Hoping this is not a sign of things to come

Like most other virtual racers I eagerly awaited the release of Assetto Corsa and purchased it the day it was released. I was stunned by how polished it was as an alpha/beta/early access game and enjoyed not only the superb visuals but the crisp believable handling of the cars as I threw them around the laser scanned tracks. As each week went by I looked forward to the next batch of fortnightly content and was happy to see each new car and track was crafted as well as the last. Not even the silly bickering on the Steam forums over whose game was better could dull my enthusiasm or the banal criticism’s by the console gamers because you couldn’t ‘pimp’ your car with gaudy body-kits like Forza Motorsport or that the game didn’t already have 1000 cars like Gran Turismo. Each new announcement via their web-site or Facebook page brought more excitement – a new manufacturer license, a laser scanned Nordschleife – the future looks bright…

Then it happened. The first quick and dirty conversion quite literally ripped from another game. News spread and this track suddenly became the hot topic, the ‘must have’ despite it being taken warts-and-all from a game released nearly 10 years ago. Rather than herald this new ‘mod’ it left me despairing for the racing sim community. While many virtual racers and racing simulation sites rightly shunned discussion of this ‘rip’ there were many more making asinine excuses for the author essentially taking this work without permission and grafting it into a new sim. Theft is theft no matter if you ‘get away with it’ or not or even that you give it away freely. It reminded me of rFactor and how when it was released it showed so much promise. For months we saw 3d meshes being shown by talented mod makers working their magic on new cars and tracks made from scratch.

It all seemed so exciting and then conversion tools reared their ugly heads. All of a sudden sites like rFactor Central were awash with poorly ripped work from Grand Prix Legends, Geoff Crammonds Grand Prix 4 among others. Far from pushing the genre forward it felt like we were now going backwards. The same racers who argued over the radius of a hairpin in Simbin’s rendition of Macau were suddenly silent when rFactor became awash with low poly conversions of 10 year old games complete with poorly defined racing surfaces, low resolution textures and cardboard cut-out tree’s and track side objects which screamed ‘FAKE’ as you sped past them. Questionably legal content appeared and then disappeared from the net as lawyers and mod makers played cat and mouse.

Is this really where we want to go with Assetto Corsa? - A step backwards porting generations old content complete with all their imperfections into a next gen simulation? There was a ‘gold rush’ in rFactor when the conversion tools appeared to be ‘the first’ to bring a popular track to rFactor, be it Spa or Brands Hatch for example so why would someone spend time carefully building a track from scratch when others are just ripping it from another game and fudging it into this new sim. Have our expectations really been lowered so far that we’d accept the grave robbing zombification of old content like this?
 
The guys who grew up with racing games have now moved on, started families, had kids... etc... Where the current breed of racers, all they know is DLC and poor marketing tactics that claim a car that traction rolls at low speeds is the best sim car ever.

I remember when EA put out free weekly DLC for NFS High Stakes, and there was one site that had the entire MCO car roster available for NFS III (or was it High Stakes also?) I believe. And again, nobody cared and business continued as normal and nobody got the pants sued off them and people just enjoyed whatever was put in the dowloadn section that day. Now, we can't even post setups to "illegal" tracks without the thread being deleted and another thread about the legality of a random track from RBR being converted for AC blowing up into a 12 page firestorm.

Not to mention the idiots who claim AC is broken because a car with gigantic turbo lag and garbage tyres from the 90's is slower than their Ford Focus ST. Or the idiots who truly believe the Nordschleife is a "hotlapping-only" track because when they tried it in PGR 3 five years ago they spun out and were called a n00b by some stoner on Xbox Live using a leaderboard car.

I love this post, there is no reason for any of this to be going on. Where did the love of the game go? Why do we have to be in the moral high ground for or superior to someone else to enjoy AC and mods together.
 
Why are these allowed? They fall under the same category as Joux Plane. Content converted from one game to another without authorization.
I can't comment on most of those, but GP79 was originally a scratch made rF1 mod, and not a prior conversion. It was converted to rF2 with permission from the original authors, and work is going on to make sure it takes full advantage of the new features in rF2.

So it was never ripped from anywhere else without the authors consent or knowledge. Hence how it passed the hammer test here, and on the ISI forums.
 
I can't comment on most of those, but GP79 was originally a scratch made rF1 mod, and not a prior conversion. It was converted to rF2 with permission from the original authors, and work is going on to make sure it takes full advantage of the new features in rF2.

So it was never ripped from anywhere else without the authors consent or knowledge. Hence how it passed the hammer test here, and on the ISI forums.

Was it not originally made for GP4 and then converted to rF?


Even the version of Monaco in the 1979 trackpack is just a GP4 rip with some of the modern chicanes taken out. I was around for the GP79 rF release and nobody was throwing a hissy fit over the obvious modifications to GP4's Monaco.

Or the texture update to GPL's Kyalami.
 
Oh, I didn't realize you were referring to the tracks too-- Those are separate in the rF2 version! :p

The readme for the rF1 GP79 mod V1.0 (Found at the end of this post) has a list of cars and tracks in it. Most of the tracks are cited as being conversions with their source, but the cars have no source cited. The rF2 version doesn't include those converted tracks, it's just the cars.

The other mods you've cited are published as conversions though, from what I saw of them.
 

Well, we do not know if CTDP have given permission to have their track converted, indeed.

However, let me quote Tim Wheatley.
We wouldn't stop you converting from rF1 to rF2, as long as it is not used commercially.

EA owns the rights to products made by ISI before that, so don't go there.

However, we always reserve the right to release a newer version of tracks you already put the time into converting... So consider that before converting. No complaints about you 'wasting your time' doing it.

In other words, they do not have anything against ISI-made tracks being taken from rF1 to rF2, so this is not an issue.


Was it not originally made for GP4 and then converted to rF?

Even the version of Monaco in the 1979 trackpack is just a GP4 rip with some of the modern chicanes taken out. I was around for the GP79 rF release and nobody was throwing a hissy fit over the obvious modifications to GP4's Monaco.

Or the texture update to GPL's Kyalami.

If it was made for IndyCar Racing 2, it doesn't really matter, as long as the original creator(s) have given permission for the converting.
When it comes to the tracks, that is not something that is allowed. But I do think it wasn't as much discussed back then, as there was less blatantly ripped (illegally) material floating around on the big sites (also a reason why a certain forum grew immensely big in a short time).
Back in 2010 VirtualR took a major stance against conversions and such, now they don't really care. This is also a reason why it gets big. Before it was "underground" (so to speak), now it is pretty normal.
And the fact that more people are getting tired of seeing the exact same thing, they have seen, driven and driven on for more than 10 years, being re-released.
All these things added up, is the reason why it's more bickering about it now.

But ye, from the things you've found, there is (at least) two GP79 tracks, and (maybe) on of the listed rF2 tracks that's not a legal done conversion.
 
So lemme get this straight.

The head of RD comes around and says basically any conversion is the downfall of sim racing and how incredibly illegal it is, and in 90 seconds I was able to find a bunch of unauthorized conversions floating around in the rF2 download section, as well as a track used in an official RD series, that is an unauthorized conversion of a track from 2007, barely brought up to standards but used simply to diversify the amount of content this early into rF2's lifespan.

Isn't that the exact point I made a few pages ago?

And the fact that more people are getting tired of seeing the exact same thing, they have seen, driven and driven on for more than 10 years, being re-released.

This is what I've been saying for the past twelve pages. It's not the legality that matters, because there has been zero evidence that you're in any real trouble for converting content from one game to another (hell, NoGripRacing is pretty much 100% conversions in the downloads section). What matters is that GPL and NR2003 tracks are going to look like ass sooner rather than later, so it's time for modders to completely overhaul some of their past work, or start from scratch. That is literally the only logical argument against conversions because mods are illegal by nature.
Here's to more RBR tarmac stages!
 
So lemme get this straight.

The head of RD comes around and says basically any conversion is the downfall of sim racing and how incredibly illegal it is, and in 90 seconds I was able to find a bunch of unauthorized conversions floating around in the rF2 download section, as well as a track used in an official RD series, that is an unauthorized conversion of a track from 2007, barely brought up to standards but used simply to diversify the amount of content this early into rF2's lifespan.

Isn't that the exact point I made a few pages ago?

You was able to find 5 tracks, and one car mod, where there is only one track there might be question mark with.
When it comes to the car, it was publicly announced on the ISIforums, and they do shut down non-legal stuff there. It is up. Which would lead to the conclusion that rF1 - ISI content also might be converted.
Conversions itself isn't illegal. Conversions without permission, is.

And the fact that more people are getting tired of seeing the exact same thing, they have seen, driven and driven on for more than 10 years, being re-released.

This is what I've been saying for the past twelve pages. It's not the legality that matters, because there has been zero evidence that you're in any real trouble for converting content from one game to another (hell, NoGripRacing is pretty much 100% conversions in the downloads section). What matters is that GPL and NR2003 tracks are going to look like ass sooner rather than later, so it's time for modders to completely overhaul some of their past work, or start from scratch. That is literally the only logical argument against conversions because mods are illegal by nature.
Here's to more RBR tarmac stages!

The fact that I do have mates that are, well, what can I say, doing shady business with certain kind of stuffs that can give a huge profit, but also is far from legal, it doesn't make what they do legal, even though they don't get caught, and getting in trouble.
I seem to remember, somewhere in the past, FIRST (now iRacing) taking legal action about some NR2003 modders. And they still own the rights to at least NR2003, and seemingly from the mail I've gotten, all the older Papyrus games as well. They seem to be the ones who might take legal action against these things.

That you don't get in trouble, doesn't mean it's not illegal - I can make hundreds on non-simracing related examples, but that would be way OT.
As I've said, you don't have to be on sites that tries it very best to not have any of these things on the site, it is your choice.
 
I seem to remember, somewhere in the past, FIRST (now iRacing) taking legal action about some NR2003 modders. And they still own the rights to at least NR2003, and seemingly from the mail I've gotten, all the older Papyrus games as well. They seem to be the ones who might take legal action against these things.

This is one of my favorite examples people use when talking about mod legality because it shows just how buttfrustrated iRacing's dev team can get about... well... anything.

iRacing took the modder to court not because of licensing issues (the mod was a small Group C Prototype mod with scratch made tracks, cars and physics, developed by Team Redline), but because they were afraid that the quality of community made content would surpass what they themselves were able to produce, and feared their future title iRacing would not be successful if the majority of people simply continued to stick with NR2003 as a mod platform similar to what rFactor became a few years later.

The legal documents are available for the public to read and it outlines this pretty clearly. Hence why there is a lot of bitterness against iRacing from those active in the NR2003 modding scene.
 
I think this thread has pretty much run its course.

These kinds of debates only serve to entrench people further into the views they held in the first place.
 
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DC,

Don't know if you sub @ iRacing but you're obviously not familiar with their prices.

iRacing's pricing structure:-
  • Additional cars cost a one-time fee of $11.95.
  • Additional tracks cost a one-time fee of either $11.95 or $14.95 (depending on the track).
  • If you buy 3 pieces of content (cars or tracks) at once you’ll receive a discount of 10%.
  • If you buy 6 pieces of content at once you’ll receive a discount of 20%.
  • If you own either every road OR oval car (plus any 25 tracks), every new car or track you buy gets discounted at 25%.
  • If you own all the cars and tracks, every new car or track you buy gets discounted at 30%.
So as you can see, your claim of 10 cars being close to $150 minimum is a little bit out (plus apply the bulk purchase discounts and you're well below). 10 x £11.95 = $119.50 less at least 20% bulk discount = $95.60.

PS. I am an iRacing subscriber. Last car released was the RUF (3 versions) for $11.95 (which I got 30% discount as I'm in the 100% club).

;)
120 or 150 it's still laughable. Doesn't change anything.
 
This is one of my favorite examples people use when talking about mod legality because it shows just how buttfrustrated iRacing's dev team can get about... well... anything.

iRacing took the modder to court not because of licensing issues (the mod was a small Group C Prototype mod with scratch made tracks, cars and physics, developed by Team Redline), but because they were afraid that the quality of community made content would surpass what they themselves were able to produce, and feared their future title iRacing would not be successful if the majority of people simply continued to stick with NR2003 as a mod platform similar to what rFactor became a few years later.

The legal documents are available for the public to read and it outlines this pretty clearly. Hence why there is a lot of bitterness against iRacing from those active in the NR2003 modding scene.

You did sort of miss my point. As far as I remember, FIRST even lost the case (or gave up, or whatever).

The point was about the rights, and that they could try to take them to court, due to the rights. The same rights, that prohibits others to rip content.
 
By the power of typing too much.... mechanical keyboard ACTIVATE!

@Michael Hornbuckle If we would convert the laserscanned Monza or Nordschleife of Assetto Corsa and make it available for RACE 07/rFactor2 you would still find it normal and download it without a hesitation?
Illegal or not in the case of GT Legends or Race07+retro, I totally would download it. But then I already bought AC and will buy lasernords. AC simply does not have the cars I want to drive. Until some suitable mod cars are released, the only alternative is to not use AC..... with exception of dicking around in any newly released cars for a brief moment. When suitable cars are released for AC I could certainly stop using rippedlasernords in GTL/Race07retro.

According to steam I have put seven hours into AC and it was last launched Dec 03.
The Lotus Type 49 is sort of interesting but I just do not want to race AC's cars. I bought AC for the future mods.
Do not get me wrong, I want to use AC I really do it is amazing; Love at first sight! I suggest it to other people asking about racing sims too.. But I myself just have an issue with the cars and that is sort of a deal breaker in my very specific case because I am apparently a very silly person.

Kunos still deserves my money and I do NOT feel ripped off.

Kind of like ETS2 without old american 8x6 trucks. I bought ETS2 East thingy DLC btw. Never played the DLC and I am not going to until I find a recent working mod that seems reasonably done.(have not run ETS2 since 2013.09.13)
Is ETS2 a good game? Yes. Did l like playing it? Hell yes. Do I want to play it again? Of course.. but with old american trucks. Most people do not care but this matters to me.

I guess by now most of you know I am an edge case scenario, and likely ignore my opinion. :p As you probably should.

That all being said:
If I did not pay for AC or lasernods, I might have some moral issues using the content in another game.
And it is true that once public, there are no reasonable measures to stop average guy from using it. Despite how some of you may be begging for things to be locked down completely, requiring submission of a DNA sample and request forms filled out in quadruple to use the content.


Any racecar that only costs the amount I have in my sim-rig is a racecar I would never get in.
I would!
http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/
http://chevettesonice.ca/
But then my rig is a high end watercooled unit with way too many parts. I look for sales and whatnot, but it still adds up over the years.
A fancy WC loop can easily run $400-$500+, and nothing good is under $200.
Just to be clear, I am not and have not been complaining about the cost of AC or lasernords.


The only way I can see things like tracks getting ripped is if there was a gap in the track data which had to be downloaded every time you played it. So every time you loaded the track the game would have to go off to a server to download portion 136 out of 2000 or something like that. Basically that would mean that the full track was never on someones hard drive to rip the whole thing.
Except people like me with terrible internet connections would have a problem with that.
And people would just wait for the rest to be downloaded, or patch over it themselves.



Assetto Corsa covers almost everything in terms of cars. Both street and racing. Both vintage and modern.
Almost, but not if you live in north america, south america, australia, etc.
I may not enjoy vintage australian mucsle cars quite like american models but AUS did have some pretty cool cars back then.

There isn't a deliberate focus on European content(what's the problem with that, by the way?), it is a necessity,
Fixed that for you. I can agree, even if I do not like it.

There is NOTHING in the sim world that comes even close to this for 35€. Others only dream about the 599XX and LaFerrari.
This I can pretty much agree with this.(except the Ferrari part)
GT Legends is an absolute STEAL at around $10 or $11 or whatever USD on steam though.
 
Why are these allowed? They fall under the same category as Joux Plane. Content converted from one game to another without authorization.

Great, you went through 1.6 million posts and found five tracks to try and make an example out of "the head of RD", again well done sir :thumbsup:

Allow me to reply: first of all aim at the persons that uploaded it as "the head" can't be held responsible for each and every content submitted to this site. We have our simple house rules and a report system that works great and after a notification (where is yours Austin?) illegal content will be taken down without a question, that alone should be sufficient and comfortable.

In this particular case its not illegal as its forward ported from the same game developer platform to a new one. These forward ports we also allow from SimBin titles to newer ones such as GTR 2/GTL tracks to RACE 07. Nurburgring from F1 2012 to F1 2013.

Backward porting (for ex from RACE 07 to GTR2) however we do not allow for obvious reasons.

This has all happened in good cooperation with the rightsholders over the last couple of years and we strictly follow their community outlines.

In the case of "Joux Plane" (which can be any illegal track really, but this was the first one) it would have been perfectly fine to convert it from Richard Burns Rally to Richard Burns Rally 2. But unfortunately this game doesn't exist which rules out a conversion unless somebody gets a clear permission from the rightsholder to make this conversion, in that case you won't hear the head.

Try again please as this attempt failed!

The mentioned downfall of simracing has to do with loss revenue Austin, you are smart enough to fully understand that message. However if you refuse to see that illegal and backward porting in general, plus plain piracy, eventually results in a loss of revenue it's kinda pointless to continue this discussion.

It would have been nice that the developers that have been crying off the record for years stood up and joined this debate but as always they keep silent (few exceptions) when delicate issues like these are discussed. Disappointing.

The Head out :barefoot:

561x401.jpg
 
I said it was very unlikely but if a company feels they have had their reputation or revenue damaged and can prove a case they may choose to do so. There are plenty of examples of cease & desist letters being sent to modding outfits, including the Porsche vs Enduracers sim racing example.

Unlikely yes, plain wrong? no

Interesting. I didnt knew about that. So at the end of the day those skins and car models at AC, these on RD, (any other AC car mods website) are as ilegal conversions too. For them car makers such as Porsche in that case.

I wonder how Porsche will react when they see the same cars brought to even more popular game such as AC, created by a modder. WIthout permission.
 
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Very, very interesting thread. I bet WMD/SMS are watching this with great glee. As I believe that is one of the reasons they are going down the "not allowing mods" route. But that's another story.

Long live the modders and long live PC modding.
 

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