I don't like it anymore

[Bram Hengeveld]

I don't know what it is but since the 2.0 upgrade the game feels totally ruined for me. The LMS cars, especially the Ford GT, have a griplevel like in iRacing. It suddenly snaps and there is no way you can correct the first or second (2nd!! how often do you see that in real life) slip like you used to.

Where did all the grip go? iRacing before the upgrade felt like driving real cars to me. Now its like rFactor again ;(

If there are any G27 users reading please share some information how you setup the wheel as my settings are useless now.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

It should be possibly to spin out in a 600hp car on slicks in 3rd

Real drivers would disagree with that statement. You hardly see cars sliding in 3rd or even worse ending up in second or third spin correcting the power oversteer.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Look at the amount of grip the real car has on a bumpy track like Sebring:

Imagine how much more they would have on a track like they run in the iRacing series now on Silverstone.

 

[Rich_A11]

Nice vids Bram, can't see steering input on vid2. Drive in vid1 isn't fighting too hard but the speeds and grip look pretty similar to iRacing here. Real drivers obviously cannot afford to get car way out of shape because they will loose their job, slightest twitch on wheel and they'll correct it. Over time they'll become more confident and get car a little more loose but definitely not after 2 laps.

These cars pull about 2.0G - 2.5G, well the FIA GT ones do at least. Opinions or inclinations are good but cannot make big decisions like grip level based on opinion or inclination, must be based on logic. They know realistic lap times and tracks are very accurate, the only thing that can cause developer to set grip level way low is because there is too much power or too much downforce. Force specific power and aero and all you have left to tweak for realistic lap time is tyre grip. If there is no drivetrain loss then 600hp at wheel is too much power. Does anyone know if physics models drivetrain loss? Power at wheel ought to be about 540hp for 600hp car i.e. 10% loss at wheel. If there is 600hp at wheel, well only way to get realistic lap time is to reduce grip and that would explain you inclination.

If this mistake has been made, well it's pretty amatuer mistake. Won't make cars undriveable but it won't be a true reflection of real car. I'm not really sure either way, unless I can see that there is 10% drivetrain loss I would be inclined to agree that the power/grip balance is a little off based on how my EOAA GT cars were.

EDIT: iRacing says FGT has 500hp, wiki says 550hp - so perhaps the 500hp is power at wheel which would be about right based on 550hp from engine. Am reading some topics in NTM thread at iRacing. I suspect that the tyre will become more efficient i.e. more grip on average, personally I feel they ought to do this beta testing in private.

 

[Saul Boucher]

I watched the first vid. I can't see his braking input, but it seems he is braking pretty early and only in a straight line, then coasting it into the corners. Once exiting you can see his easing it into the throttle. That's very much the way the iRacing car has to be driven, so it is very realistic.

I came to a realization last night when I was running a few laps in the Ford GT. The car seems slow, but it's actually very fast! Perhaps its the sound of the engine at low RPM's and the size, not sure. But it always seemed like the car was slow until I looked at my speedo while cornering and reaching top speeds...

With all that said however, I still do think the transition from Grip to No Grip is instant and my assumption is that it has something to do with the tire temps and pressures which people are assuming / hoping the expected update this week is addressing.

So at this point Bram I would only suggest to wait for the update before finalizing your opinion and writing it off entirely

EDIT: Just watched the second vid, and noticed that his race ended very similar to the way mine does when driving the Ford GT! Yep, very realistic indeed! LOL!

 

[Joe Hubbard]

I watched that first video and I had to drive Sebring the same EXACT way as he did in that video except one turn that I saw. That would be the final turn leading to the start/finish. I seem to take that turn in a low 3rd and I have to ease into the throtle I don't think I have tried a 2nd gear for that one. However for the rest of the course it was almost a perfect match.

**edit**
ok I made a video that I'm uploading and I tried that final turn in 2nd and I was able to take it full throtle.

 

[Joe Hubbard]

ok my video is uploading now and I was playing around with that first video that Bram posted and that is flippin crazy how exact that is. I timed my video with that one and they were a almost exact match. You can watch them side by side seeing the same lines, turning points, and braking points are used.... Ok that is almost scary... lol... I use to think that the people that said you could use iRacing as a real training tool to learn the tracks/cars were a bit on the fan boy side of things... I do not think that any longer!!!

Now I want to make something clear. I do not think the NTM is perfect by any means what so ever. There are little things that it can do that makes me think "Whhhaaaaaaaaaaaa?"... I have had it out of nowhere have a complete loss of grip on the back end and I'm not talking I pushed the car to hard either. So I think there is room to grow for the NTM however I think it's alot closer to the real thing than before without a doubt.

 

[George Pilkington]

Nice post Joe, cool as.
Wiating for the vids.
George

 

[William Levesque]

By the way guys...

Doran Ford GT-R: 515 HP (Restricted) / 630 HP (Non-Restricted)

 

[Joe Hubbard]

here it is

 

[William Levesque]

I don't understand all the fuse about it, it just handles spot on from what I'm seeing ?

 

[William Levesque]

As Niels Heusinkveld proved, rFactor is a great sim

(Corvette C6 with unofficial update, Toyota Supra, Formula Armaroli, etc...)

 

[Joe Hubbard]

Where did it go? Nowhere.

There never was one to begin with, all we had (except for the preview version of the NTM) was a oddly modelled tire and aero physics.

NOW we're told the NTM is light years ahead of the OTM, that the OTM got many things wrong, so sum it up and check the result: if "experts"/reviewers/supporters say the OTM was weak, that the NTM is the real thing, if (paid) drivers "praise" the NTM versus the OTM, if many posters complain about the NTM (versus either the OTM or the preview version of the NTM), what is the end result? The OTM was not good enough (in particular in light of all the hype), the preview NTM was a great step, the current NTM is a misfire with many problems.

Read what some real life professional think about it (check Tommy Milner's blog, for instance).

At the end of the day, we're mostly hoping Dave K. solves all the issues. It'll take time, but he can do it.

I was checking out Tommy Milner's blog as I had never seen it before. However I did not find anything about iRacing there. I did do a search but it didn't return any results. I think the only game that I did see was NFSshift2

 

[Saul Boucher]

Comments he made were on Twitter.

 

[Mike McCormick]

As many have stated, hand in hand with an obvious lack of grip, there is a clear lack of feeling. iRacing cars remain iRacing cars, poorly connected to the road. The preview version of the NTM fixed that, but now...

Have you driven the Skippy at Road Atlanta?

I have a T500 with CST's and it feels great.

It feels much better than the previous build.

I will admit there are things they need to improve in the NTM.

However, did anyone expect the NTM to be perfect in the first release?

Based on some of the comments I see in all of the sim racing forums, it seems like some did.

It will hopefully be improved with each new release, give them some time to get it right.

Also some cars feel better than others which I fully expected. I'm sure they will be tweaked on in the coming releases.

BTW I also race in two leagues with rFactor, however I prefer iRacing.

On my setup, the FFB is better and I get a better feel of what my car is doing.

The tracks are better as far as feel, at least to me.

 

[Raido]

Bram, ISI based sims are very good, much much better than most people think or like to think. Due to its open/configurabitily nature, it's very easy to criticize these sims - including rFactor. But in order to criticize with any rational basis, one has to be able to mod it, to work with its physics.
Properly configured (via hdv, tbc, pm), rFactor is very realistic. People I work with from motorsports vouch for rFactor, GTR2 or GTR Evo.

Agree - in the sense that in rFactor, being a modding kit itself, it very very much depends on the mod. In other words, it's the mod that does it. Some are pretty darn good and some are pretty darn crappy. Much more so than in iRacing.

(That said, if iRacing still hasn't 'got it right' by now, after at least four major revisions of its tyre model, it's about flippin' time they did. This ain't a newcomer sim any more and you only get so many chances to fix your stuff before your rep in simland goes down the proverbial drain.)

 

[Chronus]

I was checking out Tommy Milner's blog as I had never seen it before. However I did not find anything about iRacing there. I did do a search but it didn't return any results. I think the only game that I did see was NFSshift2

That's
Official Twitter of Tommy Milner - American Race Car Driver - Driver for Corvette Racing
http://www.tommymilner.com


There were several entries on his twitter, a couple of weeks ago - this was discussed and shown several times at the iRacing forums. Posters wrote about real life racing drivers subscribing to iRacing but being disappointed. Tommy Milner said the following:
- the COT was broken
- the Skippy didn't feel right.
- all in all, he was not impressed with the NTM (official release)

Other racing drivers said the feeling they got with iRacing was "too arcade" due to:
- too much sliding
- not enough grip
- aerodynamics are odd or simply don't work as they're supposed to
- tyre temps are either broken (FORD GT, eg.: first lap is the fastest lap)
- little or no tire wear

Tommy Milner is but one in a string of racing drivers who are not impressed with iRacing. :frown:

Have you driven the Skippy at Road Atlanta?

Mike, this has come up again and again and again with iRacing supporters: unless you are real racing driver, you don't know what you're talking about, they say. If that's also your stance, I am not even going to reply to THAT.

If you mean iRacing Skippy...

Yes. In my opinion, there is not enough difference between the current Skippy and the OTM Skippy. Both suffer from the same problems. As Greger Huttu himself put it in the video of his visit & training at Road Atlanta, the real life Skippy is much more forgiving than iRacing, handles better. Tough (as his blistered hands showed) but a car that is quite forgiving.

Agree - in the sense that in rFactor, being a modding kit itself, it very very much depends on the mod. In other words, it's the mod that does it. Some are pretty darn good and some are pretty darn crappy. Much more so than in iRacing.

gMotor2 physics are not 100% perfect, true, but they are very good, provide for very solid physics. Plus, it allows for extensive modding.

Whether or not the modders themselves know what they're doing it's another matter. This, by itself, says nothing negative about the physics of gMotor2. It's up to us to use (as per ISI's advice) as much real life figures as possible and tweak the rest in a precise, methodical way.

So, bottom line: if one has enough knowledge and works diligently, rFactor shines through. If not, there is simply no rFactor (or GTR2 or GTR EVO). The same happens with XMR or Racer (accurate sims with extensive modding capabilities).

The same cannot be said about NKP, LFS or iRacing. These are closed, thus whatever they have there it's been put solely by devs. In the case of NKP, IMO it's perfect. LFS close by. iRacing almost got there with the preview NTM and lost it on the 29th of July.

 

[Saul Boucher]

Yes, this is all a very familiar debate It's been running all over the iRacing forums since the update.

My suggestion is simply this. Let's wait for the update, and see if it addresses specific issues we all know exist, which I'm sure many of us agree on whether your a fan of the NTM currently or not

 

[Mike McCormick]

If you mean iRacing Skippy...

Yes, I am talking about the iRacing Skippy.

Yes. In my opinion, there is not enough difference between the current Skippy and the OTM Skippy. /QUOTE]

Really?

The NTM is an improvement versus the OTM, sorry you don't think it is.

There is a significant difference in how the tires feel.

BTW, that's not just my opinion.

Numerous Division 1,2, and 3 drivers seem to feel the same way.

It's not perfect by any means, but on the Skippy it is an improvement.

BTW I have raced the Skippy for 2 1/2 seasons, so it's not my first season.

I believe I have enough experience to be able to tell a difference.

Also I have raced go karts when I was young on a track and also taken my car to the track numerous times.

I do realize I'm far from a professional race driver, however I have more experience than some here who have never driven a car on a track.

BTW the video I saw showed Greger Huttu driving the Mazda, not the Skippy.

If you have one of him driving the Skippy I would appreciate a link.

 

[Phil Hopkins]

Why is it that posts that say very little if anything at all often seem to get the most response (and I'm not talking about Bram's OP...which was a clear and fair statement of his reaction to the new update)?! I suppose that's the nature of the beast (trolls are beasts, right?).

 

[Joe Hubbard]

Why is it that posts that say very little if anything at all often seem to get the most response (and I'm not talking about Bram's OP...which was a clear and fair statement of his reaction to the new update)?! I suppose that's the nature of the beast (trolls are beasts, right?).

I think that depends on the troll... There are wood trolls, rock trolls, bridge troll, cave trolls, forum trolls, ect... I think they all have different powers... Some only steal the left socks though...