Heel & toe, is it really necessary?

[Stelios]

Hello everybody!

I know this might not be the suitable forum but ill post here since my main tests were done in Assetto Corsa.

I have been simracing on and off for about 5 years. I never raced really seriously, just for fun.

Lately i have built my ricmotech RS-1 with the triple monitor add-on (pimp my ride i have lowered the monitors, which you cant see in those pictures). My rig has made me a lot (and i mean a LOT) more consistent, even though i sitll have a 23" monitor on my left (instead of the other 2 x27").

Previously i was using the flaps or the seq shifter of my g25, never the H shifter.
I decided to learn to use the H shifter, which felt very natural to me from the very start since its the same as my real car, and with that learn some heel and toe, and try to understand the benefits of doing it. Using iracing (mazda mx5) and the AC tech demo i really don't find a reason to heel and toe in every downshift as many people do these days. I mean, there are huge possibilities you screw the downshift and i am not sure that it benefits that much concerning the risk.
In certain situations, i agree its required, especially when braking hard and the car is not in a straight line, and you have to go from 4th to 2nd for example, but generally, i think heel & toe is overrated.

Or maybe not. Maybe someone can help me understand better why heel n toe is better.
My test was only 1 hour long and the cars were admittedly slow, maybe it is more useful on higher powered cars? I dont know. But downshifting manually, when the revs were at the appropriate level seemed to do the job fine.

Thanks for reading and sorry for my bad English!

 

[Radek Zukowski]

If you brake hard and downshift agressively at the same time, without hitting the throttle you will lock the rear wheels. Hitting throttle prevents that, and if you use manual gearbox you need to use H&T to operate clutch, brake and throttle pedals at the same time.
So yeah, it's essential for most of the cars when braking and downshifting at the same time.

 

[Mapu]

manual gear box - heel and toe can be helpful, but training is needed until it becomes efficient

 

[Stelios]

If you brake hard and downshift agressively at the same time, without hitting the throttle you will lock the rear wheels. Hitting throttle prevents that, and if you use manual gearbox you need to use H&T to operate clutch, brake and throttle pedals at the same time.
So yeah, it's essential for most of the cars when braking and downshifting at the same time.

The amount of throttle is supposed to be as much as needed to do rev matching ? Or just hit the throttle a bit and you are fine? Does it also help the car with engine braking ?

 

[Radek Zukowski]

Yes, the whole idea of downshifting when braking is to shorten the braking distance, because the engine helps to slow down the car.
And yes, ideally you hit the throttle to match the revs, but of course I don't think a human being can match the revs ideally to the same amount. Usually it's more or less the same

 

[Stelios]

OK, thanks for the replies. I have noticed its a lot more work to do and can be tiring for long races.

Is it worth it ?

 

[Damien Wintz]

Downshifting while braking does not reduce the braking distance, it only reduces the time you need to be back on the throttle when reaccelerating.
The whole idea behind rev matching is to REDUCE engine braking, by revving the engine "the conventional way" and not letting the driving wheels rev it.

Anyway I think it is very beneficial only when braking, downshifting and turning at the same time. In straight lines using the clutch to progressively rev match is just as effective. When turning, you can easily lose control if you let go the clutch, so you rev match to have the minimal time with the clutch depressed.

 

[Radek Zukowski]

In my opinion it's worth it, it's also enjoyable

 

[Damien Wintz]

Anyway, for most race cars (with heavy duty dog box transmissions), it is mandatory to blip if you don't want to damage the gears, but I'm not sure any sim takes this into account. It's more like a long term effect, so short term using the clutch works as well.

 

[EIF]

OK, thanks for the replies. I have noticed its a lot more work to do and can be tiring for long races.

Is it worth it ?

I only heel'n'toe in older style cars like the DRM or Power and Glory mods. I don't have a sequential shifter and it feels wrong with paddles so I typically don't bother in modern GT type stuff. I just autoclutch and left foot brake F1 style. Like you say, heel'n'toe can be tiring and it can hurt my right foot after a while on the G27 pedals too.

 

[William Levesque]

I'll just add... If it gets tiring or hurts your foot, you are doing it wrong, especially with G27 pedals, which are very soft.

As for me, I find it harder not to heel and toe, LOL.

 

[Dinca Andrei]

Learn from the best....

 

[EIF]

I'll just add... If it gets tiring or hurts your foot, you are doing it wrong, especially with G27 pedals, which are very soft.

As for me, I find it harder not to heel and toe, LOL.

Im rev matching and it's keeping the car balanced so I'm doing it just fine thank you very much. The problem is I dont use footwear so the inside edge of the throttle pedal hurts sometimes, there's also too much travel on the brake pedal because, like you say it's so soft and it's a little further from the throttle than is ideal.

 

[William Levesque]

Im rev matching and it's keeping the car balanced so I'm doing it just fine thank you very much. The problem is I dont use footwear so the inside edge of the throttle pedal hurts sometimes, there's also too much travel on the brake pedal because, like you say it's so soft and it's a little further from the throttle than is ideal.

Have you changed the brake position to the right and the throttle to the left ? Shouldn`t hurt at all.... Do you have socks ?

 

[Dinca Andrei]

You can use something like this...verry light weight.

 

[Dinca Andrei]

Have you changed the brake position to the right and the throttle to the left ? Shouldn`t hurt at all.... Do you have socks ?

Yes there are some videos on how to do it.

 

[Stelios]

Hey Dinca, nice footwear, are they available in Europe? If yes, do you have a link ?

Also, i am going to do the upside down of the brake and gas pedal. My pedals are inverted but if i do that the gap will be smaller so it will be easier to press the gas pedal with my foot while braking !

 

[EIF]

Not an exact representation but this is basically my technique. I brake with the area highlighted in red and blip with the right side of my foot in green so I dont use my heel at all. Yes I use socks lol and I set the brake and throttle as close as they will go on the G27 set.. The main issue is sometimes the inside edge of the throttle pedal catches and scrapes the outside of my right foot when I have to brake heavily because of the amount of travel.

Something like simboots would probably fix it but shoes are too thick and numb the feel.

 

[Kevin Ascher]

Yo, rev matching is a basic skill for driving an h-pattern car at its limit.
With my ClubSport pedals it is no problem, but in the cars I drive in real life, I find the distance between brake pedal and gas pedal too big. It surely is possible, but it doesn't feel very comfortable.
What do you guys think? Does it work good for you?
I am talking about BMW and BMW MINI pedals in particular.

 

[Dinca Andrei]

Hey Dinca, nice footwear, are they available in Europe? If yes, do you have a link ?

Also, i am going to do the upside down of the brake and gas pedal. My pedals are inverted but if i do that the gap will be smaller so it will be easier to press the gas pedal with my foot while braking !

I dont know if this is available in all areas but in my country it is.
50 RON means a bit over 10 Euro.

http://www.okazii.ro/incaltaminte-b...-model-nou-2013-nr-40-41-42-43-44--a127824371