Foundation to a Good Rally Sim

[Eddie Mann]

Some of you may have already seen this, interesting read from the perspective of Eero Piitulainen (lead physics programmer RBR), so many variables to get right when it comes to tire modeling, huge respect!

http://issuu.com/autosimsportmediallc/docs/autosimsport_magazine_volume5issue3_r1/103

Personally i think Eero (and who ever did the FFB?) is the link to a RBR successor as his input clearly separates RBR from everyone else in the handling department.

He's currently in good company working with Slightly Mad Studio's - contracted by EA games to develop the NFS SHIFT franchise, Slightly Mad Studio's is also made up of ex Blimey Games (Simbin's GTL & GTR2) dev's and former CEO Ian bell.

I think Slightly Mad have definitely got the talent and the experience to produce a rally simulation title that could improve on RBR, however as slightly mad is still a relatively young company they are pretty much still paying the bills and therefore unlikely to skew away from the Gig they have with EA, like some, i suspect this is why SHIFT was never a full blown SIM, which is a sure fire way to limit your customer appeal (a No-No for EA?), also being the first title in the new NFS series, the approach looks to have been 'easing' the mostly hardcore arcade NFS camp into something with more of a SIM feel. I hope Shift2 due out end of the month is more sim than arcade, not holding my breath as the trend today seems to be anything released on console will have to appeal to a broad audience.

Could be waiting a while, but if Slightly Mad retain Eero and get to choose future projects separate frm EA, with more focus on simulation, interesting things could happen?

Just rambling..

 

[Terri Buenaflor]

I think the reason why their are less rally sim coming out today its because, hmm I think 50%++ of the consumers are kids and kids doesn't want a game that is hard to play thats why developers are focusing more on making a game that the consumers wants.

speaking of new rally sim I want to see this following features since I think the the developers talent and the tech today can make it possible:

1. lining up to start the rally
2. changing traction(gravel/snow) depending on your track/starting position
3. driving in public roads back to the service park under time pressure

 

[Roy Magnes]

3. driving in public roads back to the service park under time pressure

And then loosing your driving license and having your codriver to do the final stages of the rally

 

[Ondrej Kapal]

and getting your friend from a work to get into the car on his PC

back to the topic, this means new Rally sims (brand new) is coming? More realistic?

 

[Ryan Callan]

I'm pretty sure that Shift 2 will be more 'sim' than Shift 1, simply because it's a natural progression and there are two arms of the NFS franchise now, with Hot Pursuit.

 

[Rick Bamford]

But NFS is still not a rally game. maybe we should be taking up a pertition to pass on of the guys from rallyesim, the czech plugin and anyone else to show that there is a big enough market for even RBR 2.

If rallyesim has 4000+ drivers this year alone howmany others ar out there playing RBR offline or on other sites. we should be able to show 10,000+ drivers worldwide currently WAITING for a true rally sim.

 

[Jeremy Loveland]

But NFS is still not a rally game. maybe we should be taking up a pertition to pass on of the guys from rallyesim, the czech plugin and anyone else to show that there is a big enough market for even RBR 2.

If rallyesim has 4000+ drivers this year alone howmany others ar out there playing RBR offline or on other sites. we should be able to show 10,000+ drivers worldwide currently WAITING for a true rally sim.

Yeah sounds like an idea, sign me up

quick question: on the whole everyone wanting a NEW rally sim to move onto was anyone else here looking forward to the release of the WRC game only to be realy disapointed with it?

 

[Łukasz Demolin]

This kind of title (true RBR successor) would not sell astonishigly; there is a remedy for that however - build on the know foundations (take an already developed, amortized and refined engine (low cost)), don't kill yourself for licences (instead incorporate an easy to mod structure, similar to those of GTL/rFactor + good API documentation), also don't squeeze too much in terms of graphics (RBR level is very good. No real need to pack in all those useless blurs and all). Tracks would be a biggest hurdle, since they can take a lot of time to model (cost). That shouldn't prevent adding of an interface supporting new tracks though.

BTB support might seem good, but really BTB tracks for RBR aren't really good (surface fidelity/grip, collisions), so we would need documantion/api of sorts for trackmakers too.

Limiting the expenses and using a bit older technology might really work; if the RBR wouldn't be so non-mod friendly we wouldn't really need a successor (even though physics refined by their maker would be fantastic). Seeing what SMS done with NFS series (Shift wasn't wonderful, but miles ahead older iterations) you gave me some hope there, Eddie .

 

[Senad Subasic]

A couple of interesting posts from Shift 2 devs, I believe.

http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1345481&postcount=164

http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1345765&postcount=238

 

[Aaron DeMarre]

The only thing I have seen with a glimmer of hope is this: http://www.racedepartment.com/other-racing-games/48801-grally.html

This is from a developer of RBR-Online (the Italian mod). If he can pull it off, it has promise.

 

[Eddie Mann]

Good to see some hope from GRally.. fingers crossed?, please don't be another Dirt 2/3 or WRC2010? lol, fun but not sim.

Further to Senad's links.. VR net has posted a non-formal idea for future development from Ian Bell CEO SMS, could be a chance to get the Rally SIM you always wanted in a DX11 environment? you got to start somewhere for the next gen in Rally 'SIM' Imo, don't get me wrong i love what Rallysim and others are doing, i just think it's going to take some serious $$ to take the Rally SIM genre and utilize today's graphics horsepwr and track modeling techniques. End result being a base platform that can be user developed for the next 5-10 years.

http://www.virtualr.net/ian-bell-on-possible-slightly-mad-studios-future/

The seed has been planted, will be interesting to see if the idea gets traction and get's past first base? keeping my expectations seriously low lol, who knows? Still, good to hear one of the big guns is willing to give it a shot, at the very least i'll make a comment at VR or NoGrip to give them some idea on the level of interest, as Ian seems to be responding there.

We could make a wish list to generate discussion and to get feedbk from Ian to see how realistic it would be to implement before getting into user based investment? just an idea?

 

[Warren Dawes]

We could make a wish list to generate discussion and to get feedbk from Ian to see how realistic it would be to implement before getting into user based investment? just an idea?

I doubt that there would be a userbase large enough and willing to meet the expensive development costs for a modern day, and very extensive new Sim.
As I have said before, I would be more than happy to see the current RBR / RSRBR2010 expanded and improved to include many new Stages using the current RBR software. This would be even better if the Stages could be based on existing WRC Stages. I think the graphic quality is ok as it is, but maybe some improvements to account for newer technology, so long as it doesn't mean we all need super computers to run it smoothly. I find many of the newer Rally "Games" look overcoloured/cartoony and not realistic anyway, but place big demands on PC resources.
More varied and longer RBR style Stages would satisfy me.
The current range of Cars in RSRBR2011 (based on 3rd party development) is fine for me, why spend lots of money to re-invent the wheel.
A better / more user friendly user interface (using mouse clicking) would also be great.

We have a great base in RBR, upgrading that would be a huge step forward, rather than requiring a massive investment cost to totally build a whole new Sim for a limited audience. Let's face it, most new "games" are designed for a mass market console appeal, and highly realistic Rally Sims like RBR don't meet this demand. :frown:

.. fingers crossed?, please don't be another Dirt 2/3 or WRC2010?

Couldn't agree more. ray:

 

[Rick Bamford]

I know it looks like I am attacking Warren here, but I am not and do not want people to think that. I am just very passionate about this topic and Warren is the poor guy that has posted something for me to sink my teeth into.:wink:

The current range of Cars in RSRBR2011 (based on 3rd party development) is fine for me, why spend lots of money to re-invent the wheel.
A better / more user friendly user interface (using mouse clicking) would also be great.

I agree with Warren ONLY in the fact the we NEED longer and more varied stages. If the guys currently building the stages started getting along with each other again and stopped being so anal about the "realistic" detail they try to put into them we already WOULD have.

However, and here is the MASSIVE issue, these guys ARE doing it for FREE. We have been SPOILED by the dedication of some very talented people that do not charge for their work. If RSRBR started charging for the download (I have not heard ANYTHING like this happening, it is just a question) would people still play it? Would anyone be willing to pay for an addon that has the bugs that RSRBR has...............................I would, and i would be willing to pay 200+ euros for a rally sim that beats RBR.

There are almost 5000 drivers signed up for RSRBR this year, if they all put in 10 euro per week to a new game..............2.5 mil. And that doesn't include the guys at czech plugin and the others. Just think, 10 euro per week for a game with lots of longs stages, a modern interface and the polish and professionalism of a modern game (BTW, i agree that the new rally games graphics just look WRONG:wink A game that we can play for another 15-20 years if it can be modded and something you had a say in creating.

Tell me that is NOT worth it!!!

What happens when Microsoft releases the next OS that does NOT allow old programs like RBR to run. We will all be stuffed. It is not a matter of "re-inventing the wheel", it is a mtter of life that we are using a game that was made almost 10 years ago to work on an outdated operating system. We NEED to start looking at moving on or at least fully upgrading RBR (which will cost just as much) before we are all left out in the cold.

If we don't.................you better start to enjoy WRC2010 because that is all we will have left.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

We could make a wish list to generate discussion and to get feedbk from Ian to see how realistic it would be to implement before getting into user based investment? just an idea?

:thumb:

 

[Dariusz Swiderski]

Would anyone be willing to pay for an addon that has the bugs that RSRBR has...............................I would, and i would be willing to pay 200+ euros for a rally sim that beats RBR.

Tell me that is NOT worth it!!!

Well, its NOT worth it to me Rick. I would NEVER pay 200 euros for ANY game, however good it may be. I would be willing to pay 30-40 euros max for a new rally game ( it would need to be significantly more modern and better then RBR ).

We all know you are passionate about rallying Rick ( to the point you disregard all the other form of sim-racing ), but you need to remember you are in the tiny minority of sim-racers in your view. I love rallying as an addon to my sim-racing, not as the main interest, and i would NEVER pay through the nose just to have a new rally sim. I would rather stick with RBR, and i,m willing to keep my old rig for as long as it takes to play on it.

 

[DeepJKL_FIN]

RICK: "I would, and i would be willing to pay 200+ euros for a rally sim that beats RBR.

There are almost 5000 drivers signed up for RSRBR this year, if they all put in 10 euro per week to a new game..............2.5 mil. And that doesn't include the guys at czech plugin and the others.

Tell me that is NOT worth it!!!"

For me the next step in idea level is to get this kind of technology all over the planet and get WorldChampionship Status for the virtual rallying:

[video]http://youtu.be/4JJXTn_9W8E[/video]

Driver: Ville Kivimaa, Finland
Simulator: Team Simrac www.simrac.com

I don't need the rig home... just that virtual racing overall will get more pr and it will grow to it's full potential. The simulator above is the next logical step between RichardBurnsRally and real rallycar. The skills learned in RBR help a LOT with that sim, but real rally pilots drive faster in the sim. When it is IMHO a hardcore simulator and physics engine.

I stoped getting drunk in bars... i use my money to drive the real Ford Focus WRC chassi on motion platform by simrac. Very much fun! Welcome to Finland... to the stronghold of rallying... i bet that there is couple of guys on this forum who will drop their trip to Thailand...

 

[Dariusz Swiderski]

I would defo pay 200 euros for this setup

 

[Terri Buenaflor]

A couple of interesting posts from Shift 2 devs, I believe.

http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1345481&postcount=164

http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1345765&postcount=238

I hope they found an investor/publisher for it

 

[Pedro Lima]

well this topic must be born again ..

everything that we need in my opinion is a browser game, i dream with iRallying ..

I will create a topic in the iRacing forum on the subject, see you there