For motion platform users: could you driveo without it?

[commandant.brioche]

Is it like driving without force feedback wheel? Or bass shakers? (The only devices i own that help a lot with immersion )
Once you've tried, could you race without having them?
Or is it really a must have if one can afford them?
What about traction loss? Is it as indispensable as pitch, roll, heave?

 

[OlaGB]

The funny part is that when you add really good tactile, I could completely give up motion for track racing.

For Rally and flight, motion adds a lot more to the immersion than on a track.

The combination of excellent FFB, tactile and a G-Belt does an outstanding job by itself at least in VR.

That depends on the choice of motion systems as well i guess?
Some systems does not even have tactile feedback, while others (Dbox, DK2 etc) seems to be very good at it.
And then there’s everything in between.

Ive got a mid-level tactile system today (basicly just 4 mini-lfe’s and acouple amps, but i’m about to go for a good tactile motion system soon instead of further develop the tactiles.
Might keep the tactiles as an addition though.

 

[RCHeliguy]

That depends on the choice of motion systems as well i guess?
Some systems does not even have tactile feedback, while others (Dbox, DK2 etc) seems to be very good at it.
And then there’s everything in between.

Ive got a mid-level tactile system today (basicly just 4 mini-lfe’s and acouple amps, but i’m about to go for a good tactile motion system soon instead of further develop the tactiles.
Might keep the tactiles as an addition though.

Motion systems can only do tactile so well. It's just like how transducers can't multitask well and how you require multiple transducers for some effects and additional transducers for overlapping effects.

I would suggest that you haven't experienced good tactile yet. 4 mini lfe's is barely scratching the surface. Not enough power and not enough range.

 

[d69morpwr]

Thanks for the reply...I have one buttkicker right under my ass. With simhub, it's giving feedback for road texture, road impacts and gear shift... I definetely love it and wouldn't want to race without but I'm wondering if I'm missing something... when I'm reading that some would put it ahead of motion (disclaimer: my motion system is on the way but I really have very little experience about motion systems )

Obviously thats a personal opinion. A lot like vr. Personally i would lose tactile before motion. Yes i havent gone crazy with tactile like some here and just have .4 buttkickers which work great for what i use them for at this point. Just engine rpm and road texture. Everything else comes from motion. I dont think there is really a right or wrong here and both compliment each other really well.

 

[metalnwood]

Just in case it was I that ordered tactile ahead, when I made my list it was with the assumption that motion would be there.

I wsa talking about a plan forward from scratch that gave best benefits for any outlay. So while full motion could take some time to save up for, modest tactile would be nice to tide you over. So an investment there would be good, i.e. lets say it takes you a year to save for motion. It would be better to save 15 months for it and have had tactile for 12 months of that.

They shouldnt be seen as exclusive, much like I wouldnt rule out a DD wheel because I got motion.

To me, it's a no brainer to add some level of tactile, then motion and then beef up the tactile if both were your goal and had neither.

I think where it gets hard for people is when its suggested that they spend as much as a motion system on tactile when they dont have either. You can see and get some understanding what motion will bring, its much harder to see that with tactile.

 

[Mr Latte]

I think one of the best D-Box reviews I have seen covering the question of this thread.
Is from the late William Marsh, possibly was also his last video and I believe one of the best he ever did.

To compare tactile to motion, this greatly will depend on the "quality level of effects", "installation method" and "hardware used" that the user experiences.

While a motion rig product will deliver the same performance to each owner using it.
Tactile will differ greatly and few on these forums have ever got to realise what the true possibilities with tactile are....

One is not a replacement for the other, yet I would say audio/tactile generates emotion. While motion generates amusement/entertainment. Both can increase involvement but I've yet to see a build yet, which truly combines the best of both.

 

[metalnwood]

One is not a replacement for the other, yet I would say audio/tactile generates emotion. While motion generates amusement/entertainment.

He says even in his video others feel completely different than he does. You may have just found something to confirm your thoughts

He is absolutely correct that motion may not help you be competitive. I race in VR with motion and I think the experience is quite different than racing with monitors and motion.

Right now the radical is racing at imola at iracing and turn 14/15 is a good example of the difference he is talking about. Without motion you go over those kerbs and power off. With motion you do the same thing but unlike without, you seem to really have to trust the car is planted and stable. You wont be slower but if you have not used motion for a while you may get the impression the car is a lot less stable than it actually is.

It's a barrier you have to work through but one thing I couldnt say is that it doesnt generate emotion and only amusement.

I am sure you understand thta the tuning of the motion is as much a part of getting it right as it is for tactile.

 

[Mr Latte]

Sensory involvement

A) Turn off audio and tactile and use motion with visuals only.
B) Turn off motion and use headphones/tactile with visuals only.

Which do you think on our senses has the greater impact when not operating?
Some could argue that “B” may even offer more emotion and entertainment.

 

[metalnwood]

Sensory involvement

A) Turn off audio and tactile and use motion with visuals only.
B) Turn off motion and use headphones/tactile with visuals only.

Which do you think on our senses has the greater impact when not operating?
Some could argue that “B” may even offer more emotion and entertainment.

Have you tried using tactile and audio but no wheel attached? How does that work?

 

[Mr Latte]

Have you tried using tactile and audio but no wheel attached? How does that work?

Yes I’ve done that for the last 15 or so months….
It works fine and you can feel rumble in the pad working in tandem with the tactile.

You still benefit with the inputs you are applying and the sensory inclusion of what you see/ hear combining with what you feel. That’s not to say a wheel/pedals would not further the immersion as of course they would.

 

[metalnwood]

The racing experience can't be very good in my hypothetical made up scenario though? No wheel and no pad, thats cheating.

It seems you are trying to prove through arbitrary points that one must be amusement and one must be emotive and thats just not the case.

 

[Mr Latte]

The racing experience can't be very good in my hypothetical made up scenario though? No wheel and no pad, thats cheating.

It seems you are trying to prove through arbitrary points that one must be amusement and one must be emotive and thats just not the case.

I’m not trying to prove anything, im sharing my own opinions. Music/audio is emotional and it can be even more emotional/involving with felt vibration. As building a new rig I’ve not had my wheel/pedals connected, it does not stop me from having casual fun for the time being. It’s temporary man.

The A B examples allow wheel/pedals

I will buy the fancy wheel/pedals for when the rig build and tactile is complete. My own rig is being built around tactile so my approach is different. Like some others I am not a die hard sim racer but I still want to experience sim racing to a very high standard.

Personally I’d like a harness with the tactile before adding the motion.
Although yes long term I could be tempted to go with motion.

 

[Lesthegringo]

My two pence worth; I recently tried VR and loved it, but only once I connected my NLR V3. Without it, half a lap and I was feeling nauseous.

It really helps to make my brain accept the visual stuff that is happening.

Now, before I had VR? Yes, I think that I would still say it was worth it, though maybe less fervently. Definitely more immersion, but certainly less essential.

For VR, wholehearted support. Without VR, nice to have but probably on its own is a bit difficult to justify.

Les

 

[RCHeliguy]

For VR, wholehearted support. Without VR, nice to have but probably on its own is a bit difficult to justify.

Les

I've got an NLRv3 as well and I agree that it helps with nausea especially in rally games!

However the tactile I'm getting now which is MASSIVELY better than before seriously gets you that immersion factor and also tricks your brain. Granted the Tactile I have now cost as much as an NLRv3, but it gives me more than the NLRv3 does "on the track".

In Rally motion starts to matter more.

In flight I would miss motion in a very big way!

 

[SigmaMotion]

Is it like driving without force feedback wheel? Or bass shakers? (The only devices i own that help a lot with immersion )
Once you've tried, could you race without having them?
Or is it really a must have if one can afford them?
What about traction loss? Is it as indispensable as pitch, roll, heave?

Let's first realize that all the technologies that we use to enjoy this sport virtually are 1st world luxuries.

Secondly, I would submit that most people drive visually, so visuals are 80% of the experience/immersion if you will. Again just my opinion, many would disagree. Haptics and tactile feedback are often also over used marketing words. A FFB wheel is also haptic and tactile.

So could you race without a wheel on a controller? Ofcourse, sure! I did it for many years and still raced cars and enjoyed both. Is it really a must have? No, motion is NOT a must have I would argue, you can have as much fun with a controller, old wheel etc... the true fun is in the content, the competitive team play, the comradery or the few moments that we interact in a virtual environment and have fun.

Now the details. Traction loss is one of those "effects" or layers of motion that in my opinion is really hard to reproduce and hence why people often use "fake" effects of roll to reproduce or to communicate vehicle yaw/sway. Proper loss of traction systems would have to be bolted to the floor, and have very large motors/torque to ensure that the sway/yaw would not get washed out after several side to side lateral motions (like in rally and/or rallyX). Furthermore the games would need to be synced with the lateral motion, otherwise you slide inside the cockpit, while the car on the screen stays still or fix mount the screens to the cockpit. Lots of total "integration" is required to make this truly believable. But in the end, I believe that a sudden sharp acceleration, in physics called a jerk moment, is sufficient in communicating to the driver, in time, what is happening and how they should in turn react/respond. Most people can fill in the missing gaps where the motion system is lacking.

But Yes, motion systems are immersive if done well and integrated well mechanically, electrically and algorithmically. It's a very rewarding and immersive experience.

One good way to test motion immersion is to do 20-30 minutes in a motion sim so that your mind gets used to it. And then turn it off for the next 5 minutes. You will see how quickly we change our levels of 'acceptable' immersion and how much you will miss a fine tuned motion system. In essence it fills in that last 20%, and the visuals are close to 80%.

Again this is all my professional opinion, after being in the industry for 20+ years. In the end I've learned that there are no perfect solutions to motion, just compromises we have to make based on product limitations, environment limitations, software limitations or budget.

Enjoy!

 

[anton_Chez]

Absolutely can drive without it and have gone from 2 separate systems back to a static chassis.