenius and Gustavsson. And the tyres used in TC65 try to emulate the tyres of the period including grip level - competitors have to use Dunlop vintage racing tyres.

To try to get back on topic, try to find some real life laptimes for the 2013 season. While laptimes depend on other factors such as mass and power, these are usually easy to check and get right.

 

[Rupe Wilson]

I would say if any thing we should be a little faster than real life as we don't experience the driving forces of actually sitting in a real car or the fear factor..
i never really worry about lap times to real cars its all about the racing and the grin factor.
do i race these cars with friends and have a good time while doing it.
Realism is great to a certain extent but if its not fun i don't drive it.

Cars that do have a tendency to slide in a sim, take the Cortina in HistorX, yes its slides and is tail happy. But for me is all about how they do it can it be controlled and driven. do i get a good feel in the wheel which allows me to feel and control what the car is doing..
i can control the Cortina in HistorX when it breaks loose allot better than say in GTL.
if i take the Opala in GSC that car moves around and slides. its great fun driving it.
and it is controllable. this is why i like it. it may be close to the real thing in its feel or it may be way off the mark, i don't really care because its got the grin factor that's what makes these games special.

As with every sim out there there will be certain flaws or things that are not quite as real as we all would like. but if i look at the overall package, i have great fun driving
them.

No sim will ever create the real thing its imposable, but it can come close in certain areas.

 

[Wedsley Dias]

@macaco27 Makes sense what you say, but before the statements can not forget that the @Reiza Studios developed GSC based on information from teams and riders Stock Car Real, just to make it closer to reality.

Much of the riders mentioned, vying for championships in leagues here in Brazil without sponsorship, it leads me to believe even more in their statements because like never ridden a real V8, I prefer to give credit where it is business.

 

[Quas]

Sorry to drag the topic further of topic, but HistorX includes the very cars that set the real life times - the TC65 Cortinas belonging to Warmenius and Gustavsson. And the tyres used in TC65 try to emulate the tyres of the period including grip level - competitors have to use Dunlop vintage racing tyres.

To try to get back on topic, try to find some real life laptimes for the 2013 season. While laptimes depend on other factors such as mass and power, these are usually easy to check and get right.

I don't know how the cars of todays historic racing compare to their counterparts back in the day spec-wise but if i watch recent vintage racing videos, the Cortinas don't lean & slide nearly as much as Jim Clark does in this little clip:

If you watch the replay of a fast Cortina lap in HistorX it looks very similiar to that
"Swinging Style", it's pretty natural to drive that car in a little drift, again contrary to how i perceive the cars movement in modern videos of the same car.
I'm inclined to think laptimes would be different too, if the movement of the car is different.
I also agree with Rupe that ultimately it all comes down to fun but in most cases
more real = more fun (at least for me), since you get more joy of a car if it does what you expect it to do.

Regarding GSC, i remember when the Minis were about to come out the guys at Reiza showed a telemetry comparison between the real life & the sim car which was pretty much identical, i'm no physics engineer but that has to be 1:0 for Reiza.

I don't think you can compare GSC with HGTTC, except for the Opala which is a car from the end of the 70's and if you compare it to a '71 Capri 2600RS it certainly doesn't feel as if it had much more grip, especially considering there's almost 10 years between those cars (I'm not really sure it has more at all, haven't driven the Opala for a while but it doesn't strike me as very sticky in my memories).
Obviously there's gonna be a huge difference in grip between a 40 year old Mini on narrow street tires and a modern, race prepped one on slicks .

 

[Travis]

Hey guys, don´t wanna to be a db, but GSC has contract/partnership with Stock car V8 series. I don´t think you can really trust on their opinions. I bet no one will find any f1 driver talking bad about f1 codemasters physics on youtube video.

I believe you'll find that Rubens wasn't paid to appear in the video nor to praise it either; it's the same situation when Rubens praised SimBin for their simulation.

As for the accuracy of the grip levels, Niels Heusinkveld is a proven expert in the field rFactor physics; here is the graph for the Mini add-on (taken from http://www.virtualr.net/game-stock-car-2012-telemetry-comparison)

 

[David Wright]

I don't know how the cars of todays historic racing compare to their counterparts back in the day spec-wise but if i watch recent vintage racing videos, the Cortinas don't lean & slide nearly as much as Jim Clark does in this little clip:

If you watch the replay of a fast Cortina lap in HistorX it looks very similiar to that
"Swinging Style", it's pretty natural to drive that car in a little drift, again contrary to how i perceive the cars movement in modern videos of the same car.
I'm inclined to think laptimes would be different too, if the movement of the car is different.

Today's historic racers are certainly more stiffly sprung than they were in the 60s. They are also more powerful benefiting from 50 years of tuning. But the Dunlop tyres are made in the same molds as the originals and are designed to give the same grip.

How much you slide the car is down to driving style. This Jaguar is racing on Dunlop Vintage historic racing tyres.

If you trail brake the GTL Cortina (as Jimmy Clark did) it will slide, though the stiffer suspension does stop the 3 wheeling.

But this is a red herring. I'm driving the 2004/5 TC65 Cortinas in HistorX not the 1965 version. It has the modern roll cage, the modern MOTEC display and more power than a 65 Cortina. It should give laptimes in the same ballpark as the real thing.

 

[Quas]

But this is a red herring. I'm driving the 2004/5 TC65 Cortinas in HistorX not the 1965 version. It has the modern roll cage, the modern MOTEC display and more power than a 65 Cortina. It should give laptimes in the same ballpark as the real thing.

I was talking purely about the driving not about skins or car models, obviously it's gonna be the 2004/5 car since it's taken directly from GTL. I'd say for people with an emphasis on historically accurate models and skins P&G would be the better alternative.
I'll take the sim that drives like the old days over the one that looks like back then but of course it would be best to have both in one package.

GTL with it's almost nonexsistent slip angles and the sudden loss of grip never felt like driving old cars to me.
P&G in my opinion has elevated the cars to another level, the models and skins are the best of the 3 by far, FFB also great. But although it is fun to drive, i find the amount of grip offered totally unbelievable which puts me off so much that i haven't touched it for almost a year. The bad GTR2 netcode doesn't help it either.
HGT&TC might offer 60's cars handling in 2004 skins of 60's cars or whatever else inaccuracy, but since i find the physics to be the most believeable this is not a big deal. Also sounds and netcode are best of the 3 which pretty much makes it a no brainer for me which one to choose .

Sorry for offtopic.

 

[Angelo dos Santos]

Hey guys, don´t wanna to be a db, but GSC has contract/partnership with Stock car V8 series. I don´t think you can really trust on their opinions. I bet no one will find any f1 driver talking bad about f1 codemasters physics on youtube video.
Look, i´m not saying that the game is unrealistic in any form but these guys (except from Massa) runs a real series with real sponsors also present on game.
Not entirely truth but also not entirely a lie. Rubens Barrichello is in fact a fan of simracing and used to play on rFactor.

Well, you find on the servers other professional drivers that doesnt race in the real Stock Car Series, doesnt advertise for the game, and still say that so far GSC in terms of physics is the more close to the real you will get.
Specially the V8s, and the F3s.

I know because I´ve be racing against them.

Some of them are even more junkies than me in this stuff!

Drivers that contested the Mini Challenge. Drivers that race the Formula Truck.

And those guys have no hidden interests, as some may suggest.

 

[Quas]

Well, you find on the servers other professional drivers that doesnt race in the real Stock Car Series, doesnt advertise for the game, and still say that so far GSC in terms of physics is the more close to the real you will get.
Specially the V8s, and the F3s.

I know because I´ve be racing against them.

Some of them are even more junkies than me in this stuff!

Drivers that contested the Mini Challenge. Drivers that race the Formula Truck.

And those guys have no hidden interests, as some may suggest.

Yep, i also had the pleasure of meeting the real world drivers (both Scuderia Iveco guys) in Formula Truck lobbies twice, providing they used their real names. I didn't doubt though since i've never met anyone faster in FT.
Reiza seems to be genuinely popular with racing drivers.

 

[macaco27]

And those guys have no hidden interests, as some may suggest.

The guys which i was referring has no "hidden" interests. Au contraire.

 

[Genci Estebanez]

Well, overall I see GSC is quite close to real grip. It's never going to be 100% but for me it's enough knowing that fact. I like things as real as possible.

 

[Niels_at_home]

Grip levels are / should be pretty close. Its also what happens when you make a small mistake. Some sims and mods are unforgiving and you often spin out once you start to slide. We think this is unrealistic and there should be some drivability beyond the limit as well. This should not be confused with 'too much grip', but more the grip beyond the limit.