iRacing FFB

[Michael Hornbuckle]

Meh. Love the tracks, love the structure, hate the way the cars feel. Oh well, enough off topic probably.

 

[Blkout]

Look in "My Documents" folder for files looking like this: "log2 2013-11-29 18-29-38.csv"

Here's the test run at default 75%.

 

[muscimol]

Default WheelCheck settings are OK.
Here is combined graph:

60% is most linear although still far from perfect, but there is a huge deadzone, you would have to try 18% min force, 14% with default 75% and as I mentioned above 12-13% for 80%.
You do like the 80% most because it has the smallest deadzone, but it is big nevertheless.
With properly configured min force you shouldn't notice much difference in iRacing but remember to check the linear mode on, otherwise you will get even more boost to the low forces than you already have.

 

[Blkout]

Default WheelCheck settings are OK.
Here is combined graph:

60% is most linear although still far from perfect, but there is a huge deadzone, you would have to try 18% min force, 14% with default 75% and as I mentioned above 12-13% for 80%.
You do like the 80% most because it has the smallest deadzone, but it is big nevertheless.
With properly configured min force you shouldn't notice much difference in iRacing but remember to check the linear mode on, otherwise you will get even more boost to the low forces than you already have.

Cool. It's interesting to see the numbers like that but I have to wonder how much deadzone is normal because the TX has slightly less deadzone to me than the T500 and both of them have far less than the deadzone my G27 had. I have to wonder if its a slight inaccuracy of the Wheel Check program. in Assetto Corsa for instance, the wheel reacts immediately to any movement of the wheel, its extremely sensitive. The G27 on the other hand had a nice little deadzone in the middle that you could move the wheel and nothing would happen. I just don't know you can get less deazone than instant response.

Also if I understand that graph correctly, 80% has the least deadzone as you stated but all three of those FFB gain settings have a similar linearity curve but the higher the FFB gain, the stronger the force without really changing the linearity curve itself.

 

[Stereo]

With properly configured min force you shouldn't notice much difference in iRacing but remember to check the linear mode on, otherwise you will get even more boost to the low forces than you already have.

Huh, that linear mode is relevant on consumer wheels? I thought that was to disable the elbow they do to reduce strong forces, so that Bodnar wheels and stuff can be fed realistic (extra high) force.

 

[Bakkster]

Huh, that linear mode is relevant on consumer wheels? I thought that was to disable the elbow they do to reduce strong forces, so that Bodnar wheels and stuff can be fed realistic (extra high) force.

Yes. I find the linear response helpful with my G27, even with the reduced strength for small forces. My issue with the non-linear was it made it too easy to overcorrect when I'd get into a slide.

 

[muscimol]

I have to wonder if its a slight inaccuracy of the Wheel Check program. in Assetto Corsa for instance, the wheel reacts immediately to any movement of the wheel, its extremely sensitive.

There is no innacuracy in the WheelCheck results and I can assure you that with min force setting FFB in Assetto Corsa would be much more detailed.
On G27 boosting the forces from 100% to 115% reduces deadzone from 16% to 2%:

and I can definitely feel much better feedback, although I would really prefer min force which would allow 0 deadzone and more linear response at 100%.

The G27 on the other hand had a nice little deadzone in the middle that you could move the wheel and nothing would happen.

You're confusing FFB deadzone and mechanical deadzone in G27, they're both present but it's something different.

Huh, that linear mode is relevant on consumer wheels?

Of course, especially on wheels like G27 and Thrustmaster TX which already boost low forces. You're probably confusing FFB linear mode with brake curve, which should be set to linear on high end hydraulic or load sensor pedals.

 

[Stereo]

Based on this I had set my DFGT to 90% strength (in profiler) and 7% deadzone, I'll check out linear mode today.


It would be nice if they added the full lookup-table linearity, I tried setting a midpoint in wheelcheck (map 0:0, 4000:6000, 10000:10000 or so) and it straightened it right out. It looks like the G27's even worse for compressing high-end forces, considering they both bend around 80 and the G27 has 50% more top end strength.

 

[Blkout]

OK sanity check here...

There has to be something else influencing the "deadzone", apparently the stronger FFB wheels have a larger deadzone using the Wheel Check program which is a little strange considering no one ever mentions the T500 having any kind of deazone so that's why I wonder how accurate the Wheel Check program is in regards to the deadzone and how its measured. Maybe a really well damped or controlled wheel is affecting that part of the measurement. A 10-15% deadzone would be HUGE and very noticeable for any wheel. Take any wheel and set a 10-15% steering deeadzone in-game and its noticeable right away and that's why I find it hard to believe that the T500 or the TX has a 10-15% deadzone while wheels with much lower FFB strength and smaller motors have well below 10% deadzone, it just doesn't make any sense to me. Just because the Wheel Check program is very helpful in analyzing various force inputs and wheel response, it doesn't mean to me that it should be blindly accepted without question if something just doesn't seem to add-up. Again, as a G27, T500, and TX owner, I just know the driving characteristics of each of these wheels very well. Yes I know the G27 has some mechanical deadzone due to the dual motors not fighting against each other, but I also know that the T500 and TX steering response is instant so it doesn't jive that there's a deadzone of 10-15%. What I'm more inclined to believe is that the wheels with bigger motors and more powerful FFB are also more damped and controlled and at very small FFB inputs from the game, those effects might me too damped to notice much which may be what the Wheel Check program is observing and its entirely possible that those smaller inputs may not even be noticeable in game on any wheel. Not enough wheel movement at small inputs due to more damping, but maybe the problem is calling that repsonse a "deadzone" and should be called overdamped. Now, the T500 has a reputation of feeling a bit overdamped and it could be due to the very large, powerful brushed motor but the TX is using a brushless motors and feels extremely quick in steering response compared to the T500, yet according to Wheel Check, there's only a 2-3% difference in the "deadzone"; hard to imagine to me. In suggesting an increase of minimum FFB to lower the "deadzone", I don't think that deadzone is the proper term in this case. Raising the FFB minimum in order to make the chart show more response at a lower FFB input sounds to me like we're simply increase the minimum FFB in order to overcome more wheel resistance or motor dampening. This would certainly make more sense logically as a larger FFB motor will likely be more damped and controlled at smaller inputs where as smaller motor FFB wheels are less damped due the fact that the motors just don't have as much strength and resistance.

Not calling anyone wrong here, but saying a T500 has a 10-15% deadzone just doesn't add up. Saying it has more damping at lower FFB inputs causing lower response at low inputs certainly sounds more plausible. Any thoughts?

 

[Stereo]

Friction might be a better description than damping - damping is proportional to speed, so it shouldn't result in the wheel not moving at all, it'll just rotate less than the motor's force would suggest (which you can't tell without knowing the motor specs etc.).

Static friction in particular is what Wheel Check is measuring with that chart.

I'm not sure it's exactly the thing that needs to be dialed out, but it's at least measurable between wheels entirely in software. The next step from there is to attach a constant torque to the wheel (eg. a weight hanging down from a drum) and see how FFB inputs affect the rate of descent.


fwiw the linear setting did improve my oversteer feeling, thanks.


You can somewhat measure the friction in the system by trying the wheel unplugged - as long as the motor circuits aren't closed, it should rotate close to freely, the amount it fails to do that is friction.

 

[Bakkster]

Friction might be a better description than damping - damping is proportional to speed, so it shouldn't result in the wheel not moving at all.

Static friction in particular is what Wheel Check is measuring with that chart.

Yes, this is the better description. You're just figuring out how much input is required to overcome the static friction of the wheel rim and all the moving parts. It doesn't much surprise me that a fancier wheel with more going on internally might have more resistance.

 

[Stereo]

What's interesting beyond that is that over in the Sim Hardware forum, Pax7's been playing with on wheel effects that can pretty much remove those sensations - letting the wheel coast as though there's no friction or damping in it, and responding to input as if it had less inertia than there was. It needs to be on the wheel to get a quick enough feedback loop, and maybe needs the strength and accuracy of the servo motor he uses, but it'd be nice to think a software mod can do the same for cheaper wheels.

I guess the mainstream manufacturers don't tune this kind of thing away by default because up until relatively recently (G25-ish) there were very few or no games that sent 'real' torques to the wheel, and needed a clean response with no built in friction/damping/etc. Don't know if the main console games are there yet, I know nothing about their internals.

 

[Blkout]

Yes, this is the better description. You're just figuring out how much input is required to overcome the static friction of the wheel rim and all the moving parts. It doesn't much surprise me that a fancier wheel with more going on internally might have more resistance.

The thing is, are we really saying that a fancier wheel having more going on inside is a problem of some sort? I mean we're talking about a motor and gears, or a motor and a belt, until you step up to the professional level wheels with screw drives and servo motor, etc.

The G25/27 is well known to be a little slower than belt driven wheels to change direction due to the friction from the gear drive design compared to a belt driven design so in thar regard its inferior to a belt driven wheel but how does this lack of "friction" if we're calling it that, from a belt driven wheel not affect quick direction changes like it does in a G25/27 if "friction" is affecting the supposed low input FFB effects?

 

[Marcus Hagman]

Guys Guys!! this has absolutly NOTHING to do with iRacing offers.

 

[Blkout]

Guys Guys!! this has absolutly NOTHING to do with iRacing offers.

Yes, and if you go back a few posts you will see that I asked a mod to move any discussion related to FFB to another thread that I created. You're a bit late to the party.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

@Blkout I reported your last post to the mods asking them to split those posts into a separate thread.

 

[Blkout]

Thanks, hopefully they won't ban me since you reported me.

 

[Graham Laing]

This the split-off FFB thread from the 'iRacing' Offers thread.

Thanks, hopefully they won't ban me since you reported me.

It was heads or tails ....... luckily you won

 

[Blkout]

So I've settled in on 10% minimum FFB for my TX. I was using 12% but since I still needed to set maximum FFB for each vehicle, I had a few that needed to be set below 12% maximum so it didn't make much sense to have minimum FFB at 12% and maximum FFB at 8-10% for a few vehicles. So now, all of my vehicles are set to 10% minimum FFB except the Ford Falcon which is at 8% since my maximum is also 8% on that vehicle.

 

[Blkout]

I would like to hear some thoughts on damper settings, do any of you use damper and if so how much and why? I rarely see much effect until its almost 100% damper which just seems to make the wheel a little slower to respond to sudden changes of direction.

 

[muscimol]

I had a few that needed to be set below 12% maximum so it didn't make much sense to have minimum FFB at 12% and maximum FFB at 8-10% for a few vehicles.

You're confusing two things. There is no maximum FFB percent, just the imaginary Strength scale from 0 to 60.

You can switch the scale in app.ini with displayLinearInNm=1 setting to display the force level in peak Nm when using the linear mode so instead of e.g. Strength = 20.0 you will see 17Nm which means, that the wheel will be generating maximum strength when the calculated in simulation force at the steering rack equals 17Nm.

The scale will be inverted so the higher peak force level the less force will be felt on the wheel.

Summing this up you can use 12% minimum force and set Strength to 8.0 - no problem .

As for the dumping I highly recommend set this to 0, there is right now much better option available through app.ini:

steeringDampingMaxPercent=0.00 ; Maximum amount of damping to apply, adjust this to set damping level, values between 0.05 and 0.2 are best

but it is applicable rather to Logitech wheels, not the ones using belts which already have some internal friction.