FSR 2013 - Rfactor 2 or Assetto Corsa?

[Thomas Mundy]

I don't find rF2's physics that bad personally. Plus of course mod teams can get round that by improving them anyway. My problem with it is I suspect we would have about an 8 round season because there aren't enough tracks. For those who weren't paying attention to my earlier post as well, rF1 already has a weather plugin.

 

[Ville Leppala]

No rF2 please. It's not a proper sim simply because G27 support is non-existent.

I have no problems with my G27.

 

[John-Eric Saxén]

It is worth noting that rFactor does not currently work under Windows 8. Or rather, its trymedia protection doesn't. This means that anyone buying a new PC can forget about using rFactor the legal way...

 

[Milan Radivojevic]

It is worth noting that rFactor does not currently work under Windows 8. Or rather, its trymedia protection doesn't. This means that anyone buying a new PC can forget about using rFactor the legal way...

Thats why I will always use Windows XP


M.Radivojevic

 

[Mo Selvarajah]

Mo Selvarajah

Which is why i say in my post:

'i know that hes talking about project cars, but what he describes is 100% the problem with rfactor. Its probably even worse with rfactor physics.'


Thanks for reading.

 

[Ron Squire]

Thats why I will always use Windows XP


M.Radivojevic

here here

 

[Miroslav Davidovic]

You are welcome.

I know what you are talking about mate. I have fallowed your discussion at the ISI forums about that. I honestly think you are wrong.

SOME of the videos which the other fellas have posted didn't prove you wrong as some of them did't quite get it what you were talking about BUT I think you have to try harder to reach the so called "over the limit". (which i anyway think doesn't exist cuz as soon you are over the limit you are crashing, spinning or whatever)
Me thinks it's rather "on the edge" than "over the limit". lol

But let me just say i don't want to start a discussion about that. That is just my opinion as you have yours.

 

[Mo Selvarajah]

You are welcome.

I know what you are talking about mate. I have fallowed your discussion at the ISI forums about that. I honestly think you are wrong.

SOME of the videos which the other fellas have posted didn't prove you wrong as some of them did't quite get it what you were talking about BUT I think you have to try harder to reach the so called "over the limit". (which i anyway think doesn't exist cuz as soon you are over the limit you are crashing, spinning or whatever)
Me thinks it's rather "on the edge" than "over the limit". lol

But let me just say i don't want to start a discussion about that. That is just my opinion as you have yours.

sorry its not an opinion.
There are some basic truths about driving, handling, and what a car is like on and over the limit.

Ben Collins describes everything that is wrong with current simracing.

Also you clearly dont know what i am talking about, because you said 'he is talking about pcars dude'.

Again just to be clear, i say in my post 'i know hes talking about pcars but'
+ Ben Collins says in his post that its an issue he finds in other sim racing games (i should have posted the whole thing)

So i hope ive made that clear enough.

Also over the limit doesnt mean crashing or spinning. When you refer to over the limit, it means Tyre Grip limit. Well, you can still be in control and over the limit. WHat do you think drifting is?

Despite all the evidence, despite the Ben Collins post, you still refuse to believe lol.
Well, this isn't an opinion, you are definitely wrong.

I understand english isnt your first language (i mean that sincerely, i wish i could speak another language), so I advise you to read Ben Collins post carefully, a few times, to fully understand what hes talking about.

 

[GamerMuscle]

Ben Collins is bang on the money what he describes and can be found to a grater or lesser extent in every simulator on the market. They all suffer from the messed up tire grip on the limit issue.

If developers can implement what Ben has said in that post then not only will simulators be allot more enjoyable to drive but the quality of close competitive racing will improve ,with racing being more about driving on the limit side by side and strategy rather than memorising the track and then praying you don't end up in any of the strange physics situations.

Granted NKP and FVA have issues but they are the closest to modelling the core aspect of how a car moves and what it is to drive a car on the limit.

I hope AC gets finished soon to me it looks like that will be the most promising of the next gen simulators I would be delighted if RD and the Mod Scene went with AC as to me it seems the most likely to deliver what the community is looking for.

 

[David Dominguez]

Tire modelling is a very complex area. First of all, we have to keep in mind that rF2 tire model isn't even finished...

What you describe Mo, and that Ben Collins, is a well known problem (grip level after the peak) in racing simulations, basically because there is no way to measure such things. On a tire testing machine you can measure the lateral forces at several slip angles, cambers, tire pressures, speeds, vertical loads, etc, but it is usually done in a small range of slip angles (usually less than 12deg). The raw data is also very noisy, I think Niels wrote an interesting document about this some time ago. So, it's not really possible to know certainly how the tire will behave at really big slip angles.

That's mainly the problem of the games who are based on a Pacejka tire model (ISI's games, the old iRacing tire model also had a similar system, etc), which means that you have to design a basic slip curve, which is affected by different parameters on the sim (the same parameters I mentioned for the tire testing machine). With such method you can make a set of tires that can match pretty good the real ones (if you have such data) in the lower slip angles, but after that it's just a guessing game. Some sim developer can think that the tire must loose a crazy amount of grip, and another can think that it shouldn't loose grip at all. At the end they are just programmers... It has also some other issues, for what I've been told, for example when combining lateral and longitudinal forces.

That's why the current generation of sims are trying a different approach (at least rF2 and iRacing, no idea about AC), based more on the tire construction rather than on a empirical approach. Both sims are still struggling in some areas, but I believe they will behave much better in some time, with more experience and knowledge. It's something incredibly complex to develope, and needs time, time and time. But at the end, if it's done properly, they won't need to worry about the lack of tire testing data and the lack of data mentioned at higher slip angles.

Edit: Here it is explained by someone with better knowledge than me (and better english I guess : http://www.h-engineering.nl/uploads/Tires in race simulations 20120209.pdf

 

[Miroslav Davidovic]

sorry its not an opinion.
There are some basic truths about driving, handling, and what a car is like on and over the limit.

Ben Collins describes everything that is wrong with current simracing.

Also you clearly dont know what i am talking about, because you said 'he is talking about pcars dude'.

Again just to be clear, i say in my post 'i know hes talking about pcars but'
+ Ben Collins says in his post that its an issue he finds in other sim racing games (i should have posted the whole thing)

So i hope ive made that clear enough.

Also over the limit doesnt mean crashing or spinning. When you refer to over the limit, it means Tyre Grip limit. Well, you can still be in control and over the limit. WHat do you think drifting is?

Despite all the evidence, despite the Ben Collins post, you still refuse to believe lol.
Well, this isn't an opinion, you are definitely wrong.

I understand english isnt your first language (i mean that sincerely, i wish i could speak another language), so I advise you to read Ben Collins post carefully, a few times, to fully understand what hes talking about.

Jeez, i am to old to have discussions like this one.
Let me just tell you this.
I think I am free to have an opinion build up on my own experience and
I don't need a pope to tell me what I have to believe.
You can post under 100 different names and it won't change anything.

 

[Ika Tsitsilashvili]

atm i think rf1 best 2 use again than other sims i liked rf2 much better than rf1 but its not final build and lil bugs have game also need lil monster pc play wit many drivers lol

 

[Ville Leppala]

atm i think rf1 best 2 use again than other sims i liked rf2 much better than rf1 but its not final build and lil bugs have game also need lil monster pc play wit many drivers lol

rf2 works better then rf for me lol

 

[Johannes Kunkel]

rF2 will be properly tested before it´s used in the season of course, so you can expect some races over the winter.

 

[Laurent Keersmaekers]

Nice discussion. As from an engineers point of view I have to say the best available game at the moment is BY FAR NetKar Pro. Tyre modelling seems to be the most accurate in this game, as well as the kinematics of the car's suspensions. For those who didn't try the game ==> just buy it and drive. Therefore I'm also looking forward to the release of AC.

As for the tyre modelling, I don't really like the discussions regarding this topic. First of all the Pacejka model only has troubles when the velocity approaches 0 (singular point let's say). This problem is solved by using an alternative model from 0-20m/s, which you never reach when driving properly. Also the region causing issues at high slip angles isn't really an issue in F1 racing. In optimal conditions you reach the maximum friction at +-6° slip angle, and anything above this value will slow you down. I agree problems can arise when you want to do some drift races or rallying in some way. However this problem has nothing to do with Pacejka's model, but rather the data taken from the Tyre Test Consortium.

About the combination of longitudinal and lateral forces being 'bad': this is only our own mistake. The combination of these forces is a linear combination of the lateral and longitudinal grip curves, scaled with parameters. Of course, when someone tweaks these parameters without knowledge, the tyre will feel rubbish. Probably no one here in FSR is able to fully understand the Pacejka tyre model in order to have a realistic tyre feeling. Even real F1 teams have issues on this topic. (example ==> McLaren contracted a bridgestone engineer in july 2011, and this immediatelly gave them better results)

 

[Ika Tsitsilashvili]

ville for me also but wen more than 20 people joins ion server also simrcing tv you can get lag im preaty sure for it

 

[David Dominguez]

Nice discussion. As from an engineers point of view I have to say the best available game at the moment is BY FAR NetKar Pro. Tyre modelling seems to be the most accurate in this game, as well as the kinematics of the car's suspensions. For those who didn't try the game ==> just buy it and drive. Therefore I'm also looking forward to the release of AC.

I agree. GSC does a really nice job, too. That's the reason why I am interested in AC...

As for the tyre modelling, I don't really like the discussions regarding this topic. First of all the Pacejka model only has troubles when the velocity approaches 0 (singular point let's say). This problem is solved by using an alternative model from 0-20m/s, which you never reach when driving properly. Also the region causing issues at high slip angles isn't really an issue in F1 racing. In optimal conditions you reach the maximum friction at +-6° slip angle, and anything above this value will slow you down. I agree problems can arise when you want to do some drift races or rallying in some way. However this problem has nothing to do with Pacejka's model, but rather the data taken from the Tyre Test Consortium.

Well, 20m/s is low for a F1, but not so low for all cars! If we talk only about F1, yes it's not a big deal. That 2nd tire model is not applied by the physics engine itself also, it has to be specified in the .tbc (something that was done for the first time in FSR this season). About the second comment, we have to take in consideration all driving situations. On normal driving you want to stay close to such slip angles, but mistakes (even small) can make you go over that limit easily. And that over-limit is usually not checked on a tire testing machine, there is little info about that, so it's hard to know how should it be. And that point is something that can make some simracers happy or angry

About the combination of longitudinal and lateral forces being 'bad': this is only our own mistake. The combination of these forces is a linear combination of the lateral and longitudinal grip curves, scaled with parameters. Of course, when someone tweaks these parameters without knowledge, the tyre will feel rubbish. Probably no one here in FSR is able to fully understand the Pacejka tyre model in order to have a realistic tyre feeling. Even real F1 teams have issues on this topic. (example ==> McLaren contracted a bridgestone engineer in july 2011, and this immediatelly gave them better results)

I was told this by someone who has been writting tire models since the pre-history, so I trust him. But I can't say what exactly the issues are, or how wrong it is...

 

[Chris Knight]

I realy doubt either game will be out by the time we need it. So I think safely can say another season of rf it should be.

 

[Thomas Mundy]

What I want to know is what tracks we are expecting to use next year if it is rFactor 2? Do we have a modelling team for tracks in place that can convert rFactor 1 tracks or from other sims? Because why do I fear an eight race season or something lower than this year. All that does is give more time to practice each event and ultimately ends up in more predictable results.

 

[Chris Knight]

It is worth noting that rFactor does not currently work under Windows 8. Or rather, its trymedia protection doesn't. This means that anyone buying a new PC can forget about using rFactor the legal way...

Im using windows 8 and it works ok for me.