Have Your Say: DLC Culture, Has it Gone Too Far?

Ghoults

1000RPM
The issue clearly has two dimensions. One is the addition of dlc itself. The other one is how to implement it.

Personally I don't think having dlc is bad. If done well it can be used to make the game more accessible for everybody. You can make it an inclusive so that the content is smartly used to allow more people to race together. Or you can be greedy and force people to pay for every single thing that is used. Which will end up fragmenting your community.

But I think there are other pitfalls as well for dlcs. One is the season pass. You are basically buying this expensive pack of content without having no idea how much stuff you are getting (because you pay for it before you know what is included). The most glaring example of this is automobilista. 40€ for something you have no idea what the contents are. For a 25€ game. Just for disclaimer I have that content and I'd imagine it is good quality. But the agreement is pretty clear in all gaming. Season passes are bad idea. I'd hope we don't see it in sim racing anymore.

One other issue dlc have is that the people who end up paying the most are your loyal fans. I think ac does something smart when they offer pre-order discounts for their dlc. I'm not sure whether iracing does it as well. I'd also say never pre-order anything. But at the same time pre-ordering a car pack is very different thing to pre-ordering a full game.

Other dlc related thing are the so called fake f2p games. Gladly these have not been succesful because economically these games get very expensive very quickly. Obviously I'm talking about raceroom and simraceway. And I'm saying fake f2p because there is nothing f2p in those games. It is 100% similar business model as live for speed. You get the demo for free and you can then buy dlc packs to get more content. In all three cases the content additions (which are paid dlc in each case) are pretty much identical. Either single pieces of content or packs. In lfs for example you can buy an "s3" package for 12£ which is one track. In raceroom you can buy vrp at discount which is then this and then you try to outsmart the system to get the best prices and then calculate your vrp hoping you got it right and sneak towards the checkout and then come gloat on the forums how you got best ever deal despite being hundreds of euros into the game already. But it is cheap you keep chanting. Knowing the more you say the more true it becomes. But anyways both game studios have been through bankcruptsy at least once. Clearly not a good business model...

I'm getting carried away. Figuratively.

I'm also going to mention iracing quickly. Reading all what I wrote before you are probably thinking I'm going to point and laugh at iracing. Not at all. Iracing is expensive. I know it, you know it, they know it. And everyone acknowledges it. The best thing about iracing is that at least they are honest about it. They are not trying to trick their players to think the game is cheaper than it is with double money-game currency systems and complex discounts like raceroom. They are not offering pre-order packages for content you have no idea if it will come out or what it is (ams). And they even took the steps to make their system work with people who don't own all content in a sim session. Took steps to actually prevent fragmentation.

I think iracing are honest about their cost and the prices they have are in line with the kind of service they offer. They don't have big playerbase so they need to ask more money per customer. So they have monthly subscription and offer monthly service for it. Not just cars and tracks but competitions as well. I have absolutely nothing bad to say about their business model. I hope other sims don't really follow it because I don't want to pay that much money for a sim.

One thing I mentioned earlier was f2p. A true fp2 could be interesting business model to test in sim racing environment. Basically the game would give you free access to 95% of the content (the 5% being special one off cars for example). You'd need to grind it to get the top level cars. Or they'd make their money from selling purely visual stuff like liveries, decal sets, pit babe outfits, mechanic suits, driver suits, helmets... etc.

All that could work if it wasn't for one thing. The matchmaker. A f2p game needs a lot of players so that a matchmaker can work and put people with similar cars into races. Unless you are happy grinding against the ai. Nope. I don't think anyone would pay for that. Other issue for matchmaker is that if you put 20 people on a track they not yet driven on the you get chaos because people don't know the track. Maybe a scheduled racing style of thing like racing could work? Anyways a matchmaker with lots of people works great for fps shooters and world of tanks. But for a racing sim? I have big doubts. And paradoxically f2p games tend to be expensive as well. You are easily looking at raceroom levels of expenses if the game sells anything more than visual addons. = expensive.

In the end I think the best business model is to release a game then release dlc for it every once in a while while adding features to the base game. Make the dlc system smart so it doesn't segregate people. Don't do things like rf2 online subscriptions. That is a proven game killer. But if you are going to offer monthly subs then don't just slap it on it and hope "more monies flow into your offices from windows and doors" but design the game to support it and provide value for the players for that monthly sub. With dlc the value is simple. You pay for something and you get something. You know what you are paying for and you pay because you want it. Success.But for monthly fee you need monthly content. In racing sim that is going to be races.
 

Berniyh

25RPM
65€ without any sales, thats super cheap if u ask me
How do you get to that number?
If I go to the R3E shop and select the Premium Pack, which says "featuring ALL CONTENT currently available" I get a price tag of 90.66€.
Why people say paying for liveries is idiotic? You know getting a skin officially licensed is not for free, right? You are paying for the real skins in PCARS too, image rights costs money. Just because you can paint one does not mean a dev can release it without paying. People are just lucky livery owner is not going after them.
It's a ton of work to call every single sponsor to get their authorization
Well yes, still the price per car with all liveries is much cheaper in both AC and pCars2 (estimate for the latter from the different versions available for preoder).
And imo at least AC does simulate the cars in more detail than R3E, so that's not an excuse either.
To give you some numbers:
In AC, a car with usually 5-10 liveries costs approx. 1€ according to the DLC price/number of cars.
In R3E if you pick something like the Corvette C6R, they charge you 2.98€ for the car with one skin, or 4.38€ for the car with all skins.
Or 0.29€ per skin, which would add up to 2.03€ in total would you buy them as single.
So for 6 skins you'd pay twice what you'd pay in AC for a single car!

Sorry, there is no way to make this into a positive, really not. :p
 
'Using a loose definition of the word', well you define it for me then.
I already did. The gameplay is determined through mathematical models that represent the real world.

Flight sims recreate aircraft behaviour based on real world data and mathematical models. Racing sims do the same for cars. Space sims....well, very few of them actually do, hence why I said not all games use the term appropriately (look at Rogue System, Orbiter or Kerbal Space Program for good examples of space simulation).

Code that just says "is player in crosshair" isn't simulating anything because the real world doesn't work that way.

Edit: Anyway, just realised...what's this got to do with DLC?
 

Will Mazeo

2000RPM
Well yes, still the price per car with all liveries is much cheaper in both AC and pCars2 (estimate for the latter from the different versions available for preoder).
And imo at least AC does simulate the cars in more detail than R3E, so that's not an excuse either.
To give you some numbers:
In AC, a car with usually 5-10 liveries costs approx. 1€ according to the DLC price/number of cars.
In R3E if you pick something like the Corvette C6R, they charge you 2.98€ for the car with one skin, or 4.38€ for the car with all skins.
Or 0.29€ per skin, which would add up to 2.03€ in total would you buy them as single.
So for 6 skins you'd pay twice what you'd pay in AC for a single car!

Sorry, there is no way to make this into a positive, really not. :p
This is not about what one simulates or the other.
Now since you were smart enough to take the numbers, you should consider a very important one: player base. Daily peak players of RaceRoom x AC (since players in 2 weeks get messed up in RR due to their "free to play" base that gave them nothing good). Now extract from that number how much you expect to sell x how much it costs and there goes your final value. Not every shop can sell the same product for the same price. Basics of the basics. The less you sell the more expensive it has to become, you end up with no much room if you want to survive.
And this is only considering the product itself, not marketing or anything + other deals behind the scenes we are not aware of. There is also the fact that RR is licensing championships, wouldn't surprise me if that adds quite a bit of $$$ to the costs
 
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ETandK

50RPM
Personally I believe DLCs are here to stay, irrespective of what we as the consumer say or think, its just a good business model.

However saying that, we as the consumer must get value for money and not get the feeling like we being milked,

I dread the day for example when Assetto Corsa release V2 and all the content and cash spent goes out the window to start the cycle again, that's the down side for me.

This is where I believe the loyal consumer should benefit from some sort of an upgrade deal to acknowledge and reward those that have been contributing (financially) and staying loyal to the product.

But sure this is our hobby and its still relatively inexpensive (software) for the enjoyment and hours of fun one gets.

It must be a two way street between us the consumers and the software house, a mutual beneficial arrangement it must be............. :cautious:
 
Why people say paying for liveries is idiotic? You know getting a skin officially licensed is not for free, right? You are paying for the real skins in PCARS too, image rights costs money. Just because you can paint one does not mean a dev can release it without paying. People are just lucky livery owner is not going after them.
It's a ton of work to call every single sponsor to get their authorization
Plus, they're purely cosmetic, so you don't lose anything in terms of actual gameplay for not having them.
 
DLCs are supposed to supplement and improve the gaming experience of any title - the problem comes in when the main title has like 10 base cars of which 90% are just stock cars (slow, poor handling, boring, old) and 7 tracks whereas you get about 10 DLCs with actual competitive racing content some costing more than the value of the game or half the value and its only got 3 cars ?! I have to mention a game which evolves around trucking which instead of adding new maps to base game as free content it sells them as DLCs for upwards of $20 when the game is $14 WTF son? check base cars of AC and Project Cars then look at cost of DLCs altogether...
 
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Berniyh

25RPM
This is not about what one simulates or the other.
True, was just pointing that out because it could've been an argument in favour of the pricing.
Now since you were smart enough to take the numbers, you should consider a very important one: player base. Daily peak players of RaceRoom x AC (since players in 2 weeks get messed up in RR due to their "free to play" base that gave them nothing good). Now extract from that number how much you expect to sell x how much it costs and there goes your final value. Not every shop can sell the same product for the same price.
That is true, but keep in mind that at some point AC was smaller than R3E, quite a bit actually.
Yet the pricing of the DLC were always roughly the same.

Personally I think that AC is a bit too cheap here. I'd pay more per car/track for the quality they offer.
R3E is quite at the upper limit and I'm not quite happy with the quality they offer in some cases (both cars and tracks).
In many cases it's good, but I've got the feeling that the variation in quality is much larger than in ACs case.
I've just got the impression it's rather "mass than (constant) quality", something which I fear will be the case for pCars2 as well, we'll see.
 

Will Mazeo

2000RPM
The only time AC was smaller than R3E was at early access, after release it passed it big time.
R3E seems to be very small actually considering it is free 2 play and still manage to get lower daily peak players than rF2
 

Berniyh

25RPM
The only time AC was smaller than R3E was at early access, after release it passed it big time.
R3E seems to be very small actually considering it is free 2 play and still manage to get lower daily peak players than rF2
Then use Automobilista as a comparison. Brit pack is 19.99€.
Includes 3 tracks and 4 cars, although with the variations it's actually 8 cars.
Depending on how you calculate (not that easy due to the mix), you will end up somewhere between 1.4€ and 2.8€ per car, so certainly cheaper than R3E despite being even smaller.
 

FeltHat

3000RPM
Premium
Then use Automobilista as a comparison. Brit pack is 19.99€.
Includes 3 tracks and 4 cars, although with the variations it's actually 8 cars.
Depending on how you calculate (not that easy due to the mix), you will end up somewhere between 1.4€ and 2.8€ per car, so certainly cheaper than R3E despite being even smaller.
you are comparing pack to individual cars, ofc it favors pack
 
No you did not.
I spoke about DLC and other stuff, you are chatting about sims..
What you are doing is funny; you are just reinforcing my point about they are all video games.
I suggest you read my posts again. Here's a summary.

A sim can be a game. A game can be a sim. Not all games can be classified in the sim genre. What makes it a sim is using appropriate mathematical models from the real world to determine the gameplay.
 
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BenCollins

250RPM
Raceroom Racing Experience is too confusing. I have the free game from Steam and it seems ok, nothing to write home about. But this business of buying every individual car and track, when prices can fluctuate wildly, is just too time consuming. I've better things to do to be honest.

Tell me the price of a decent package and I'll buy it or not.

Same with iRacing. That sim looks terrific, but I don't have time for subscriptions or any of that nonsense.

My time is limited to short, regular sessions of racing, sometimes 15 minutes, sometimes an hour. There is no way I'm paying a subscription. Likewise, I am not spending hours to decide which individual cars and tracks to buy. Assetto Corsa is perfect balance for me and I have bought all their DLC to date. Likewise AMS, who despite having my money up front in the season package, still outdid themselves with amazing DLC, better than I expected.

The ultimate rip-off was Live For Speed's S3 DLC. one track (Rockingham) for GBP12.00, with the promise of much more. A promise which has led to nothing so far.
 

Berniyh

25RPM
then what about r3e packs? u can get cheaper cars than 1,4-2,8€
Yes of course, but the original comment I responded to was that some guy wanted to have all cars separate to which I responded that it's just more expensive per car …

So it really only pays off if you're going to buy maybe 5-6 cars in total (which I guess nobody will).
In most other cases you will almost always be better off buying packs.

Edit: also … if you're buying a car outside of a pack and then realize you want to have the rest of a pack, then you're still paying the full price for that pack.
So in the end you just wasted money because you paid twice for that car.
 

Kenny Paton

10000RPM
Premium
you're buying a car outside of a pack and then realize you want to have the rest of a pack, then you're still paying the full price for that pack.
So in the end you just wasted money
Wrong, you get a discount against any content you already own.
 
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