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High/Top End Entry into Tactile Guidance Help

MariusWolf

Premium
I'm diving head first into tactile immersion so bare with me as I'm still combing through threads and threads and trying to learn and come up with a set up of my own.


This year as a birthday present to myself I purchased a SimLab P1-X rig and want to build on it with tactile and perhaps in the future add motion like a NLR V3 seat mover, D-Box, or P-Accuators or something. Again, I'm still learning what's best and worth the money.


I'm getting Heusinkveld Sim Pedals Ultimate+, Shifter, and Handbrake as a bundle. I'll eventually upgrade my G923 wheel to a PlayStation friendly Fanatec CSL DD wheel base when they become available (I want my wheel base to be PC, Xbox and PS5 compatible).


I have a self built water-cooled Intel 10900k with RTX 3090 connected to a 77" LG OLED TV with 7.1 surround sound Denon AVR-X4700H receiver that I also use for Movies/TV along with gaming (PC, PS5) and I'll probably end up moving the rig and couch back and forth between sessions of gaming and cinema.


Please tell me if this is overkill with tactile, if I should mix Buttkickers with Clark Synthesis, etc. For someone who's more casual than competitive with online racing, would two Buttkickers LFE and a NLR V3 seat mover give me the immersion games like Forza Horizon, etc would best output and all the other Transducers be vibrating overkill?


Game wise, I play Forza Horizon 4 and am interested in Rally games like Dirt. I'll mainly be playing Forza Horizon 5 when it comes out November 5th and Gran Turismo 7 when it comes out in March 2022 on PS5. I'll end up playing other PC racing games as well. But my interests are in the graphics/fun game play like Forza Horizon offers.


Is this overkill for games like Forza Horizon 5 and Gran Turismo? I've had a hard time finding information if the SimVibe and other apps work well with those games and tactile.


My objectives are to add on rather than to replace/upgrade down the road. So I would rather start off with the high/top end recommendations rather than the entry level products.


I would like to budget $1-2.5k at a time upgrade steps, example: Step 1 front and back tactile, Step 2 back of chair tactile, Step 3 motion to seat/rig, etc. Any help/guidance would be greatly appreciated. I'm in the US for parts/pricing but obviously fine with importing.


Step 1:

===Front and Back Tactile===

Front/Pedals

2x ButtKicker LFE @$300 = $600

https://thebuttkicker.com/buttkicker-lfe/


$390 Behringer NX3000D

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/NX3000D--behringer-nx3000d-power-amplifier-with-dsp


Back/Seat

2x ButtKicker LFE @$300 = $600

https://thebuttkicker.com/buttkicker-lfe/


$390 Behringer NX3000D

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/NX3000D--behringer-nx3000d-power-amplifier-with-dsp


Question: Would mixing/replacing parts of the above Buttkicker set up with Clark Synthesis TST Transducers be a better option?

https://www.parts-express.com/search?keywords=Clark Synthesis TST&order=relevance:desc


Step 2:

===2 to 4 Back Seat Exciter/Shaker Options===


4x Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 @ $23 = $92

https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-DAEX32EP-4-Thruster-32mm-Exciter-40W-4-Ohm-295-230


$220 Behringer Europower EPQ304 Power Amplifier

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EPQ304--behringer-europower-epq304-power-amplifier


$93 the t.racks DSP 4x4 mini

https://m.thomannmusic.com/the_t.racks_dsp_4x4_mini.htm


4 exciters on back of chair total: $405

=============

Or use instead one of these in stock Dayton Shaker Bundles for the back of seat:

https://www.parts-express.com/search?order=relevance:desc&keywords=Dayton shakers Bundle

=============


Extras:

I think with my set up a NX3000D is what I would need per 2 transducers. Unless there's a need/future proofing reading to get a NX6000 instead of NX3000D


$550 Behringer NX6000D

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/NX6000D--behringer-nx6000d-power-amplifier-with-dsp

==== Perhaps a Higher End Casual Approach Option?====
A few Buttkicker LFEs and a NLR V3 Seat mover to give immersion in casual fun games like Forza Horizon, Dirt, Gran Turismo, etc?

What would be a configuration you'd recommend? I'm trying to get immersion in the feel of RPM, speed, road bumps, jump landings from off road races, things along those lines.

Thanks for all the help, I have like 30 tabs open with different threads and set ups I'm referencing and I'd like to get some input with my ideas so far. I have a tendency to take a bigger financial bite into a hobby then I should initially. And I don't want to invest too much money into tactile if the games I'm going to play don't take advantage of the high end set up I would build. Thanks again.
 

metalnwood

Premium
Firstly, great list of tactile, I would love that list!

Here are my thoughts though.. The titles you are talking about you are looking to run on a playstation which I dont believe gives you the options for tactile that PC does. Usually when you see a list of equipment like you have it is being driven by telemetry with a PC application like simhub.

Thats where you are going to get good road noise, bumps, kerbs etc and I dont think you are going to get anything like that being driven from sound. Its a great list for PC but I have a feeling it would be a lot of wasted money to just be driven from game sound.

Re the next level V3, I dont believe that it is playstation compatible either. Either way, I would highly suggest that you dont go for it as you have listed pt actuator and dbox. Personally, closest to price is PT and I would go for that over a seat mover any day. The effects that software is getting to drive a platform mover is getting better and better and can mix with tactile very well. For example, engine rpm on the low end with a platform mover is really convincing and while tactile is great, something is lost when I turn that off.

In short, your list is geared towards PC simulation rather than console.
 
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MariusWolf

Premium
Yes, for sure I'm going to lose out all tactile on playing this on Playstation, which makes me think that I shouldn't invest so much in audio tactile if my PC gaming will probably be limited to Forza Horizon and Rally series.

I will most likely spend a lot of time in Forza Horizon 5 when that comes out November 5th so I'm gearing up primarily for that.

Re the seat mover/platform mover. I think $10k is a very large investment, but a $3k investment I can see doable and why the NLR V3 seat mover looked appealing, would you suggest something else like the PT Actuator or similar? Did you mention that it provides good RPM feel? I would primarily like engine, road, jump land and RPM feel.
 
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metalnwood

Premium
$10k is large, I made the SFX100 and the diy solution is significantly cheaper but I thought the latest pt kit was more ~$5k as in this link. https://www.sectorxsimulations.com/...actuator-kit-scorpion-series-experience-100mm

Possibly cheaper direct from PT.

For RPM, the seat mover can do it but it is by far best combined with tactile. The motion really helps when idling as your whole body is moving, its only slight movement, but a completely different feeling than the tactile when your body is subtly bouncing of the side of your seat, or when you bog down getting off the line and splutter. The motion gives you things the tactile cannot when the whole platform moves. Jumps and landings, well nothing tactile will beat the heave and the pitch for that. I find for road noise that they add together fairly well, the tactile for small random noise and the feeling from the platform mover of going over larger bumps, dips. Its quite a different thing when your platform moves at maximum speed and only dips 5-10mm but comes back just as fast. It really delivers a lot of convincing energy.

I dont have mine setup to be a milkshake so there is not a lot of roll and pitch but the heave effects are very effective.
 
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MariusWolf

Premium
I dont have mine setup to be a milkshake so there is not a lot of roll and pitch but the heave effects are very effective.
:roflmao: Point taken, NLR V3 idea is in the trash. Keeping my eyes on SFX100 but it seems like a lot of DIY overwhelming work and perhaps difficult to source materials in the US?

Regarding the travel length, is 100mm stroke enough for a nice heave and pitch for titles like Rally and Forza Horizon where there are more "fun" courses that might have a few jumps in them? Versus a 150mm stroke length?

If I rather pay a bit extra for the ease of "plug and play" would you recommend STX100 (even though it's DIY it's not that complicated?) Or PT-Actuators (100m Experience or 150m Super version) or D-Box? I know the cost is a major factor, but cost/benefit of feel, what do you think is a wiser investment. For example, Sim-Lab has a cash-back system where they apply your purchase price of the P1-X (€700) towards the purchase of a D-Box system from them (€8,700 - 700 = €8k, what a deal :cry:).

Again, feel free to be honest with me, if I'm putting too much money into something I might not get back the fun immersion response, if my play style is more casual/fun rather then competitive online sim racing.
 
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metalnwood

Premium
I have no experience with anything more than 100mm but I think for driving it more than enough. I know the guys that have more say its useful for flight and thats probably just for the pitch axis as the width of our cockpits is not a lot so we get quite good roll anyhow.

Then dbox, very little heave compared to other systems, I think the basic unit you quoted has 38mm. They are popular in commercial settings and aspired to by many sim racers in the past but it really seems that for guys like you and I the other options are better and less costly. I dont know anyone that has gone for a dbox these days over the cheaper competition. A number of people have replaced dbox with pt, Barry from SRG being a more visible one.

For the price difference you can add the nice tactile. and still be ahead of the game $$ wise.

Thats my opinion on the motion, cant advise you if the price is worth it for what racing you will do on the pc but if you were to spend the $$, dont do it on the dbox, again imo :)

PT seems to be a great solution for ready built, if you didnt want to build SFX but go a cheaper way there are kits that can be found if you look.
 
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Yes, for sure I'm going to lose out all tactile on playing this on Playstation, which makes me think that I shouldn't invest so much in audio tactile if my PC gaming will probably be limited to Forza Horizon and Rally series.

I will most likely spend a lot of time in Forza Horizon 5 when that comes out November 5th so I'm gearing up primarily for that.

Re the seat mover/platform mover. I think $10k is a very large investment, but a $3k investment I can see doable and why the NLR V3 seat mover looked appealing, would you suggest something else like the PT Actuator or similar? Did you mention that it provides good RPM feel? I would primarily like engine, road, jump land and RPM feel.

I had a past hobby interest in home cinema and to give you an example. When getting into console/racing sims I can remember experimenting as far back as almost 15 years ago with GT5 Prologue.

I was using a 5.1 receiver and an additional amp to power multichannel tactile installation. It was the beginning of a journey into tactile for me which became a hobby on its own.

Even applying Dolby PLII to some games and eventually having multiple 31 channel equalizers (still laying around) to give as much control of the frequencies for the different channels/transducers as possible. Now I was still at that point learning a lot about different makes models of transducers.

Very enjoyable tactile can be had from "game audio" but it can also be annoying in some aspects. To do this properly imho, requires the ability to best control the audio to suit transducers. It also requires different settings for some games or cars than others. So you need easy access to pre-done settings or on-the-fly manual controls.

The best approach I found was to duplicate the game audio output, In fairness stereo would be enough or 2.1. With this duplicate set, we run it through DSP applying a crossover and PEQ to modify it to suit the transducers we are using it on. Many games need the low bass (under 20Hz) increased but then some frequencies for certain sound effects you may want to tone down. We also apply a crossover to just offer the low bass we need and this eliminates many of the sounds/frequencies we dont want going to the tactile.

The main limitation of game audio is often the little control of certain sound effects individual volumes we have. Often buried within the sound menus of the game.

We also cannot just direct these to specific output channels as we can with Simhub. Now to be able to do this in a more accurate way, then you would be best with having spectral analysis ability of each channel to see exactly what audio is being generated to then know how to apply your EQ.

To do that is easy with some solutions that are not too expensive with stereo. However, if you wanted multichannel monitoring abilities and DSP control of say even 5.1 then yeah this needs a multichannel interface with software, a PC, or a tablet.

I ended up going full hog into this last year upgrading my own hardware (3-4K on audio stuff) as I want to have the best tactile immersion possible but not writing off game audio as some may do. Yet to be able to have it if/when I want it or to be able to mix it with tactile from Simhub. To give you an idea of my own extremes with this, I will be able to monitor 24 individual Simhub effects and 7.1 audio at the same time with the top audio plugins we find in the industry or with leading DAW software. I can then create my own output mix on the fly for any channel with full control of the audio.

Do you own an ipad or have any experience with DAW software?
AUM is another pathway with iPad and a compatible interface but is too small a screen to try to do multiple things at once.
 
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MariusWolf

Premium
I can always get an Android tablet if it helps, but I'm not familiar with DAW.

PlayStation 5 tactile is just one game, Gran Turismo 5 when it comes out, but I will primarily be on PC playing Forza Horizon 4 & 5 and Dirt Rally and some letter games using simhub or SRS or something similar.

I'm leaning towards upgrading to 4 PT-Actuators Scorpion S and including tactile to the rig.

What I'm wondering is if a 2 transducers in the front and 2 transducers in the back would be the best way forward into tactile. Or maybe 3 transducers in the back? A combination of Buttkicker and Clark's TST? I just don't know what would be the best combo.

Also of course the 3000D amp per 2 transducers.

I also plan on putting a hurricane SRS wind simulator on this rig.
 
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NetLawMan

Premium
Hi.
I started with a full transducer-based setup 4 months ago. I quickly realized it was complicated, required lots of DIY and tinkering, and still never felt like I had as an immersive experience as possible. Specifically, there is a lot going with a car. There is only so much you can do simultaneously with transducers before “competing vibrations” begin to melt together into a big mess. Moreover, my rig is in a part of the house we use for other things and I felt like it was starting to look a little Frankenstein.

Then I moved to a d-Box motion system. I feel it’s the best thing I could have ever done! I have a level of immersion I didn’t think possible. You simply can’t replace every movement with vibrations from a transducer. It is very discrete (just looks like your rig has 4 legs). For some games, it does not need to rely on the the standard telemetry stream.

The way to describe the feeling is subtle, nuanced and articulate. The three games I play the most are F1 2021, Forza Horizon, and Dirt Rally 2.

For horizon, it’s a blast! Just last night I was in Lego land, at the airport, and the kick I got out of going from smooth pavement to the knobby Lego flooring was hysterical! The feel you get when you are skidding around the corner is magical. I can’t say enough and can’t wait until Forza 5. Note that the only annoying part of dbox forza support is that the dbox software has to run on a separate pc. I assume that is so it can work with forza on console? But for PC users it is annoying. I solved the issue by just running windows in a VM on the same gaming OC that I run forza on. The rest of the games just run natively without this extra step.

In terms of cost, I would not hesitate to buy a gen 1 system used. You may be able to find them refurbished from an authorized partner.

Bottom line is that I pulled all transducers off my rig except for one, which is a Clark synthesis on the bottom of the seat. That plays the game sound. It’s a boost for music, and some games spend a lot of effort in replicating the sound of different cars , so why not emphasize that over canned telemetry vibrations. Also, it’s less complicated as I no longer need to run sim vibe or sim hub for tactile.

I hope this gives you an alternate perspective.

-NLM

Rig:
-Advanced sim racing as4 80/20 rig, plus 80/20 pedal deck and heel plate
-DD2 wheel base with various wheels
-Heusinkveld Ultimate Plus and v2 Hand Brake
-Dbox 1.5” motion system
-Motionhouse Wind System
-GT omega reclining seat with trackracer chair brackets (to give height and adjust seat bottom angle)
-Mini DSP + Clark Synthesis Gold Transducer (+ Earthquake Amp)
-Schitt Audio amp/sac and Audeze LCD GX headphones
 
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Hi.
I started with a full transducer-based setup 4 months ago. I quickly realized it was complicated, required lots of DIY and tinkering, and still never felt like I had as an immersive experience as possible. Specifically, there is a lot going with a car. There is only so much you can do simultaneously with transducers before “competing vibrations” begin to melt together into a big mess. Moreover, my rig is in a part of the house we use for other things and I felt like it was starting to look a little Frankenstein.

Then I moved to a d-Box motion system. I feel it’s the best thing I could have ever done! I have a level of immersion I didn’t think possible. You simply can’t replace every movement with vibrations from a transducer. It is very discrete (just looks like your rig has 4 legs). For some games, it does not need to rely on the the standard telemetry stream.

The way to describe the feeling is subtle, nuanced and articulate. The three games I play the most are F1 2021, Forza Horizon, and Dirt Rally 2.

For horizon, it’s a blast! Just last night I was in Lego land, at the airport, and the kick I got out of going from smooth pavement to the knobby Lego flooring was hysterical! The feel you get when you are skidding around the corner is magical. I can’t say enough and can’t wait until Forza 5. Note that the only annoying part of dbox forza support is that the dbox software has to run on a separate pc. I assume that is so it can work with forza on console? But for PC users it is annoying. I solved the issue by just running windows in a VM on the same gaming OC that I run forza on. The rest of the games just run natively without this extra step.

In terms of cost, I would not hesitate to buy a gen 1 system used. You may be able to find them refurbished from an authorized partner.

Bottom line is that I pulled all transducers off my rig except for one, which is a Clark synthesis on the bottom of the seat. That plays the game sound. It’s a boost for music, and some games spend a lot of effort in replicating the sound of different cars , so why not emphasize that over canned telemetry vibrations. Also, it’s less complicated as I no longer need to run sim vibe or sim hub for tactile.

I hope this gives you an alternate perspective.

-NLM

Rig:
-Advanced sim racing as4 80/20 rig, plus 80/20 pedal deck and heel plate
-DD2 wheel base with various wheels
-Heusinkveld Ultimate Plus and v2 Hand Brake
-Dbox 1.5” motion system
-Motionhouse Wind System
-GT omega reclining seat with trackracer chair brackets (to give height and adjust seat bottom angle)
-Mini DSP + Clark Synthesis Gold Transducer (+ Earthquake Amp)
-Schitt Audio amp/sac and Audeze LCD GX headphones
which mini DSP and which DSP settings do you use?
 
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