Getting into Tactile Immersion - Help please?

[Ceolmor]

Noob enquiry here from someone seeking guidance from others who are prepared to share their experiences of tactile immersion.

I have a good 80/20 rig with a fibreglass racing bucket seat. I am getting good ffb from my wheel, but I am looking to dip my toes (or backside) into the world of tactile immersion. I do mostly Assetto Corsa with some DiRT Rally and rFactor2. Maybe also PCars2 next month.

What I'm looking for is two shakers for the seat (left and right) to give me engine, gear change, bumps and rear slippage tactile feedback. Later, I might want to extend 'simvibe' to other parts of the rig (pedals) but I want to keep it simple at this stage until I better understand what I'm doing. I've read a lot of threads, but still have a lot of questions.

Noise
I've read reports of people not using simvibe due to the noise and the shakers become expensive paperweights! Is simvibe noisy? My rig is upstairs on carpet with cushioned underlay. Can I resolve the problem completely with rubber isolators, or will there always be some noise, and how much?

Amplifier
I think this one is simple. The iNuke NU1000 DSP here seems to be the way to go. Would go for the iNuke NU3000 DSP here if that was considered necessary or advisable. Is it?

Shakers
The Buttkicker Mini LFE here would be the simplest option, as they are currently available in the UK and I can get brackets here to easily attach to the rig. But, should I be concerned about the apparent noise issue? Mr Latte has been testing here on resolving the issue, but would I be better to avoid having to do a work-around and go for a different shaker instead? How would the ADX Maximus here compare, which is also available in the UK? What are others experience of these two shakers?

Placement

It seems I have a number of options. (a) The shakers sitting on the aforementioned brackets attached to the outside of the two runners. (b) Each shaker bolted to either side of a sheet of aluminium or wood attached to the bottom of the two brackets. (c) Each shaker bolted to either side of a sheet of aluminium or wood attached to the bottom of the runners. (d) Shakers bolted directly to the bottom and back of the seat (which I'd prefer to avoid if possible as I don't want to be drilling holes in my seat.)

Does anyone have any thoughts on which might be the best? Maybe there is a better option I've not thought of. Wood or aluminium? Where is it best to put isolators. With these placements (except d) will I feel any left and right separation?

Software
SSW here or Sim Commander 4 here? I am thinking of trying the SSW, which is a bit cheaper and may suit my 'simple' needs. Will this give me what I am looking for?

Any advice will be gratefully appreciated. Thanks in anticipation.

 

[Tim Palmgren]

This is quite an interesting thread. Particularly some of the isolation pieces, thanks for posting all the pics and info, definitely food for thought.

You mentioned you were looking at adding more shakers later, have you looked in to 'shakeit'? You could use that for each individual pedal + gear shift to get further effects into your pedals and it costs a fraction of the transducer route (I put mine together for about $60NZ as I had some old xbox controllers I wasn't using). It works really well and means you can have discrete effects, like brake lockup etc.

 

[Ceolmor]

UPGRADE #1 - Adding a second Buttkicker ....

As was always planned, I eventually got round to adding a another Buttkicker Advance to the rig, this time to the pedals.

For the pedals, I attached the Buttkicker Advance (BKA) differently to the seat, using the side bracket to bolt the BKA to the side of the 80/20 profile and two angle brackets. I also used an aluminium plate from my old triple screen stand to connect the underside of the BKA to a 80/20 profile on the other side, so some vibration could travel in that direction also.

[This is the BKA attached to the seat section, but same method of attachment as for the seat referred to above.]

The Result:
By adding a second BKA, it is increasing the tactile output on the rig by 100%. And it really shows. I get a much better overall sensation of the various effects. In particular, the excellent engine effect in SSW feels really good on the pedals. The BKA under the pedals is much quieter than that under the seat. I thought this was because it had to move less weight. However, see below.

 

[Ceolmor]

UPDATE - Noisy Buttkicker Advance

I had always been a little disappointed with the results I was getting from the first Buttkicker Advance I had attached to the seat. I felt as if I was getting more noise than shake/vibration. However, being new to tactile immersion, I assumed this was normal.

It was not until I got the second BKA that I realised that there might be something wrong with the first BKA. So I contacted Nigel at shakercentreuk . Received fast, efficient and friendly service. Sent the BK Advance to him on a Tuesday. Arrived back on Friday of the same week. Fully repaired.

The noise was due to the lubrication having dried out. So new lubrication and now it is much quieter.

I also attached the BKA under the seat in the same way as the pedals, attached to the side of a 80/20 profile, as described above. For me this is working better than the previous arrangement of it hanging from underneath two 80/20 profiles.

 

[Mr Latte]

UPGRADE #1 - Adding a second Buttkicker ....

As was always planned, I eventually got round to adding a another Buttkicker Advance to the rig, this time to the pedals.

For the pedals, I attached the Buttkicker Advance (BKA) differently to the seat, using the side bracket to bolt the BKA to the side of the 80/20 profile and two angle brackets. I also used an aluminium plate from my old triple screen stand to connect the underside of the BKA to a 80/20 profile on the other side, so some vibration could travel in that direction also.

[This is the BKA attached to the seat section, but same method of attachment as for the seat referred to above.]

The Result:
By adding a second BKA, it is increasing the tactile output on the rig by 100%. And it really shows. I get a much better overall sensation of the various effects. In particular, the excellent engine effect in SSW feels really good on the pedals. The BKA under the pedals is much quieter than that under the seat. I thought this was because it had to move less weight. However, see below.

With having both seat and pedals now active you're now bringing tactile feedback into two separate body regions. That part is obvious (lol) but how it changes the sensation to what the user has felt or had before with only a single unit can be quite engrossing when 2 are combined.

Several I have talked too recently (some in PM) have went with this suggested hardware path of 2x BK Advance, so I am sure people will continue to follow your own installation here with great interest Rob. I do hope you will soon pull the trigger on adding a DSP 1000 amp and TST to match these units. To duplicate the soundcard channels output (Behringer MS8000) and bring the "Dual Role" benefits with the TST delivering more detail and their own contact points into the "Spine" and "Feet".

Regards the iNuke model series, nothing new was shown or announced HERE which is normally a venue for upcoming product releases. The iNuke amplifier range was officially shown there I believe in 2011 with the range expanding the next year in 2012.

Can't find any news on the products becoming discontinued, even though Thomann do seem to of dropped them and also some other Behringer hardware like the (MS8000 channel duplicator) that they used to stock. Lots of other vendors still have or are selling stocks.

Have found a UK workshop that will fix my DSP6000 for a fair price but still need to buy 2 more DSP 1000 models for the 6 amps I will need. I also need to buy The Behringer MS8000 yet also as I want to upgrade my current duplicators cabling. To move away from RCA cables it currently uses (prone to electrical interference).

I think its time you and @signman or any other 8020 owners with BK Advance teamed up and experimented. Jointly working closely on installation options. Nothing stopping you guys discovering the very best way to install these onto 8020 be it via leverage arm, or material dampening with the units and do frequency tests to determine how each maybe differs or if any have specific drawbacks in detailing? I wouldn't personally just focus on "this feels bolder" but rely on more specific testing with Hz. For instance, If one installation feels like 3dB stronger then is it any better than just increasing the older/different installation by 3dB gain?

See HERE as an alternative online "Tone Generator" useful for testing.


Got some of these EVA Pads (being imported) due soon that I am going to test with.
Will let you know how well they help with vibration reduction.


I am also comparing different, soundproofing underlay materials to use these combined with FATMAT or other sound deadening products. Really a whole thread could be focused on these in its own but I think lots still can be learned.

SSW "NERO" Effects
Have new "Acceleration" based effect I am working on as increasing my own understanding of how it is active and can be incorporated to work with the "Standard Engine" effect.

In laymans terms as your rig is now a "Front & Back" configuration. You will be able to better sense now "Acceleration" at the seat/rear and "Deceleration/Braking" at the front. We have control in SSW in how we place these effects to only operate in one or how strong in each channel we want them. Having a strong sensation of G-force for the pedals under braking and strong activity in acceleration out of corners at the rear is an example of this that works and feels real good. A user with a single unit like you had or a user with stereo on the seat will not get this as it only suits a front/back axis.

I have new acceleration effects that I have been working on and these can combine better with the general "Engine Beat" based effect. One is the engine sensation, the other seems to be the g-force load created by the speed/acceleration and pedal % applied. Here if you had "Dual Role" with TST installed you would then feel better the combination of these effects but that will come in time perhaps if you do decide to continue to grow your tactile.

Happy to see you progressing and sharing with the community...

 

[Ceolmor]

Thanks @Mr Latte

I am having a busy weekend. Half way through an experiment which I hope will improve further my tactile immersion on the 80/20 rig. I will do a full report when complete, but in the meantime here’s a little taster @Mr Latte might recognise .....

 

[Mr Latte]

If you want some "leverage/rebound" type physical movement for the actual shaker installed.
Try it mounted with a rubber based material under the legs or some form of replicating the unit "hanging" from an extended arm perhaps.

See how BK recommend installing between joists in their own PDF material.

I'm keen to learn more from those that investigate this more but with proper Hz based testing not just "aye it feels stronger" based results.

Really though I think you guys need an 8020 made bench test platform.
That with more in-depth tests, even recording video of the units movement from mobile phones (which these days can capture upto 1000 fps slow-mo) would be ways of looking more into this.

Keep in mind also the high Hz or heat issue is related. As Hz refers to cycles-per-second, so in theory, does that not mean a unit has to operate continuously faster to generate those Hz which bring limited or no real benefits above @ 100Hz for us using tactile for SIM purposes?

My view is that with "musical tactile" integration and enjoyment its a different matter and that can benefit with TST and much higher frequencies (harmonics) being used to bring a "live" sensation to music.

Especially with certain instruments or types of music

 

[Ceolmor]

If you want some "leverage/rebound" type physical movement for the actual shaker installed.
Try it mounted with a rubber based material under the legs or some form of replicating the unit "hanging" from an extended arm perhaps.

See how BK recommend installing between joists in their own PDF material.

Not sure what is being suggested here. Are you referring to this?

My original first installation was similar to Figure 6, but with 80/20 profiles instead of joists. See below.

Not brilliant, but this was with the 'dodgy' BKA.

Replaced with this.

I found the vibration from this better. Deeper, more controlled and less noise (but again this could be due to the 'better' BKA.

Now I have this, using 5mm mild steel.

Haven't tested in game yet (as I have not added the pedals yet). Just done the SSW test and the Tone Tester. The amount of vibration does not feel any better than the previous installation, which is a shame. However, the amount of vibration/noise escaping into the main rig is much worse and really bad. I am going to fit the isolators differently to see if this helps.

 

[Mr Latte]

The plate is what my own first pref to do would of been. Although I'd of put the "H" plate on top of the seat supports and not underneath. That way the "H" plate energy has to go through the seat supports, prior to the isolators.

This larger piece of metal should sustain the energy better, that may be why you hear more vibration noise?

Your going to a lot of work so it's commendable the effort your putting in.The drilled plate looks excellent, now we need it to perform.

Keep us posted. If you have any of that rubber left, try 2 strips of it cut under the seat support (where you currently have the steel "H" plate)

• Steel H Plate
• Seat Rail
• Rubber Strip
• Isolators

* Take an image of the mounted seat. Show me gap for the underside of the seat to the H plate please.

 

[Ceolmor]

The plate was designed to go underneath and support the seat bracket above. The reason is I don't think there is enough clearance underneath the seat itself at the back to fit the plate between the fibreglass underside of the seat and the horizontal of the seat bracket.

I have lots of the 3mm rubber sheeting left, but am unclear where you are suggesting I place it. Surely not between the seat bracket and the steel plate.

There is the height of a (squashed) RI-4 isolator between the steel plate and the 80/20 profile below. A big enough gap that the plate is unable to touch the profile.

With this design the seat is completely isolated from the 80/20 rig, as per my intention, except for the bolt that runs through the isolator to connect the two parts together. The bolt either sits at the bottom of the T slot, touching the aluminium, or vibrates as the rubber compresses. This can be the only place where vibration is seeping into the rig. You can feel the 80/20 profiles of the rig vibrating. The noise is coming from the wheel section of the rig, due to the number of things attached to it which have the propensity to rattle. (Button box, shifter etc)

One idea to prevent this might be as follows

But then still some vibration can travel down the bolt into the aluminium. Would these be better?

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi again, thanks for the detailed response and yeah I recall from PM a while back you did mention the issue with the seat height and how it would be dropping below the level of the plate. I thought you were referring to vibration noise and reverb from within the seat and the immediate 8020 frame.


Bolt Still Transferring Tactile
The bolt is a much smaller point of contact than two surfaces but yes it will be "Tactile Hot" in how you have it mounted and transferring some tactile energy as you currently have it.

Some people may want some energy from a single unit to still go into other areas of the rig yet also help isolate a seat.

If you wanted, yes it could be improved to isolate more the seat. Using a rubber solution for the head of the bolt. This would isolate it from the seat riser that is in direct contact with the tactile source. This could be a few rubber washers but better if using an isolator also at the top to isolate the actual bolt too. Though if doing potentially needing longer bolts?

Bolt Head > Metal Washer > Top Isolator > Tactile Surface > Bottom Isolator > 8020


Isolators
That BK isolator you showed looks far too soft with the strain it is under and squishing over the supporting rail. I think we had a plan at one stage to have 2 each side and front and back, this may support the seat better if using these.

You seem restricted with having 3 down each side to help even the load. As looking at things this cant be easily done with the holes/spacing of the seat rails and the "H" plate also being bolted to it.

The alternative is using more professional isolators like the T200 isolators that Nigel could supply from Shaker Center. T200 have the metal component for the thread encompassed within the compound. So you avoid the "Tactile Hot" bolt issue.

The isolator then bolts to the bottom surface via a rubber coated metal plate. They also can come in different levels/ratings of the compound but in our case, we are not supporting industrial equipment or extreme loads. I know of others that have found these to work rather well but they are not cheap like most options people seek on ebay or as you showed.

The isolator that you shared (popular ebay purchase) is maybe more suited to lesser tactile unless multiple pairs are used. Possibly you could get 4 on each side? These by appearance look like a single bolt with metal inserts but actually, are 2 individual bolt ends, contained within the compound, having a small rubber section in between both to act as the point of isolation. Yet this rubber is much softer than say the T200 being offered to consider.

Someone would have to do a test to compare multiple of these cheap options to a T200 to determine what basically works better. Personally, I don't see the point in spending a rather large sum on tactile hardware to then go cheap and basic with the isolation. 4x T200 would fit well on the 8020 and might just save a lot of further hassle.

 

[Mr Latte]

Different Seats
For those following this thread lets consider some things that need to be taken into account.
As this is a "Race Seat" using seat mounts it is very different to a "Car Seat" that has an internal metal frame and seat rail mounting points. These have much larger surface points or contact areas that can be used to deliver the tactile directly into the seat and on left/right hand sides.

With this installation using a "Race Seat" in that the seat itself is typically suspended by 4 bolts on the "Seat Risers". These 4 bolts basically become the primary source for delivering the tactile into the seat itself. This is much less contact than a typical car seat with seat rails and an internal metal frame.

Bring More Contact
So one thing we would seek to do is to increase the point of contact areas the seat has but also come at the seat from below and more, not just the 4 bolts on the seat risers. As this is a "Mono Channel" tactile installation we do not need to worry about trying to maintain or sustain stereo tactile into the seat.

If anything in this build, you have a large plate area that is the primary point of the tactile installation. Yet we are not using it to make contact with the underside of the seat. One issue was the current plates and how the seat would need to drop lower. As the current seat supports have not enough height to let the lowest point of the seat still remain above the newly installed plate.

Ideas & Advice Only
What I would seek to do if this was my own build is to find a solution to have the seat higher, have the "H" plate on top of the risers (help isolation for 80/20 below). Be it, to get new seat risers with more height adjustment or an alternative solution in modifying the plate installation. More on the reason for this below.

Also to increase the contact points of the seat risers to the actual seat.
Firstly spreading the gap slightly between the seat risers 5-10mm. We then could use a combination of metal washers and rubber washers that increase the "point of contact" of the side of the seat to the seat riser. Other solutions are possible too, this using "washers" is just an example.

The seat may be curved or angled as to the shape of its mold here so yes it may need some rubber solution or washers that can fill the form needed. The idea here is to rely not just on the M8 bolts but create a larger diameter or surface area in contact with the seat at each riser supporting the seat.

Underneath Potential
Greatly increase the efficiency of the tactile and introduce another direction or path of contact. This could be as simple solution, as a wedge-shaped doorstop, bolted to the "H" plate and creating a snug fit to the seat underside. You will find solid oak or metal options available but use this area below the seat not let it go to waste or be unused, especially with this being a mono channel installation.

Extended Arm & Future TST
You won't get the best out of this till you combine a TST in the spine region.
Even with multiple tactile below my own seat. I instantly lose out in immersion without a TST units additional detailing tactile energy going direct into the sensitive back region.

You have the possibility here to have an 8020 extended arm coming from the underside of the "H" plate and connecting to the spine/shoulder regions of the seat. Keep in perspective that using different "Body Regions" are a HUGE part of improving tactile immersion.

I would have such an extension to help deliver the BK Advance energy into the back but then also have a TST connected to this extension, to have both units operate in "Dual Role".

Consider that these suggestions do the following but understand that such needs trials and testing in how each can be successfully installed:

• Improve the seat isolation from the frame with T200 isolators
• Increase the contact points/area the seat risers have with the seat sides
• Bring direct tactile connection to the underside of the seat
• Create additional contact to the back/spine of the seat via extended 8020 arm
• Advanced detailing of 2 units combining improved efficiency of frequencies and energy

 

[Ceolmor]

Bolt Still Transferring Tactile

If you wanted, yes it could be improved to isolate more the seat. Using a rubber solution for the head of the bolt. This would isolate it from the seat riser that is in direct contact with the tactile source.

Bolt Head > Metal Washer > Top Isolator > Tactile Surface > Bottom Isolator > 8020

I will make some custom "washers" from the rubber sheeting I have and experiment with these.

Isolators

That BK isolator you showed looks far too soft with the strain it is under and squishing over the supporting rail.

It is soft, but BK say they are appropriate for furniture. They are squished so much in the photo because they are bolted down so tight. If I loosen off the bolt, then when the isolator compresses a gap appears at the top where the bolt head and washer are.

The alternative is using more professional isolators like the T200 isolators that Nigel could supply from Shaker Center. T200 have the metal component for the thread encompassed within the compound. So you avoid the "Tactile Hot" bolt issue.

I can get something similar for half the price at AV Industrial Products

The isolator that you shared (popular ebay purchase) is maybe more suited to lesser tactile unless multiple pairs are used.

The isolator I shared is from AV Industrial Products. You can get them 50mm x 25mm, the same dimensions as the BK RI-4 isolators, but of course the bolt at the top is completely separate from the bolt at the bottom, improving the isolation. The max loads should be more than sufficient.

Different Seats

For those following this thread lets consider some things that need to be taken into account.
As this is a "Race Seat" using seat mounts it is very different to a "Car Seat" that has an internal metal frame and seat rail mounting points. These have much larger surface points or contact areas that can be used to deliver the tactile directly into the seat and on left/right hand sides.

You have confirmed what I have long thought to be the case. Fibreglass is a bad conductor of tactile vibration. A Race Seat is never going to be as good as a standard road car seat.

Bring More Contact

So one thing we would seek to do is to increase the point of contact areas the seat has but also come at the seat from below and more, not just the 4 bolts on the seat risers.

As I have the "Seat Risers" as close together as possible, the metal sides are tight against the fibreglass sides of the seat, adding to the contact area.

Ideas & Advice Only

What I would seek to do if this was my own build is to find a solution to have the seat higher, have the "H" plate on top of the risers (help isolation for 80/20 below). Be it, to get new seat risers with more height adjustment or an alternative solution in modifying the plate installation. More on the reason for this below.

I might be able to fit the "H" plate to sit on the seat risers, but the sides of the risers would not be tight against the sides of the seat, so I would loose tactile transfer here.

Underneath Potential

Greatly increase the efficiency of the tactile and introduce another direction or path of contact. This could be as simple solution, as a wedge-shaped doorstop, bolted to the "H" plate and creating a snug fit to the seat underside. You will find solid oak or metal options available but use this area below the seat not let it go to waste or be unused, especially with this being a mono channel installation.

It might not be too difficult for me to get made up a wedge in hardwood to jam or fix under the seat.

Extended Arm & Future TST

You won't get the best out of this till you combine a TST in the spine region.
Even with multiple tactile below my own seat. I instantly lose out in immersion without a TST units additional detailing tactile energy going direct into the sensitive back region.

I had already been looking to buy another NU1000DSP and a TST239 this month, but need to get this upgrade sorted first.

You have the possibility here to have an 8020 extended arm coming from the underside of the "H" plate and connecting to the spine/shoulder regions of the seat. Keep in perspective that using different "Body Regions" are a HUGE part of improving tactile immersion.

I would have such an extension to help deliver the BK Advance energy into the back but then also have a TST connected to this extension, to have both units operate in "Dual Role".

Is a 8020 extended arm necessary? Will the tactile vibration travel well through a long piece of 8020 profile? Would merely bolting the TST to the spine of the seat work? I know there has been this debate before, but according to the Clark Synthesis Transducer Installation Guide the TST239 can be fixed vertically.

• Improve the seat isolation from the frame with T200 isolators
• Increase the contact points/area the seat risers have with the seat sides
• Bring direct tactile connection to the underside of the seat
• Create additional contact to the back/spine of the seat via extended 8020 arm
• Advanced detailing of 2 units combining improved efficiency of frequencies and energy

I will complete the current planned installation (I have yet to re-build the the pedal area) and test it all in-game first to check the levels of tactile vibration and noise. I will then tinker with what I've currently got to see if this solves any ongoing issues, before buying more isolators.

 

[Mr Latte]

I don't think the rubber washers will make a great deal of difference, some but how much really? A top isolator would be better. Clearly, you still have a fair bit of tactile energy going into the mainframe, regardless of what Buttkicker recommend or say is adequate for furniture, so yes you could have improved primary isolation installed but this takes trying alternatives or some additional materials/options.

Isolator Choices
It's upto you what to do but the alternative isolator you showed, isn't in my view similar to the quality of the T200 isolators. Yeah half the price you stated but is it just as good or half as good? What I can say is, I know people that have used the T200 and thought they did quite a decent job. Even with these a fair bit of energy will still pass through but they would be an improvement to the BK ones already installed. Do you take the risk on some bobbins to seek after an improvement or just pay the extra and get what some others have been happy with?

Tub Seats
I wouldn't say that a user cant get a good tactile immersion from a fiberglass or even carbon based seat. Sure if a user is relying just on the main bolts connected to the risers, yeah it can bring more of a challenge in getting plenty of energy going into the seat. Yet if you have already got some contact with the seat risers and not just the bolts then that should help quite a bit.

I had a previous seat (Cobra Sebring Pro) with 2x TST bolted direct to a bucket seat for L/R and another for the Spine. Then a BK Advance bolted to an underframe section from a Gamepod cockpit. This was bolted directly to the seats own risers and that worked quite well for me.

Wedge
Ebay has plenty of wedge-shaped door stoppers. Im sure something can be found that is suitable or easily cut that could fit in between the seat and the "H" plate.

Extension Arm
The point of the extended arm would be to help tactile energy from the BK, to go into the back of the seat. It will easily travel up the arm and into the back of the seat.

I am just sharing things that I know have worked well in the past with others and bring another path for the tactile to enter into the seat. This extended arm could have the TST attached to it up near the shoulder blade area and then bolted to the back of the seat.

TST 239 Vertical
Yes, it is understood that the TST 239 now being sold can be mounted vertical so this isn't a problem anymore. Though, you could if you wanted just bolt the TST with its own fitting direct to the back of the seat and not bother with an extended arm, it comes down to if your bothered testing such or even like the idea of it.

 

[Ceolmor]

UPDATE - TACTILE RIG UPGRADE & ISOLATION

My first attempt at attaching the BK Advance to the seat using the 5mm mild steel plate instead of the 20/20 profiles was not very successful. I had lots of options (see above) as to how I might improve this. This is what I decided to do.

Seat
For the seat I managed to fit the 5mm mild steel plate above the seat brackets instead of underneath, as recommended. I added back a 50mm washer between the Buttkicker Ri-4 isolator and the 80/20 profile below. I tightened the bolt holding the isolator right down so the end of the bolt was touching the bottom of the T slot in the 80/20 profile, and then turned it back a couple of notches so there was a little clearance. This compressed the isolator as much as possible, which makes it more stable. See below.

The result is that the whole seat arrangement is now quieter and less vibration is leaking into the steering wheel section of the rig, where there are lots of things to rattle. The vibration in the seat now gives a more natural "rubbery" feel. I don't get so much clunking or jarring bumps, just occasionally if I hit a large bump in the road.

Pedals
For the pedals, the 5mm mild steel plate is underneath the Heusinkveld pedal plate brackets, as the mild steel plate is too wide to place it above, as I have done with the seat.

Previously, I had no isolation for the pedals. It was therefore a bit noisy, but not too bad. With isolation it is now a little quieter. But I am missing some of the "buzz" I was getting from the pedals, especially the engine vibrations with SSW, which I quite liked. It may be with a bit of tweaking of SSW or iNuke Remote I can get that back.

Conclusions
The above was all done because supposedly 80/20 profiles are not a good conductor of tactile and I might get better results from 5mm mild steel plate.

My conclusion from this experiment is that the 80/20 profiles are not that bad. I was getting as much tactile vibration from my old system of attaching the BKAs to the 80/20 profiles as I am now, it was just different.

Overall I think the current set up is slightly better, but whether it was worth all the hassle I am not sure. There were times when I was constantly bolting and unbolting stuff that I could have easily chucked my Buttkickers in the bin. However, one upside to this project is that I got to spend a day with my 84 year old Dad in his old workshop measuring and drilling holes in mild steel.

As for the BK R-4 isolators, generally I think they are a bit too soft. I will be interested to see how @Michal Burisin gets on testing his different isolator mounts.

I think I now need to experiment a bit with SSW settings, and then I want to explore this dual role idea, as I am now feeling like I want to isolate a bit the bumps and other sensations from the engine. I also want to look at ways of getting kerb rumble, which is currently missing. It breaks the immersion when you go over a kerb and the wheel vibrates and you can hear the rumble, but the BKs do nothing.

 

[signman]

Cool to be working with your Dad ;-)

I grew up around car's in my Dad's garage business from age 6
He is long gone but I sit and remember those great day's.

Nothing wrong with Profile regards tactile feedback in my opinion.
Some who spew this stuff have prob never even tried it.

Have tried a wooden rig with tactile and it was pant's.

I've been doing quite a bit of experimenting myself.

Been trying various mounting solution's for my seat tactile and pedal's.
Agree on loosing vibes from the pedal's..sucks.

I tried mounting seat on those same isolators, prefer without.


I found tweaking DGX mixer more useful.

Shame you are not local, more than welcome to call and try my rig.
Would have been cool to have got your thought's.

Still super impressed with my tactile though.
Now spending more time in iracing than AC.

I don't think SSW feels as good in IR.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks for sharing and continuing this....

Glad if you are slowly but surely getting "some" improvements.
Its a lot of work and indeed not all things work as planned at times yet still can be stressful, I applaud you bringing truth in your updates not only that as your work here is going to help others.

If you wanted, you could in the seat, have a rubber isolator "above" the plate and using a new longer bolt. As currently, the "bolt" itself is still "tactile hot" in making direct contact with the 5mm plate. So this would help reduce further the vibes going into the main-frame.

Lets not, however, expect usage in using one of the more basic and softer "rubber isolators" to contain the tactile, as well as some others, may do.

The bobbins people keep showing I have bought some of them in the past and cut them in half to see really all that they are. With the bigger tactile I think some people are placing a lot to ask in the hope that such will greatly suppress vibrations. Not to say they may not make a difference but if we learn from this then in time comparisons and tests with different products and options from people will help the general understanding for those with future builds.

The hardness and compound used in the isolator, how big/thick it is and if it also has a metal component are all factors that could make differences here with the felt rebound you talk about and the level of isolation happening.

As for 8020 I certainly do not recall saying it was "no good" as a material, however steel is considered to be a better material than aluminum. We could ask what type of aluminum or steel but the textbook science doesn't matter so much, what does matter is trying the practical and working applications we can and then seeking to improve things.

Having contact under the seat with the plate and as explained in the previous post would not be hard to implement and will increase the contact area with the seat. Im keen to get you to try this and report what difference it adds. You don't show much of the gap that is now there or mention trying this yet?

I ordered 4 of these isolation pads and they feel good but not installed as I'm due to dismantle mine soon.

Available in 2" and 4" square pads.


Imported mine but later found this UK seller HERE

I also have purchased neoprene rubber samples for 2mm, 4mm and 5.5mm thickness as I plan to try various options in my build in the coming weeks/months.

As like yourself, my own build noise below is a major factor. I will be trying a few products similar to these below to place beneath my rubber floor tyles and between my wooden flooring.

Many underlay type products in this area.

Good info but aint ripping no floor up

Pedals
Missing "zing" in the pedals? Is this now missing "tactile detail" or a degree of resonance when bare on the profile that is now gone? You could try some extra gain in the pedals now that they are isolated, but let us know if the mid-low end has improved but the higher frequency detail subdued?

Take note different cars can make quite a differerence too, even with the same files.....
This is important when doing comparisons....

 

[signman]

Pedals
Missing "zing" in the pedals? Is this now missing "tactile detail" or a degree of resonance when bare on the profile that is now gone? You could try some extra gain in the pedals now that they are isolated, but let us know if the mid-low end has improved but the higher frequency detail subdued?

Take note different cars can make quite a differerence too, even with the same files.....
This is important when doing comparisons....

This is bang on the money.

I'm just swapping various Decel files to try and find a nice high freq vibe in my feet
for the Nissan GTP in iracing.

Everything about the set I have is tuned in great apart from decel in the pedal's.
Excellent engine vibes in the feet, but this set I'm using is lacking that decel I love so much in the feet.

Closest you going to get to feeling set of hot race brake pads biting down onto a 6/8 pot set of AP caliper's

Robbing decel wav file's and trying them this evening.
As Rod said what suits one car won't always suit another.

 

[Mr Latte]

Pedals
Missing "zing" in the pedals? Is this now missing "tactile detail" or a degree of resonance when bare on the profile that is now gone? You could try some extra gain in the pedals now that they are isolated, but let us know if the mid-low end has improved but the higher frequency detail subdued?

Take note different cars can make quite a differerence too, even with the same files.....
This is important when doing comparisons....

This is bang on the money.

I'm just swapping various Decel files to try and find a nice high freq vibe in my feet
for the Nissan GTP in iracing.

Everything about the set I have is tuned in great apart from decel in the pedal's.
Excellent engine vibes in the feet, but this set I'm using is lacking that decel I love so much in the feet.

Closest you going to get to feeling set of hot race brake pads biting down onto a 6/8 pot set of AP caliper's

Robbing decel wav file's and trying them this evening.
As Rod said what suits one car won't always suit another.

Keep in mind guys we can utilise the .wav for the effect in various ways.
Even if the effect used is the same. Here are some examples:

For deceleration, have it respond only in the front channels, or have the effect activate on the front three or indeed all channels if desired. We can even have a ratio of energy split for the .wav over the front/back units. An example of say 40% energy in the rear and 60% energy in the front.

This ratio or deployment of the effect is then maintained regardless what SSW gain level is used via the slider or the amplifier volume.

What I find works well in testing is have say the same effect deploying over the channels in one fashion placed in "car folder 1" . Then have an alternative(s) in car folder 2, 3 etc. When in the sim you can then quickly load the folder and refresh SSW to compare.

From my own messing around I think with some cars, we may want things to be different based on how that particular car feels to another for such effects. In essence, if doing this we are helping to create different characters not just different levels of energy sensation for a car.
Such may not be fully accurate but what matters is if the immersion or character feels right but good for the car.

If an effect is too strong for some cars it feels odd, to me anyways. I dont think this issue is just about always seeking "more" energy for some cars.

Another thing and this may sound daft but I think it is relevant. I believe the audio of some cars engines and how loud we may use them has a bearing on our perception and satisfaction of the tactile. How our brain and bodys nerves, and muscle tissue is combining all the senses.

I totally get some will happily want to stick to one set of effect files and use that for all cars but I think in doing this we are greatly missing the full potential.

Steering Wheel effects are interesting in that Rob is missing the "bbbbbrrrrrrrrrrrrr" via his BK Advance. Some of this is partly down to the actual bumps and telemetry they output. Although I think I've talked enough about bumps in SSW and what needs to be done yet to advance them. Though few are supportive in seeking Andre to consider implementing. I wasn't wrong on the suggested engine improvements Andre seemed willing to quickly add. Looking at what I see from the monitoring of effects and settings, I do not believe I am wrong on the suggestion with small/large bumps.

For bump detail and disregarding SSW issues, adding the TST and incorporating EQ boosted "audio tactile" will help greatly to what Rob is currently experiencing. We have some more members coming along with BK Advance and TST combos, so I hope they share their own views in what they feel or experience in the future.

Alternatively, I can however show you how to take "Roadbumps" & "Road Textures" (both mono), from Simvibe and mix these with "SSW". That would enhance bumps too but unlike the "audio tactile" generate much more tarmac detail. Although we start complicating things a bit and increasing the user hassle factor. Personally Id just prefer to wait and see if in time Andre ignores the suggested improvements or decides to include them for the beta version.

 

[Balroque]

Great job on your rig Ceolmor and well done with all work you and Mr. Latte did on this thread
I'm planning similar project; ideas and discussions here are very useful and helpful

As I would like to discuss my challenges, pictures and solutions somewhere, Im wondering if that would be better to do it here, as it is a similar project, or maybe it is not appropriate and I should setup new thread. As this is your thread Ceolmor, what do you think?

Just few insight what I would like to do:
At the moment, I have Obutto R3v, 4x ADX in CM with 2xSML 98 (based on discussion with Mr. Latter a year ago ), 1x buttkicker gamer under the seat, OSW Big Mige, HE Ultimate, curved 48” 4k TV, (two Clark 339 sitting in the box at the moment)

The project is to
- build an sturdy 8020 rig based mostly on Simlab P1 design, HE Rig and few tips from Obutto
- take vibrations to another level and decrease the noise and isolate it as best as possible - in reasonable price range

some of the challenges:
- where and how to position 4 bass shakers to be as effective as possible in CM and isolated from all other parts, where to put EM bass shakers (seat, shifter, etc)
- Where to attach "rear wheels shakers" – to rig or seat. If the "rear wheels" are attached to the seat and isolated, put the buttkicker still under the seat? it seems to be too much in same place, however it could simulate engine vibrations. If they will be attached to rig, it would transfer vibrations to whole rig
- where to attach "front wheels" - pedal tray vs rig and where to isolate
- the floor is wooden with a carpet on it, beneath are living tenants at ground floor, paying really well and obviously I don't want them move out because of earthquake
-rig itself is in nook in living room, so the access is only on one side, as from the other sides are walls. It means entrance, keyboard tray and the shifter with hand break must be from one side.
- because of the nook there is no way to have 3 monitors, that's why I chose curved tv, -4k curved TV is very tall and must be placed behind Mige, which reduces FOV

When it will be clear if I will start new thread or use this one I will start to share some pictures

thanks for reading
Vic

 

[Ceolmor]

Hi Vic

Thanks for your comments. I am not so precious about this thread that I would have a problem with you using it for your build. However, as the title of this thread is about starting out with tactile immersion for the first time, and your project is more an upgrade from your existing tactile immersion, you might want to consider starting a separate thread. I'm happy, either way.

I like my 80/20 rig. Very sturdy, looks good and has the ability to change everything about when you want or need to.

With the ADX and BK Gamer, I would be inclined to isolate them completely from the 80/20 profiles, as I have done. My current set up of the shakers being attached to mild steel plates to which the seat brackets and pedal plate are attached works better than attaching the shakers to 80/20 profiles of the seat and pedal sections. My theory (quite possibly wrong) is the less weight the shakers have to move the better.

I haven't tried attaching my BK Advance to the seat direct, as I read a post of someone who tried this and said it was awful. But with all this tactile immersion, it is trial and error at the end of the day, as no two setups are ever the same. I also think what sort of seat you have is important. I have a fibreglass racing seat, with no metal or wooden parts to it.

As to noise, my rig is noisy. How noisy depends on what software I am using and, probably more crucially, how much you turn it up. When I first introduced the mild steel plate to the rig my wife reported it was quieter, but I used that as the OK to turn up the volume/energy to get more tactile feedback. So now she complains it is noisier than before. I know there is a lot more I could do to reduce noise, but I need to get a balance between constantly fiddling with tactile immersion and actually driving in sims.

I have the same issue as you with the rig in a corner and only accessible on one side. Makes it a nightmare when trying to change things on the rig.

With the high end hardware you have, and limited space, have you looked at going VR? I have small MIGE with HE Pros and Oculus Rift, and it is all amazing.