Hoping this is not a sign of things to come

[Kevin Watts]

Like most other virtual racers I eagerly awaited the release of Assetto Corsa and purchased it the day it was released. I was stunned by how polished it was as an alpha/beta/early access game and enjoyed not only the superb visuals but the crisp believable handling of the cars as I threw them around the laser scanned tracks. As each week went by I looked forward to the next batch of fortnightly content and was happy to see each new car and track was crafted as well as the last. Not even the silly bickering on the Steam forums over whose game was better could dull my enthusiasm or the banal criticism’s by the console gamers because you couldn’t ‘pimp’ your car with gaudy body-kits like Forza Motorsport or that the game didn’t already have 1000 cars like Gran Turismo. Each new announcement via their web-site or Facebook page brought more excitement – a new manufacturer license, a laser scanned Nordschleife – the future looks bright…

Then it happened. The first quick and dirty conversion quite literally ripped from another game. News spread and this track suddenly became the hot topic, the ‘must have’ despite it being taken warts-and-all from a game released nearly 10 years ago. Rather than herald this new ‘mod’ it left me despairing for the racing sim community. While many virtual racers and racing simulation sites rightly shunned discussion of this ‘rip’ there were many more making asinine excuses for the author essentially taking this work without permission and grafting it into a new sim. Theft is theft no matter if you ‘get away with it’ or not or even that you give it away freely. It reminded me of rFactor and how when it was released it showed so much promise. For months we saw 3d meshes being shown by talented mod makers working their magic on new cars and tracks made from scratch.

It all seemed so exciting and then conversion tools reared their ugly heads. All of a sudden sites like rFactor Central were awash with poorly ripped work from Grand Prix Legends, Geoff Crammonds Grand Prix 4 among others. Far from pushing the genre forward it felt like we were now going backwards. The same racers who argued over the radius of a hairpin in Simbin’s rendition of Macau were suddenly silent when rFactor became awash with low poly conversions of 10 year old games complete with poorly defined racing surfaces, low resolution textures and cardboard cut-out tree’s and track side objects which screamed ‘FAKE’ as you sped past them. Questionably legal content appeared and then disappeared from the net as lawyers and mod makers played cat and mouse.

Is this really where we want to go with Assetto Corsa? - A step backwards porting generations old content complete with all their imperfections into a next gen simulation? There was a ‘gold rush’ in rFactor when the conversion tools appeared to be ‘the first’ to bring a popular track to rFactor, be it Spa or Brands Hatch for example so why would someone spend time carefully building a track from scratch when others are just ripping it from another game and fudging it into this new sim. Have our expectations really been lowered so far that we’d accept the grave robbing zombification of old content like this?

 

[Bryan O'Connor]

Very, very interesting thread. I bet WMD/SMS are watching this with great glee. As I believe that is one of the reasons they are going down the "not allowing mods" route. But that's another story.

Long live the modders and long live PC modding.

I'm in their (SMS) camp. Mods are usually visually disappointing, of questionable quality and legality and serve to splinter racers into smaller and smaller groups.
I kind of wish KS had done the same as CARS - no mods only developer DLC (at a reasonable price and reasonably frequent) as it also lines their pockets so they can keep making great content and keeps the quality high.

I would like to be able to fire up the game, search for a random public lobby and join it and have a race or 2.
With Mods in all forms this is practically impossible if your not pro-scribed to some 'series' through RD or another Forum as you almost always have the wrong Mod (should be version 0.03.954 not 0.03.930 ) and cannot find the track they are racing on.
And i cba searching and downloading gigs of data to race for a couple of hours!

And those that have set up a lobby with the 'stock' content..... there's one guy in it and he's lapping 4 seconds faster than you.

The above is just my (limited) experience of PC Sim racing to date!

 

[MRX]

I would like to be able to fire up the game, search for a random public lobby and join it and have a race or 2.
With Mods in all forms this is practically impossible if your not pro-scribed to some 'series' through RD or another Forum as you almost always have the wrong Mod (should be version 0.03.954 not 0.03.930 ) and cannot find the track they are racing on.
And i cba searching and downloading gigs of data to race for a couple of hours!

Kunos could implement an auto-downloader system for online. Just as CS, older CoD titles with mods support have. If you join a server full of mods, then those mods would automatically be downloaded.

 

[Bryan O'Connor]

Kunos could implement an auto-downloader system for online. Just as CS, older CoD titles with mods support have. If you join a server full of mods, then those mods would automatically be downloaded.

Or even Steam Workshop? Like Skyrim/Arma etc use. Keeps all your missions/skins etc all up to date.
That would help. Only just thought about Workshop!

 

[Lars Bargmann]

Random thought of the day :

Somebody should start a company, with the sole purpose of securing licenses for tracks, and then laserscan and build those tracks, and selling them. Of course they should be super-high quality, and available for all major sims!

Random afterthought : I don't think this will be economically viable AT ALL, but I like the idea.

 

[Michael Hornbuckle]

Good idea Lars BUT......You would need alot of capitol to get started. One track would still want a License (and the money up front to cover it) for each sim you were going to release the track on.
Then you would have to build that track separately for each sim and get enough players to buy it from you....

I think you said it best about now being economically viable at all...but hey, win the lottery and what else you going to do with your time? LOL

 

[Lars Bargmann]

Well, I find a bit funny that people can see this idea as not being financially viable, yet at the same time thinks it's ok to rip the track-data from one sim in order to use it in another. Someone actually did pay a lot of license-money to have that track in their sim...

 

[Michael Hornbuckle]

So how much is the license for a fictional track these days?

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

If we are still talking about Joux Plane... all stages was made out of onboard cameras they put in cars themselves. All rallies are real and licensed rallies. So it was far from "free"

 

[RaceNut]

Random thought of the day :

Somebody should start a company, with the sole purpose of securing licenses for tracks, and then laserscan and build those tracks, and selling them. Of course they should be super-high quality, and available for all major sims!

Random afterthought : I don't think this will be economically viable AT ALL, but I like the idea.

I had that same thought. It'd be a "Track Supply" warehouse for the Racing Game industry. The same could be done with cars, textures, etc. These spin-off businesses are created all the time in other industries, there must be a way to sort out the licensing issues - royalty's maybe? Maybe the gaming industry needs to have an association or cooperative just for managing the licensing, political, and legal aspects.

 

[Oemie]

As someone who's at the intersection of music production, 3D modeling, and hacking stuff, and deals with IP issues working for a software company, this is a murky and grey area where the boundaries are undefined, and there is a big difference between what is legal, what is enforceable and what is moral, and different jurisdictions and different people will have wildly differing opinions on it.

In music and software these things have likely been explored the furthest. From aggressive prosecutions by the music industry to patent trolls and software co's suing and counter-suing over billions.

The problem is that often the legal restrictions (and consequences) are too severe, not leaving enough "fair use" space, while at the same time there is often little chance of enforcement unless you start charging money for it, or a real legitimate claim can be made for lost revenue.

In music, unless you actually release an album to sell, nobody really pre-clears samples anymore (and even the ones that are released, if it's tough to recognize, often not). Lots of websites, including YouTube, will leave anything on there until a take down notice comes (now often automated, and often illegitimate). To pursue action can cost more than what you're trying to retrieve, and perhaps you don't mind, or it actually can bring focus back to an original and introduces it to a new audience. Maybe taking strong action against private indivuduals would lead to a negative public response. In some cases, modding massively extends the life of a product*. That leaves a lot of space for different people to make different moral choices, including content owners.

Personally, I would find it far more objectionable for someone ripping a mod without permission that a private person worked tirelessly on for months and gave away for free to the community, than a track from a 10-yr old game by a defunct dev house with only some rent-seeking publisher remaining to still collect. But that's me.

* I used to play a heavily modded Simcity4 for years, and am sure people bought that game largely because of mods, near the end of its life cycle.

 

[Kevin Watts]

It’s heartening to see so many sim racers show support for the true content creators, not only the original developers but importantly also the mod makers who take time to create their work from scratch as some of those people will go on to create their own sims and keep this genre alive. It is important web sites like RaceDepartment distinguishes themselves apart from the crowd and take a stand against this kind of copyright violation and ‘theft’ of someone’s hard work and fortunately other sites followed their lead. I don’t think it is a case of simply not downloading if we don’t like it as that’s just turning a blind eye to the problem rather than confronting it and discussing it in a forum like this, I certainly wouldn’t turn a blind eye to someone peddling drugs in my street because it happens in other streets in another part of town. By engaging with our fellow sim racers we can reduce the coverage illegal mods get though sadly it will never be fully eradicated but that does not make this a futile discussion.

I expected name calling, particularly from those with an irrational hatred of a particular sim, rather amusing to see them drawn to it like a moth to a flame. I love sim racing which is why I posted my opinion as I see this issue as being damaging to our niche genre – and we are a very small niche. I’ve spent countless thousands of pounds buying racing sims, racing sim hardware and PC upgrades over the years but that money is spent, like the money spent on iRacing where I have paid for all the content to date, its spent just as much as the money is that I spent on dining out last week or going to the cinema and so I look forward to the next sim and the next but how long can this continue if we not only accept this dubious content ripped from sims? Not the mention the hypocrisy of people accepting such mediocre content. By doing this we’re sending a clear message to the publishers and developers out there and it’s not one I think we want to send.

 

[Baldrick]

and so I look forward to the next sim and the next but how long can this continue if we not only accept this dubious content ripped from sims?

I think that is way down the priority list of what is a threat to sim racing development. My view would be as follows

1. Piracy of the full game & DLCs
2. Whether the hardcore market is large enough to be viable to cater for regardless of 1
3. The lack of willingness to pay more for a niche product over massive selling titles like Forza & GT
4. The capability of the community to accept that breaking into a wider market is more likely to secure their future of new titles rather than harm it
5. The prevailing attitude on forums - be it the moaning at paying for things, feeling "let down" on promises, the myriad of physics experts who claim the products are "broken", the religious debates about which sim is best whereas the developers seem to have far more mutual respect.

I agree though that sites like RD should do what they can - they can't fix all of the above - but focussing on content crossing sims that the real hardcore enthusiasts all own anyway - after all we are hardly flooded with sim racing titles over this last decade - seems a tiny part of the community engaging with developers.

 

[Mapu]

I love original, self made content!

Who would care about rip-offs?

 

[DucFreak]

As someone who's at the intersection of music production, 3D modeling, and hacking stuff, and deals with IP issues working for a software company, this is a murky and grey area where the boundaries are undefined, and there is a big difference between what is legal, what is enforceable and what is moral, and different jurisdictions and different people will have wildly differing opinions on it.
(...)
Personally, I would find it far more objectionable for someone ripping a mod without permission that a private person worked tirelessly on for months and gave away for free to the community, than a track from a 10-yr old game by a defunct dev house with only some rent-seeking publisher remaining to still collect. But that's me.

Among the gazillion of posts in this discussion/thread (and a bunch of very silly (imature?) ones) this stands out as, perhaps, the most eloquent to me, and the one I define myself with the most.
FWIW, I've participated in a few commercial game titles (sub-contracted), and have been also into games modding for over a decade (as sound designer, but not only).

Personally, I may not like it but I don't really care much if the commercial stuff I did for some companies is ripped by some guy who isn't committed (or talented) enough to do it from scratch (or maybe it's pure laziness?), mostly because I was paid already for that work. (not being credited in some of those titles actually pisses me a lot more than the really poor money figures involved in the business... you know who are... *wink*)
However, seeing someone blatantly taking whatever stuff I did/do for mods (of whatever platfom) without my permission, things that I create from scratch in my free time, out of passion and dedication (love?) for something that I consider a very serious hobby of mine, now that really pisses me off. To put it mildly, I would probably deck some people in our fragmented community.

There is something that goes beyond "laws" and "copyrights", and that is "ethics".
Unfortunately, it's getting worse everytime (IMO) and, at least through my net of contacts, the reason why so many prevalent modders have quitted the hobby altogether.

And in this regard of modding ethics, if there's any need to have a simpleton(ish) analogy to bring any sense into some of the hollow skulls voicing in these matters, here or out there, think of it in this way.... just because I can try to take your girlfriend from you, and mate with her like animals in heat, it doesn't mean that I should.

 

[Ben Lee]

I think a lot of people expect something for nothing. Its an attitude which seems common now, especially in an online context. Loads of people I know download films for free rather than buy them, same with music. Its slightly different than ripping content but not a million miles away. Its the same mindset.

One of the things that irked me in the past was that makers of rFactor content freely used assets from things like GTR2, GTL etc when constructing mods. However when it came to releasing mods, they would only ever do rFactor versions, and never release versions for the game they ripped the content from...

 

[Mapu]

can't agree Sodemo

can't expect things for free and nobody does unless a person is naive

it is a different mindset that people have when downloading or ripping off things

software copies, tapes and black market have been around before the internet came to life

difference is, it is more transparent or visible and therefore more accessible these days

Again: who needs lazy rip-offs when one has unlimited access to quality mods, like WSGT or EnduRacers? And Kunos seems to care about excellent content for AC as well. So again the question: who would care about rip-offs when one can put endless hours into quality content?

 

[eobet]

Just butting in with a personal opinion:

If a sim comes with laser scanned tracks, it's safe to say that I will never, ever install a 3rd party real world track that doesn't use a laser scanned surface. I'd rather wait for the developers to release them, and pay the DLC price. I mean, why race on something that doesn't live up to the full quality the sim is capable of?

However, if someone builds more Stunt Car Racer like tracks, or say Dinosaur Canyon like tracks, I'm all for having some fun on such creations.

 

[Mapu]

oh I am sorry to say that but that's kind of narrow minded... why be so harsh and self-restrict yourself?

does that mean for instance, when Indianapolis as a laser scanned track will never be released, you'll never grab a well made mod with attention to detail by some other person who put their passion into it? And just to say, this would disqualify historical tracks all the same.

I can only think of the excellent Le Mans tracks released by this modding group http://www.virtua-lm.com/lemans/ It's would be a real shame if you give them a pass for example since you'll miss out on a great sim-racing experience!

 

[eobet]

I guess because iRacing raised the bar for authenticity, and then there's that Silverstone video of the Lotus in Assetto Corsa...

But I'm all for indies! Nearly every gaming purchase last year was small indies and Kickstarters. The bar keeps getting raised, though...

 

[DewCrew88]

Not the mention the hypocrisy of people accepting such mediocre content. By doing this we’re sending a clear message to the publishers and developers out there and it’s not one I think we want to send.

But you see thats just your opinion that it's mediocre, plenty of people have been enjoying what you perceived as mediocre. If you find it mediocre dont play it.

I expected name calling, particularly from those with an irrational hatred of a particular sim, rather amusing to see them drawn to it like a moth to a flame.

The air of superiority of the sim racing world amuses me. Why dont you like what I like? You must be irrational and hater. This inflated sense of importance that people get from creating long winded posts and portraying themselves as level headed and everyone else not is just about as old as the hate everything always crowd.