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SGP GT3 @ Brands Hatch - Sunday 11th April 2021

Taj Johal

Premium
All I can say about your race is that when you got blue flags for me, it was full on pace flying by without you going off track or slowing down too much.
It was really dynamic and nicely timed, as I linked in my stream timestamp :)
Practise makes perfect :D

I'm sure one day I will take up your kind offer help with setups etc. but right now I'm being a stubborn engineer who needs to do know everything and do everything himself :)
 

JamKart22

Premium
Practise makes perfect :D

I'm sure one day I will take up your kind offer help with setups etc. but right now I'm being a stubborn engineer who needs to do know everything and do everything himself :)
Heard another quote on the RD podcast (I think) that "practice make permanent" - so it's easy to lock in bad habits if you don't know what you're doing ;)

There are loads of great content on YouTube about how to drive better and hence go faster. Easier said that done in my case!
 

random2k4

Premium
but just as I started to turn in, Stefan U decided to use the space inside, fair does, the door was open :laugh:
Raced Stefan for the position into Graham Hill Bend, he kept coming right, I kept going right, braking with one wheel on the grass is not adivsable.....

Yes, door was just too wide open not to push through. On the breaking zone for T3 I though I left you enough space to get behind me without a hassle. On the replay I didnt see that I moved to the right overly aggressive. If you felt I pushed you to much to the right, I am sorry, wasnt intentional. Again just thought you would just break a little earlier and sty behind. But as you said once breaking on the gras its bye bye on this track.

so it's easy to lock in bad habits if you don't know what you're doing
After 3 races at Brands Hatch for me and countless hours of practice, I changed my breaking habbit for two corners 2 days before the race, resulting in a new PB almost 1 second faster then my old one. And yes, watching faster drivers on youtube really gives you an idea on racing lines and potential breaking points and also when to release the break and hit the throttle again.
 

Taj Johal

Premium
Yes, door was just too wide open not to push through. On the breaking zone for T3 I though I left you enough space to get behind me without a hassle. On the replay I didnt see that I moved to the right overly aggressive. If you felt I pushed you to much to the right, I am sorry, wasnt intentional. Again just thought you would just break a little earlier and sty behind. But as you said once breaking on the gras its bye bye on this track.
I did look at the replay after the race but have since then somehow deleted it, so this is all from memory, I may get some things wrong.

Seen from inside the car, going up the hill into Druids you were on my right, behind Linus. Suddenly you moved to the left under the gantry right in front of me. I had to slam on the brakes and go straight in order not to rear end you. Was very annoying at the time, made me stubborn going into Graham Hill, more on that later :)

From the replay, seen from your view inside the car and also outside, it didn't look as bad but still not very cool in my opinion. I'm open minded about the move and I'd like to hear the opinion of other more experienced racers.
Would I have done it no? No, moving onto the braking line at the braking point is not cool in my book. Plus you were asking a slower newbie to have the reactions and braking skills of an Ayrton Senna, that's not always going to end well :roflmao:

So I did a switchback on you, pulled alongside you but you got better acceleration down towards Graham Hill and pulled ahead. You started coming right, I kept going right, ended up braking with one wheel on the grass, spun off. was pissed at the time.

But I watched the replay, again from your view and from outside it doesn't look bad and I don't think you did anything wrong. aggessive yes, but nothing more than a racing incident for me.

I should have made better a decision, the choices I had were:

a) be a gent keep going right and give you space, end up on the outside going into a corner, braking on grass.
b) stop being a gent and straighten up the steering to let you know you're not going to have any more road, then it would have been interesting going into the corner :)
c) get in behind you like you assumed I would, but I didn't want to, remember I was coming out of Druids stubborn and annoyed :roflmao:

C would have been the wisest decision, my race is not with the quickest drivers, my race is stiil with the track.
B would have been interesting and the most fun. But I chose A, the worst possible decision. Reminded me just as in real life, in order to make good decisions you need to remain calm :cool:

I don't take incidents where I end up the receiving end of someone else's action racing in a virtual world too seriously, life is too short for that. Besides I don't know what the other person can or cannot see on his 2d restricted FOV. or maybe the cat just jumped on his lap :roflmao:

the racing here is generally very clean but some of the open lobbies or even SimGrid on the other hand........

Don't take this long essay as a rant, just my viewpoint nothing more :thumbsup:
 
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Interslice

Staff
Premium
I did look at the replay after the race but have since then somehow deleted it, so this is all from memory, I may get some things wrong.

Seen from inside the car, going up the hill into Druids you were on my right, behind Linus. Suddenly you moved to the left under the gantry right in front of me. I had to slam on the brakes and go straight in order not to rear end you. Was very annoying at the time, made me stubborn going into Graham Hill, more on that later :)

From the replay, seen from your view inside the car and also outside, it didn't look as bad but still not very cool in my opinion. I'm open minded about the move and I'd like to hear the opinion of other more experienced racers.
Would I have done it no? No, moving onto the braking line at the braking point is not cool in my book. Plus you were asking a slower newbie to have the reactions and braking skills of an Ayrton Senna, that's not always going to end well :roflmao:

So I did a switchback on you, pulled alongside you but you got better acceleration down towards Graham Hill and pulled ahead. You started coming right, I kept going right, ended up braking with one wheel on the grass, spun off. was pissed at the time.

But I watched the replay, again from your view and from outside it doesn't look bad and I don't think you did anything wrong. aggessive yes, but nothing more than a racing incident for me.

I should have made better a decision, the choices I had were:

a) be a gent keep going right and give you space, end up on the outside going into a corner, braking on grass.
b) stop being a gent and straighten up the steering to let you know you're not going to have any more road, then it would have been interesting going into the corner :)
c) get in behind you like you assumed I would, but I didn't want to, remember I was coming out of Druids stubborn and annoyed :roflmao:

C would have been the wisest decision, my race is not with the quickest drivers, my race is stiil with the track.
B would have been interesting and the most fun. But I chose A, the worst possible decision. Reminded me just as in real life, in order to make good decisions you need to remain calm :cool:

I don't take incidents where I end up the receiving end of someone else's action racing in a virtual world too seriously, life is too short for that. Besides I don't know what the other person can or cannot see on his 2d restricted FOV. or maybe the cat just jumped on his lap :roflmao:

the racing here is generally very clean but some of the open lobbies or even SimGrid on the other hand........

Don't take this long essay as a rant, just my viewpoint nothing more :thumbsup:

It's perfectly fine and legal for stefan to return to the racing line there into druids once there is no overlap. Sounds like you have learned from it anyway and will have it in your head as a possible scenario in future, which is what it's all about. At the same time stefan is also taking a risk of getting punted to defend his outside but that's his decision to weigh up.

Btw not seen the replay so i'm assuming there was no overlap which is a different situation.
 
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jackdyson31

Premium
It's perfectly fine and legal for stefan to return to the racing line there into druids once there is no overlap. Sounds like you have learned from it anyway and will have it in your head as a possible scenario in future, which is what it's all about. At the same time stefan is also taking a risk of getting punted to defend his outside but that's his decision to weigh up.

Btw not seen the replay so i'm assuming there was no overlap which is a different situation.
Just to add a general opinion here Brian, I think his point is not one about rules, but about consideration from faster drivers for presently slower ones:

Plus you were asking a slower newbie to have the reactions and braking skills of an Ayrton Senna, that's not always going to end well

At the end of the day we are all people driving cars fast and if one feels respected, then one is likely to return that respect voluntarily and gladly in the future which is going to build a stronger club for all :)

If you you consistently get bullied off the track while you learn, then despite the rules, that is what your first port of call will tend to be too, when you yourself become a faster driver :cautious:

I mean human nature, unfortunately is what it is and reciprocation is an effective policy to curbing it.
 
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Taj Johal

Premium
It's perfectly fine and legal for stefan to return to the racing line there into druids once there is no overlap. Sounds like you have learned from it anyway and will have it in your head as a possible scenario in future, which is what it's all about. At the same time stefan is also taking a risk of getting punted to defend his outside but that's his decision to weigh up.

Btw not seen the replay so i'm assuming there was no overlap which is a different situation.
yep it's absolutely fine to return to the racing line but surely before the braking point? It felt like the braking point (gantry / countdown marker) for me on Sunday but I need to see a replay again to see if it really was.
And yes, his braking point could be later than mine :roflmao:

Stefan, was relying on me to be able to react and brake in time in the best case for him. Or in the worst case for me, go off track into the guardrails in order to avoid him.

Can someone have a look at the replay and tell me if I'm talking gibberish or not. Really curious and eager to learn now.
 

jackdyson31

Premium
yep it's absolutely fine to return to the racing line but surely before the braking point?
You can't move the car off the RL once at or inside the braking zone - you need to get the replay and check that point because if it is as you suspect - the verdict is clear. I don't have the whole replay or I would post it for you.
 

pattikins

Premium
@Taj Johal , I've had a look @ the replay, & I couldn't see anything wrong with Stefan's driving around Druids & Graham Hill Bend.

Just to add a general opinion here Brian, I think his point is not one about rules, but about consideration from faster drivers for presently slower ones:



At the end of the day we are all people driving cars fast and if one feels respected, then one is likely to return that respect voluntarily and gladly in the future which is going to build a stronger club for all :)

If you you consistently get bullied off the track while you learn, then despite the rules, that is what your first port of call will tend to be too, when you yourself become a faster driver :cautious:

I mean human nature, unfortunately is what it is and reciprocation is an effective policy to curbing it.

Whilst watching the contest between Stefan & Taj, I noticed another incident on the same stretch of road @ the same time :confused::cautious:.
 

Taj Johal

Premium
@Taj Johal , I've had a look @ the replay, & I couldn't see anything wrong with Stefan's driving around Druids & Graham Hill Bend.



Whilst watching the contest between Stefan & Taj, I noticed another incident on the same stretch of road @ the same time :confused::cautious:.
yep, I agree going into Grham Hill was perfectly fine.
and I was open minded about into Druids. Things always feel different in the heat of a race.

Thanks for checking the replay and giving your opinion/judgement :thumbsup:
 
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jackdyson31

Premium
@Taj Johal , I've had a look @ the replay, & I couldn't see anything wrong with Stefan's driving around Druids & Graham Hill Bend.



Whilst watching the contest between Stefan & Taj, I noticed another incident on the same stretch of road @ the same time :confused::cautious:.
Yeah absolutely Pat, that is very fair and I completely agree with the gist of what you are saying lol - I do and have owned up to a lot of poor driving that day - and indeed Linus and I have been sorting things out. Just to be clear to you I don't mind a race ban for my driving, as long as its the same for everyone. So fair does. I was not trying to say I am the perfect example of a racer. I was trying to support perhaps what might be a general feeling amongst newcomers.

My point to Brian and yourself earlier, which is a general opinion, therefore still stands. Although as I also just said to Taj he does need to look at the replay and be sure, which, you just did for him.

One thing I am very comitted to though is the well being of this club.
 
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Taj Johal

Premium
Just checked the replay (the one advantage of covid enforced homeoffice) , Stefan was absolutley fine going into Druids. Felt wrong at the time but it wasn't in reality.

Sorry Stefan if I caused you any stress!!!

Lesson to learn: remain calm make better decisions going into the next corner.

Thanks for the replay!!
now time to get back to work :D
 

jackdyson31

Premium
Oh, yeah I saw that incident going into Graham Hill, don't know they were, surprised no one said anything :D
No Taj, they did say something - Linus got in touch with me about it and since there are consequences in this life for screwing up another guy's race I'll be happy to pay for it so that I don't do it again.

Of course it was not intentional, I never realised I moved over so much on him, and I never saw him go off - but I did push him off so tough, I get in trouble for it

And in exactly the same way I had no idea I blocked Han for a blue flag further along after what you are referring to with your incident.

Stefan probably also had no idea he shut the door hard on you from your perspective, as he already said.

And I had no idea I blocked Stefan later, as I tried to explain in an earlier post

And Pat was just doing a normal thing pressuring me 30 seconds before the race finished (without waiting for the following straight for me to lift and let him by) when I thought Logan was a legitimate pass - but I didn't like it and I went off.

Its racing.
 
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RasmusP

Premium
I did look at the replay after the race but have since then somehow deleted it, so this is all from memory, I may get some things wrong.

Seen from inside the car, going up the hill into Druids you were on my right, behind Linus. Suddenly you moved to the left under the gantry right in front of me. I had to slam on the brakes and go straight in order not to rear end you. Was very annoying at the time, made me stubborn going into Graham Hill, more on that later :)

From the replay, seen from your view inside the car and also outside, it didn't look as bad but still not very cool in my opinion. I'm open minded about the move and I'd like to hear the opinion of other more experienced racers.
Would I have done it no? No, moving onto the braking line at the braking point is not cool in my book. Plus you were asking a slower newbie to have the reactions and braking skills of an Ayrton Senna, that's not always going to end well :roflmao:

So I did a switchback on you, pulled alongside you but you got better acceleration down towards Graham Hill and pulled ahead. You started coming right, I kept going right, ended up braking with one wheel on the grass, spun off. was pissed at the time.

But I watched the replay, again from your view and from outside it doesn't look bad and I don't think you did anything wrong. aggessive yes, but nothing more than a racing incident for me.

I should have made better a decision, the choices I had were:

a) be a gent keep going right and give you space, end up on the outside going into a corner, braking on grass.
b) stop being a gent and straighten up the steering to let you know you're not going to have any more road, then it would have been interesting going into the corner :)
c) get in behind you like you assumed I would, but I didn't want to, remember I was coming out of Druids stubborn and annoyed :roflmao:

C would have been the wisest decision, my race is not with the quickest drivers, my race is stiil with the track.
B would have been interesting and the most fun. But I chose A, the worst possible decision. Reminded me just as in real life, in order to make good decisions you need to remain calm :cool:

I don't take incidents where I end up the receiving end of someone else's action racing in a virtual world too seriously, life is too short for that. Besides I don't know what the other person can or cannot see on his 2d restricted FOV. or maybe the cat just jumped on his lap :roflmao:

the racing here is generally very clean but some of the open lobbies or even SimGrid on the other hand........

Don't take this long essay as a rant, just my viewpoint nothing more :thumbsup:

It's perfectly fine and legal for stefan to return to the racing line there into druids once there is no overlap. Sounds like you have learned from it anyway and will have it in your head as a possible scenario in future, which is what it's all about. At the same time stefan is also taking a risk of getting punted to defend his outside but that's his decision to weigh up.

Btw not seen the replay so i'm assuming there was no overlap which is a different situation.
First, wtf I just went to get a coffee before writing down my reply and now there's already everything said.
But since I took 11 screenshots, you'll have to eat them, lol! :D

,here's the replay :)

Then I think Stefan was fierce, but completely fine. There was enough room all the time, I'll show some screenshots.
However I completely understand how Taj got "intimidated" and took the lines he did. It was just a usual case of newcomer vs frontrunner on a hunt.

StefanVsTaj_1.JPG

This is the turn in point. Taj left a lot of room and since Stefan was "on a mission", he went for the gap. At this point Taj could've closed the door and Stefan would've been at fault..-

StefanVsTaj_2.JPG

..-but he didn't. Now there's enough overlap (for our "Gentlemen driving standards" at least, for Taj not being allowed to shut the door anymore.
Now the question is: Will Stefan be able to keep it at the inside and leave room?

StefanVsTaj_3.JPG

Yes he did. There was enough room and they both went through it unharmed.

StefanVsTaj_4.JPG

Entering the braking zone, Stefan knew Linus would be a bit slower than him, but he would probably brake later than Taj.
So a good move imo, could've done it a meter later though.
The braking point for me was the shadow, so still a bit to go until the braking point.

StefanVsTaj_5.JPG

The gap when Stefan brakes. Right on the shadow like me. That's plenty enough imo. Although might be quite close for a less experienced driver!

StefanVsTaj_6.JPG

This is my Lambo seat position with 43° FOV. Looks a bit closer than on the heli cam.. But still okay imo.

StefanVsTaj_7.JPG

Now things get interesting.
Stefan uses all the space possible and leaves room for Taj. However Taj doesn't use all the room which means he's on a shorter line but won't accelerate as well as Stefan.
Advice for Taj: squeeze the outside car a bit more. Not only to get more traction, but also to keep yourself on the car-radar and in the mirrors of the other car so he doesn't think you'd be gone!

StefanVsTaj_8.JPG

Plenty of room after the exit, trajectories looking good for both.
StefanVsTaj_9.JPG

Now the issues start. Stefan points a bit towards the outside and the overlap isn't really there anymore. Difficult situation for Taj now.. backing off or trying to get back to enough overlap and keep it on the track?
You can see that the trajectory already points off-track.. That's never good.
Advice for Taj: go closer !

StefanVsTaj_10.JPG

And now Taj is off the track, as expected from the last screenshot.
However I think Stefan went a bit far to the right here.. It's a very fierce move against a slower driver. But 100% within the rules.

Here's the last screenshot and a very important one imo:
StefanVsTaj_11.JPG

I went into Stefan's onboard and activated car-radar and helicorsa.
This is very important for Taj I think:
You can see that both radars don't show the coloured "attention area" anymore. There's a gap between the cars so Stefan can move over. Crewchief probably told Stefan "Clear right!" in this moment.

My advice for Taj:

If I would've been in your situation, I would've:
  1. Squeeze Stefan a bit to the outside. He was there anyway so just go closer, next to him.
    In simracing it's all about staying predictable and making clear moves. Dropping out of the mirrors and the radars by taking a different line is always risky.
    I always prefer to go "In sync, side by side" with some safety distance.
    Red Bull Ring T1 and T2 are good example. Most incidents happen due to the inside car going way too far to the inside and then the drivers come together at the apex with really different angles of trajectory.
    It's a lot easier to not crash if the inside car keeps itself next to the outside car towards the outside so you can go side by side towards the apex and if you touch, the cars will point parallel instead of the inside car spearing into the side of the outside car.

  2. Never go off track. If there's overlap, Stefan will see on his car radar and won't move further to the right. If there's no overlap, Stefan will see this too and move over without touching you.
 

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Taj Johal

Premium
Rasmus, excellent analysis and advice :thumbsup:

I deliberatelytook a tighter a line out of Duids, knew it would cost me acceleration but I wanted to keep clear of Stefan. But I didn't think about disappearing from his Helicorsa, that's a good point, hadn't thought of that, something to bear in mind in future.
 

pattikins

Premium
...

And Pat was just doing a normal thing pressuring me 30 seconds before the race finished (without waiting for the following straight for me to lift and let him by) when I thought Logan was a legitimate pass - but I didn't like it and I went off.

Its racing.

Blue flags undoubtedly place pressure on the driver that is about to be lapped. Our incident, however, as explained in a pm, should've been a simple overtake. The reason it wasn't, was down to you drifting off the racing line.

A key component of racing is decision making. A simple [half] lift would've sufficed to avoid that collision.

As also mentioned in the pm, I hope you've reviewed the Road America race & how you effected myself & Aki on the last lap.
 

jackdyson31

Premium
Blue flags undoubtedly place pressure on the driver that is about to be lapped. Our incident, however, as explained in a pm, should've been a simple overtake. The reason it wasn't, was down to you drifting off the racing line.

A key component of racing is decision making. A simple [half] lift would've sufficed to avoid that collision.

As also mentioned in the pm, I hope you've reviewed the Road America race & how you effected myself & Aki on the last lap.
Yes I agree it should have been a simple overtake from your perspective - however from mine (and this is what my point is about) it was for you to wait for me to lift after the next corner. Don't badger me on track I won't yield that way. There is a rule and I will follow that. In the event I did not see you move left because you were very close and I tried to flick left to give you the position. I went off.

I didn't like the way you closed up with absolutely nothing to gain, I still don't like it, but I do accept you were within your rights as was I. You were too close to me to be safe imo, given that this is month 3 for me at the club and no matter how many posts you make about how it was in the good old days - that is where I stand.

No idea (don't have the video because it doesn't download them for me) about collisions with you and Aki (sorry who is that? I don't know the gentleman) - I did say at Road America I was taken out myself by two drivers, no one waited for me there but to be fair one of them voluntarily retired I have heard so fair does, the other probably couldn't care less - but you know its racing so I let it go. In any case what's your point ? You have never made a mistake or something ? Furthermore - I believe I took your word for it and apologised to you in the PM for RA.

But again you can refer it to one of our staff and get me a ban - I'll take it.
 
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