Help Setup Porsche GT3 Cup '17

[Makrelus]

Hey guys,

A little introduction first: i have started with AC about 2 months ago. First we had PC2 for a few weeks but it only got "serious" in AC. Platform was PC at first, but it was needed elswere, so for the moment it's PS4. Wheel: Thrustmaster T500R, T3PA pedals. ABS/Stabilitycontrol etc. settings: all factory

Laptime with standard setup is 1:31.06. I am not super consistent, +/- 0.5s is the range, as i sometimes make errors

Question: Quick drivers are 6-7s faster, which is a huge difference on a short track. Of course: i need more practice...
(This video one is just for reference. Apparently done with mouse and keyboard)

GT3 Cup Brands Hatch GP 1:26
He takes corners at huge speeds and brakes way later. For examle the long left at 0:29s.
If i brake that late i have two outcomes: my rear gets upfront because i havent eased up on the brakes enough. If i lift off the brake earlier, i don't make it around the corner due to understeer.

Usually i brake shortly before the last marker, go in to 3rd with low throttle, when the corner closes up i have to coast a little to prevent understeer and then back on the throttle again.
On vallelunga quick drivers take the first 3 corners at full throttle. On the second corner (long right hand with slight banking) i have to ease up a bit and coast before the apex or i end up understeering into the gravel. I don't see what i could be doing wrong on that corner. It's full throttle and not much input necessary.

So i thought my setup sucks. again back to videos which include setups. I see big setup differences but there are not enough setups to see a correlation.

For brands hatch, I reduced the height in the front. Felt a tiny bit better, but bumpy. As a test, i went back up, but this time even higher front and rear. No difference in the bumpy parts. I increased camber, because tire-inside are hotter than outside. Maybe a tiny difference, but i expected more.

I just want to make sure i am not missing something, like "...standard setup in AC is really bad starting point..."
Is there a good setup suggestion Brands Hatch GP? Or am i simply not good enough?

 

[Pawel Ziolkowski]

Default setup can do flat 1:26 no problem. You aren't missing anything.

In cars like the porsche you really control the bumps with steering not setup. You have to ease up on it as soon as you see bumps coming. The car should continue to turn tightly while jumping less and settling much faster.
If you really want to fix the bumps with "setup" start at the car selection screen and pick one with different weight distribution.

Druids (the 0:29 corner) is difficult, but you should try braking an turning at the same time on entry. Try moving brake balance 1-2% forward and steer only a little bit while the brake pedal does the turning.
Also outside lane as seen in that vid can be the fastest line through there due to bumps. You don't have to take it but trying to might make entry and exit a little bit easier as you will have more room.

In general these cars are designed to loose a lot of speed while still turning adequately. You can exploit that in almost all the turns on Brands. This is probably where you loose the most time, by slowing down too much on straights and not enough in corners (which also leads to slowing down too much near apex).

The Vallelunga issue i have no idea, T2 is easy flat in default setup. It might be just inconsistent turn in point. I see people lift instinctively to have full confidence the car will turn even when it does not need it.
There are a few special tricks a driver can do to gain grip in that corner but none are needed really, just turn with confidence.
You could try upload a replay (file or to youtube) where you go off while trying it flat out a couple of times. It should be much easier to give tips that way.

 

[Makrelus]

@Pawel Ziolkowski Thanks for the detailed reply!

Druids (the 0:29 corner) is difficult, but you should try braking an turning at the same time on entry. Try moving brake balance 1-2% forward and steer only a little bit while the brake pedal does the turning...
...In general these cars are designed to loose a lot of speed while still turning adequately.

I have tried to avoid exactly that, as i thought i felt it quickly loose control and have less braking grip. but it makes sense the way you describe it. i guess i have to trail brake more.
Do you mean moving brake bias 1-2% on this corner in particular and then back, or leave it for the whole course?

You could try upload a replay

I will try, but im having a hard time with the PS4 to find those functions. I can't even find my laptimes... have to move back to PC as soon as possible...

 

[Pawel Ziolkowski]

I think the cup don't have brake in cockpit brake balance adjustment (at least not on PC), and in general the BB change will help for every corner on that track.

Also replays on PS4 lol... yeah.
Anyways i got an idea. Since most hotlaps will go easy flat there most drivers take a high line that is closer to the limit than should be (helps being consistent but is probably hard to copy for somebody slower). So i'll try the lowest grip i can get through there flat out, on a proper line. And you can try comparing that to your own.

ended up at 90% grip (old track surface setting), also pls excuse the telemetry apps for setting up cars, forgot to close them.

The key is probably turning early enough to compensate for a brief stall in cornering as the car falls into the cambered portion of the track. Plus touching the inside kerbs also pulls the car to the inside too.

 

[Makrelus]

thanks a lot for the time you take!!

What do you mean by „try to get the lowest grip“?
I see you turn in quite quickly. i havent tried vallelunga today, but just from intuition, i suspect upon such an input, my front would go straight, but yeah, your video is proof it works .

i took a few laps on brands hatch this evening. i really have a hard time going in the turns braking. the car feels very unstable. my back starts sliding and its super hard to catch. sometimes i manage by braking and throttle at the same time.
i noticed that i don‘t trailbrake as smooth as i thought. i have to work on that.
my pedals don‘t have resitance. this doesn‘t help either...
i‘ll try some more tomorrow

 

[Pawel Ziolkowski]

What do you mean by „try to get the lowest grip“?

I mean in "optimum" grip conditions people take a wide line that does not look remarkable if you look at youtube hotlaps (you can take whatever line there and be "ok" if you are fast). But since you are struggling I lowered the track grip by a lot to work really hard to get it to stick flat out - to be in a similar to your situation, so you might find it easier to compare. (especially stuff like turn in point, steering angle etc).

edit: actually maybe you changed the track grip and forgot about it, and that's the reason you cant go flat? (no idea where the setting is on console)

i took a few laps on brands hatch this evening. i really have a hard time going in the turns braking. the car feels very unstable. my back starts sliding and its super hard to catch. sometimes i manage by braking and throttle at the same time.
i noticed that i don‘t trailbrake as smooth as i thought. i have to work on that.
my pedals don‘t have resitance. this doesn‘t help either...
i‘ll try some more tomorrow

Yeah brake setup is quite important here. You might want to try tweaking the brake gamma (it should be somewhere in control options). Generally less gamma = more control at high brake forces, and more gamma better control when coasting. On proper hardware 1-1.6 I'd consider a normal range, and i have a hunch that console might have like 2.2 which could be much too high.

Another thing about this car is that it likes for driver to unwind the steering after initial turn sometimes. This could help in trailbraking: so have the car on the brakes, turn in and immediately back off the steering by half. Then if it understeers apply more/less brakes (depending on if you went in too slow or too fast). After that it's practice practice practice .

 

[Makrelus]

i am still at it, but here is a quick onboard of the vallelunga curve. all standard setup.
what happens when i go full throttle:
full throttle
i start to add steering input because i feel the slip angle is widening up even before the apex. if thats a correct thing to say.

and more or less how i manage to go through:
coasting

 

[Kek700]

Pawel is considerably more knowledgeable than I.

You did not use the very edge of the track, you turned in too early, and not with enough commitment, so you ended up taking a late apex.
id like to see Pawel take on it, I may learn something.

your replay quality is not good.

 

[Makrelus]

my replay quality is due to filming the screen with my phone. i don‘t have the nerves to fiddle with my ps4 to extract a replay. sorry for that . ill try later.

@Kek700 are you talking about not using the left edge before the corner, or the inside of the corner? or both?
i don‘t use the inside because i cant get in really. the car won‘t turn in more. if i want to go closer i have to go earlier, but then i slip off again.

here i try turning in later, and on 2 and 3 with more commitment.
1 later turn in
2 later turn in
3 later turn in

regarding track grip: there is not much you can do on ps4. track is on „optimum“, air tenp 26 degrees.

 

[Kek700]

That first turn is where the bite from the tyres is most aggressive, if done in sync with the front brakes, whips the car in, not as aggressive with no application of brakes , but still will have good bite.
Sounds easy, but getting it all done exactly right, in the right proporsions, require good feel.
you are trying to get the slip angle of that particular tread to work for you 100 percent through out the cornering phase.

Your coasting video you do not have the speed to absorb all the front grip, therefore you have enough grip left to keep turning the car in enough so that you are not running a early apex.
( look at your steering input between coasting and power )
A 911 has a tendency to push the front into understeer, so I am assuming the first video is car under full power plus not using all of the track plus not turning in fast enough plus turning too
late. ( video quality may have, turning in too eabe a not turning quick enough, i could not make to much out looking at video )

will look at your other vids

I am like you a relative beginner Pawal is so much better than me at this malarkey

 

[Kek700]

Your turning in too late, I will run the car at this circuit and see which camp I am in.

Well it is not easy, but even old me was flat out second lap.

I am nowhere as aggressive as Pawel, but I can see me using the tyres slip angle much better than you are. constantly looking for maximum bite from the front, because I am not as aggressive as Pawel my turn in is not as good, but because I am working the slip angles of the tyres I can still get enough mid corner grip not to run out of road.

Pawel turns in at the end of the fence reasonably same as I do.

You really need good video to make all this easier.

 

[Pawel Ziolkowski]

@Makrelus Nice, good videos.
In the first one you start the corner on the inside part of the track. The cambering in that corner is strong, but not that strong to pull you all the way. You have to start from the leftmost edge of the track.

For the "late apex 1"video, if you were half a cars width to the left when entering the corner, you would not be half a car off on the exit. Or similarly if you turned in earlier to be half a car closer to the inside, you again clear the corner no problem. And when you combine the two it should be easy sailing.

Also don't forget that in this case 2/3 of your cars weight is on the rear tyres. So when you turn in slowly 2/3 of the grip is just strolling around, so the sharper you enter the more total grip you'll have for the corner.
Remember that at higher speeds with throttle floored, unless you do scandinavian flick, you can't spin out, so be more confident.

Normally i would not recommend having corner entry markers on the outside, but in this case maybe try creating one for yourself (last skidmarks for exmple) and try earlier or more aggressive entries from that point. Then when you get a hang on driving flat there switch to looking at apex instead.

regarding track grip: there is not much you can do on ps4. track is on „optimum“, air tenp 26 degrees.

Console should have roughly the same grip as PC, but it does feel like you have a little less grip, maybe it's you not turning the steering enough (90° should be enough) but i'd also check if you had correct pressures and at least the outside tyres hot (green). It's definitely not enough to prevent you from going flat but looks like it will be more difficult.

 

[Makrelus]

@Kek700 thats my problem, i can´t find that bite. or let´s say i cannot reproduce it at my desire. i am curious to see/read how you handle it.

@Pawel Ziolkowski i think i get it now. I am not precise enough yet to fully use the track (yoúll see in the video below). I often leave some space left or righ out of fear touching the grass. On one of my vallelunga videos i almost make it and as you say, the bit thats missing ad the end is the one i misplace at the beginning.

i don’t quite understand why i have more total grip if i turn in sharper. I see that it works, but i learned that grip needs a bit of time to build up so inputs should come smooth. Now i see that it doesn’t apply here. Is it because the center of gravity shifts more to the front due to higher resistance of the loaded outside front wheel?
i definitely don’t turn in 90°. To me, it feels impossible to do that and keep a controllable car
but this seems to be my next lesson.

again thanks so much for you guys to help me!

At brands hatch i am down to 1:30.08. but i can‘t pin down how i saved that second. Need to practice...
Brands Hatch GP full lap


edit: ok now i am really confused... the video i uploaded is 1:30s long on my phone. How can i take more than 1:30s around the track? There is even the whole starting grid in the video. If track with a stopwatch my laptime is round 1:24?? Is the replay speeded up? I should go to bed...

 

[Kek700]

You have to get the point we’re you turn in at high speed right, you do not need to force the car.
It just makes the whole process faster and funnily enough easier to control.
( for some )

loading builds up, weight transfer builds up, you want the grip at the most optimum time, that’s why you get so much grip at that point, before that opportunity is lost.
Some weight, some load, 4 or 5 deg of tyre slip, after this grip is going fast but the cars trajectory is on your side.

I do not do this, I turn in slow, but at the right point relative to the speed, then I work the tyres slip angle to try and keep the tyre working at its best through out all the corner, by the time there is not much grip left I have now got the corner exit right.

you could say the first third of the corner I am trying to use the cars tyres to their best advantage, the second third I am trying to sort the exact entry to the apex,
the last third I am setting the car up to accelerate out of the corner.

you are probably from what I have observed, turning to early or late, then not working the tyres to give max grip at the most important time, this is always changing as weight builds up to near max plus tyres are starting to load up too, it’s difficult to explain without getting too detailed, plus I am not completely convinced that my explanation is completely correct, there are quite a few other factors that enter into it all.

( your car could be setup completely wrong for a start )

there are so many people who are sooo much better than me, but that is rightly or wrongly this is how I see it. Until someone points out the errors of my way.

I am a very average mid fielder, I can manage a very low 1-27.01 at brands in the 911 cup to give you a relative target. All setting at normal, track at 29deg, optimum road surface.

 

[Kek700]

You can use AC replay, grab the bit you want, then put it into drop box or equivalent, then post the link here.

 

[Pawel Ziolkowski]

i don’t quite understand why i have more total grip if i turn in sharper. I see that it works, but i learned that grip needs a bit of time to build up so inputs should come smooth. Now i see that it doesn’t apply here. Is it because the center of gravity shifts more to the front due to higher resistance of the loaded outside front wheel?

Yeah smooth is fast as they say, but that applies to shifting weight around when the car is on the limit already. For example when you move from full braking to cornering. The point here is two fold: 1) ideal line requires smooth transitions to follow as the line is smooth itself. 2) doing aggressive inputs can lead to cancelling some of the previous work done or just using the grip inefficiently (like walking in a saw pattern will always be longer than a straight line kind of efficiency).

But you can note that whenever you start the braking, you never "go easy" it's always slam as fast as possible to get to the limit of grip quicky. In this case there is no braking zone, but you still want to reach limit of grip fast. Now this isn't exactly how you'd normally want to approach flat out corners, but this case is pretty special so im just gonna leave it at that.

As for the video, how much rotation does your steering wheel have? fells a bit small. Porsches are notoriously tricky with oversensitive steering.

0:30 your initial braking was good, but way to early. Don't aim for the inside kerbs on entry, they are there for an overtaking car, but normal line should be quite a bit more outward. Aim to brake so that you end up in the middle of the track and work from there. And if you ever have to lift and then reapply brakes it means a lot of time can be gained by braking later.

0:55 also a tip here: unwind the steering as you pass the apex. The harder you push the car there the more unstable it gets there. Unwinding the steering allows the car to settle much faster and ultimately turn better so you will be able to take much more speed there. (same in the following blind right hander).
To give you a perspective, when pushing hard there on a 1:26 lap im countersteering for almost whole length of corner exit, and the car is still turning well.

Rest does look nice. Just a matter being consistent and precise enough to push the car harder, use more of the track, brake later etc. It did look like 3-4 seconds slower lap than what the car is capable off so idk what's wrong with timing on youtube, probably recorded at different framerate than youtube uses.
Still it was a really nice lap! You didn't loose a lot of time in one place, or did something "wrong" etc. Keep it up and you will get better over time, it's a really hard combo.

 

[Makrelus]

I will watch my own replays mote often, it is very good to spot errors. I always thought i use more of the track.
on PS4, the wheel calibrates itself, there is no rotation adjustment. pedals there is no setting at all. I really have to go back to pc...

Thanks a lot guys. I‘ll get to it. I bet you have other things to do

edit: just found this: Wheel rotation setup
Sounds like a pain, i have to set it on every game start... anyway, what rotation would you recommend? 900, or 1080?

 

[Mr Deap]

Based on the footage... all I see is understeer as usual... The same incorrect transition in almost every driver ED threads.

When will you guys ever blame social media?

 

[Kek700]

What ever rotation you prefere, there is no advantage or disadvantage as far as I am aware of.
I set 540 deg in AC, I set 540 deg in my wheel memory for gt cars.

Sometimes vary it for other types of car. But generally always 540 deg.

 

[Makrelus]

@Mr Deap Don‘t worry, i blame social media for allmost everything in my life.
so yeah, that‘s what i am trying to figure out. How do i prevent exessive oversteer without coasting too much/too early.

@Kek700 i don‘t suppose it affects how quick the rack is, as that is managed by calibration and then by the game, but i‘m not sure