Upcoming Events

Weekly BMW races on Simracing.GP Other regular AC events on Simracing.GP Weekly GT3 Sprint Races on Simracing.GP Rookie friendly WTCR sereis Weekly rFactor 2 events

GTR2 Handling in GTR2 versus Rfactor?

Messages
6
Points
0
I'm curious about how realistic GTR2's handling model actually is. I understand these are race cars, so they're bound to have tighter setups and be more precise, but the cars, especially the HQ cars, rarely get squirrely and more frequently suffer from major understeer than they do oversteer. In contrast the cars in Rfactor's Enduracers mod, which runs on the same general engine as GTR2, feel much more lively--almost too lively, to the point that they feel unstable under braking and acceleration. Which is more realistic for GT cars of the early to mid 2000's?
 
Messages
1,257
Points
0
What is an HQ car?

If we are talking vanilla GTR2, the default setups are designed to be quite stable. You can make them less stable with setup changes if you want. Increasing the power side differential locking for example will increase sensitivity to throttle input. These cars were designed for 3 hour races and for gentlemen drivers. In general they should not try to kill you. If you want to see race coverage from the FIA GT 2003/4 seasons to get an impression of how they drove - just search YouTube.
 
Messages
6
Points
0
The HQ cars are the high quality cars that come with the 10th anniversary patch, and I've found them generally more amiable towards light slides, but as a whole much more stable than the cars in Rfactor and even the base game's cars. As a whole though, the cars seem to understeer much more than in Rfactor and oversteer is relatively rare, and the grip is pretty good, so I guess I was a bit confused by that and if that was realistic.

I was also actually curious about the driver makeup of cars of this era because, by and large, the cars were faster than modern GT3 cars, but they seem similarly easy to drive (relative to things like 90's F1 and whatnot).
 

Shovas

Premium
Messages
1,526
Points
2,102
What is an HQ car?

If we are talking vanilla GTR2, the default setups are designed to be quite stable. You can make them less stable with setup changes if you want. Increasing the power side differential locking for example will increase sensitivity to throttle input. These cars were designed for 3 hour races and for gentlemen drivers. In general they should not try to kill you. If you want to see race coverage from the FIA GT 2003/4 seasons to get an impression of how they drove - just search YouTube.

What is an HQ car?? Only the best upgrade to GTR2 in 15 years :) Get the HQ Mods or the 10th Anniversary Patch while you're at it, avaiable in the downloads here at RD.
 

Jempy

Premium
Messages
2,075
Points
2,182
GTR2 and Rfactor use the same engine ... but I really think their approaches were totally different.
GTR2 ( and Race07 ) maybe a bit too stable ( first due to the original cars they were created for as @David Wright mentioned above ) and Rfactor maybe exagerated in the opposite direction.
Not sure for which cars Rfactor was really meant at the start as .... ( even though I feel it was more meant for single seaters )

I began Simracing rather late with Simbin "games" ... but also drove Rfactor for a few months at a french league.... those were mostly cars from the Historic mod .... and I really felt that I was driving on dry track like if it was on a very wet track !
I was often present at Spa in those sixties and seventies... and really don't have the impression they were as slippery and as they were in Rfactor.

GTR2 mods also seem to be more stable than the Rfactor ones ( mostly mods coming from RF to GTR2 usually ).
With same cars I'd say ... the reality should be ... inbetween... less stable than GTR2 but less oversteering than Rfactor.
Only a real driver with those cars might give the real answer.
 
Messages
6
Points
0
GTR2 and Rfactor use the same engine ... but I really think their approaches were totally different.
GTR2 ( and Race07 ) maybe a bit too stable ( first due to the original cars they were created for as @David Wright mentioned above ) and Rfactor maybe exagerated in the opposite direction.
Not sure for which cars Rfactor was really meant at the start as .... ( even though I feel it was more meant for single seaters )

I began Simracing rather late with Simbin "games" ... but also drove Rfactor for a few months at a french league.... those were mostly cars from the Historic mod .... and I really felt that I was driving on dry track like if it was on a very wet track !
I was often present at Spa in those sixties and seventies... and really don't have the impression they were as slippery and as they were in Rfactor.

GTR2 mods also seem to be more stable than the Rfactor ones ( mostly mods coming from RF to GTR2 usually ).
With same cars I'd say ... the reality should be ... inbetween... less stable than GTR2 but less oversteering than Rfactor.
Only a real driver with those cars might give the real answer.

Yeah, Rfactor's cars feel like they're on ice and far less predictable, while GTR2 understeers relatively frequently. That said, and I can't believe I overlooked this, but that understeer occurs most when the tires are cold, which makes complete sense, whilst Rfactor simulates cold tires as sliding around, which is perhaps more realistic for older vehicles and non-racecars.
 
Messages
1,257
Points
0
Its is 99% the same physics engine in rF and GTR2.

Whether a car understeers or oversteers depends on setup. You can setup an rFactor car to understeer and you can setup a GTR2 car to oversteer. Understeer is a form of sliding - your front tyres are sliding when you understeer. Your rear tyres are sliding when you oversteer.

The major "breakthrough" with GTR2 was Doug Arnao got hold of some tyre slip curves for the real GT tyres which went beyond peak. The assumption/traditional belief had been that tyre grip drops off pretty rapidly after peak grip. The original GTR reflected this as did the ISI cars in rF and the majority of mods. However, Doug found that in reality,the drop off in grip after peak was very slight. This makes the tyres forgiving because you can go beyond the peak and still keep control.

The feeling of driving on ice can be down to this slip curve. Tyres with a sharp drop off in grip after peak might feel this way. Alternatively tyres with low grip levels can feel like driving on ice even if their slip curves are forgiving. I think the HistorX mod falls into this category,for the 60s cars at least.
 

Shovas

Premium
Messages
1,526
Points
2,102
Something to think about is that GTR2 physics development probably didn't get an update very far after release whereas rF1 was always improving during its lifetime, as is rF2. The last release of rF1 should be miles ahead of the last release of GTR2.

From what I recall of rF1, I think it had more in common with rF2 (by the end of its life) than it did with GTR2, from a physics perspective.
 

Shovas

Premium
Messages
1,526
Points
2,102
I don't understand the 'driving on ice' feeling you get from rFactor? Is that rF1 or 2? rF2 for me is the best at communicating grip.

If you want a feeling of driving on ice, try iRacing (iceRacing). I actually like iRacing and have an active subscription but whenever I come back to it it really feels much different than all other sims. Compared to all other serious sims, iRacing feels like iceRacing.
 
Messages
8
Points
16
Yeah, Rfactor's cars feel like they're on ice and far less predictable, while GTR2 understeers relatively frequently. That said, and I can't believe I overlooked this, but that understeer occurs most when the tires are cold, which makes complete sense, whilst Rfactor simulates cold tires as sliding around, which is perhaps more realistic for older vehicles and non-racecars.

When i first started playing GTR2 i felt that the cars would understeer a lot but i solved this by simply changing the setup because for some reason the default setup is set to be very understeery and slowing down on some turns cuz i was pushing the cars in corners like it was a f1 car, it also depends on what car class you are driving. i haven't played RF1 that much yet but to me doesn't feel much different really
 

Shovas

Premium
Messages
1,526
Points
2,102
From my perspective tuning FFB, unless you've got some tweaked PLR FFB parameters, you've probably got hard and soft clipping (when the wheel goes numb in high force scenarios). Hard clipping is at your wheel, it's at max force. Soft clipping is when in-game calculations overload the final force value at 100% due to mixing various forces.

All this can contribute to handling feeling 'off' in a number of ways.

I recommend trying this ffb mod (mine) with crowdsourced per-wheel ffb params:


Might give you a different perspective on handling.
 
Messages
114
Points
202
Yes, but basiclly the first step is a reworked physic, i like the GTR2 Reborn hdc + tyres + talent-files.
Very important to optimized the Inertias ! - z-coordinate - particular.
This is a complete ISI-Engine problem in my opinion,

And David Wright:
I heart for a lot of years that Simbin licenced the ISI-Motor-Engine-1 for GTR1 - GTR2 and rFactor get the ISI-motor-engine-2.
I realized of course differnent.
same cars, datas if possible (rF have more parameters to use in the physic and a other ffb-System)
rFactor give more feeling of the road and Suspension from the Car.
This is my main problem in GTR2, that the Suspension info is missing (Logitech G25) try 14 Years of ffb-Settings Freejrs - and SHO - own etc.
Optical GTR2 dont show the System-work (Open-wheel Cars - to realize), the Tyres go up-and down- yes only the tyres.
AdjustSuspRates=1 // adjust suspension rates due to motion ratio ( 0=enable, 1=disable),
Setting to 0 dont help (this help on any mods in rF, but than its important to reworked the suspension-datas)

Till today i am missing the track-surface behavior and ffb in GTR2 a little.
Possible that DD-Wheels - Modern expensive Wheels for Simulations, give better and more feedback.

P&G was on the right way - thanks to David Wright :) - and Friends.
 
Messages
1,257
Points
0
And David Wright:
I heart for a lot of years that Simbin licenced the ISI-Motor-Engine-1 for GTR1 - GTR2 and rFactor get the ISI-motor-engine-2.
I realized of course differnent.
same cars, datas if possible (rF have more parameters to use in the physic and a other ffb-System)
rFactor give more feeling of the road and Suspension from the Car.
This is my main problem in GTR2, that the Suspension info is missing (Logitech G25) try 14 Years of ffb-Settings Freejrs - and SHO - own etc.
Optical GTR2 dont show the System-work (Open-wheel Cars - to realize), the Tyres go up-and down- yes only the tyres.
AdjustSuspRates=1 // adjust suspension rates due to motion ratio ( 0=enable, 1=disable),
Setting to 0 dont help (this help on any mods in rF, but than its important to reworked the suspension-datas)

Till today i am missing the track-surface behavior and ffb in GTR2 a little.
Possible that DD-Wheels - Modern expensive Wheels for Simulations, give better and more feedback.

P&G was on the right way - thanks to David Wright :) - and Friends.

Yes there was the urban myth put about by rFactor fanboys that Simbin had ISImotor1 but its not true. ISI themselves confirm they licensed ISIMotor2. The rights to ISIMotor1 belonged to EA. ISI could not license it even if they wanted to.

Of course ISIMotor2 changed over time. rFactor received updates for a couple of years. New parameters were added to physics files e.g. to support stock cars. rFactor was also a mod platform, so some parameters which are hard coded in GTR2 such as grip loss with tyre wear are editable in rF. So by the end of rFactor development there are certainly some differences and of course, Simbin had the source code for ISIMotor2 and made their own enhancements (dynamic weather and dynamic track for example).

IMO the stock GTR2 FFB is better than the stock rF FFB but rF did have the third party option of "real-feel" which might be what you are talking about when you say rF has another FFB system. I never liked real-feel on my G25 because of the lack of FFB around the straight ahead and the lack of feeling of "going light" as you reach the limit, however it may indeed be better for track surface feel.
 
Messages
114
Points
202
Thanks David for reply.
O.K.
If i use a full convert track from GTR2 to rF, with same tracksurface parameters --> tdf File and good comparing physic of the cars, rF 1255g (my CD is from 2007 :) ) the rF Cars feels more direct and i find conclusions with my G25 also :) , that i feel the rear-suspension, when the back is coming, begin of oversteer, here i find a own multipliator system between bound-rebound slow and quick, tested on slow Open Wheelers.
Typical its not for P&G, because there are not a Open Wheeler Physic.
And till today i dont find a good result for GTR2.

rF Cars feels more comparative and the Setting with the Keyboard F1-F11 is better, than the System of Simbin.
GT3-Cars feels good for me with TC and ABS on low - very low (Blancpain Mod 2012 and Ultimate GT3).
At Open-wheelers all off,
o.k. there was Formula one Season with TC i think 92-93 and the benetton 1994 :) - possible this was a very good differential-principe and not unhomologation TC, this will be another theme -i think.

To have a quick step into a nice Racing-Game - my rF Mods are seems not to easy to drive in a AI Field of 100 % Difficulty and Aggression over 55 %.
Consequently GTR2 and of Course P&G 3.2 give more fun - to run quick and easy without frustation.

Without Realfeel (i have the same experience with you with my G25, in the past also G27 or Fanatic Porsche GT3) - good compromise would a % - Mixed, less than 50 % Realfeel and full ISI-Default-FFB, only on Mid-or Low postition, to avoid the "Faking Effects".

David Wright it is very nice, to see your Avatar and hear.
Because in nogrip, your threat about P&G was my favourit.

Best Greetings and nice driving
 

Durge Driven

Premium
Messages
2,866
Points
2,052
FFB steer force grip factor="1.00000" ( little mass and no grip )

Don't you change this ( lower) based on your personal FFB strength and wheel model
 

Shovas

Premium
Messages
1,526
Points
2,102
FFB steer force grip factor="1.00000" ( little mass and no grip )

Don't you change this ( lower) based on your personal FFB strength and wheel model

These comments should help clarify Grip Factor:

FFB steer force grip factor="1.00000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.2 to 0.6. How much of a factor the front wheel grip is on the steering weight.

Ideally, you want 1.0 for realism and only if you have to decrease it. Juls FFB Guide recommends this, too.
 

Durge Driven

Premium
Messages
2,866
Points
2,052
This is the guide ?

 
Top