PC1 FFB buggy after patch 2.0 (possibly went weird in patch 1.4). Here is a temporary solution:

Spent 8 hours today "fixing" the broken FFB system. Here are the results for Logitech DFGT (possibly G25 / G27) and Thrustmaster Tx 458 (possibly T500 and T300 too).

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?33699-Temporary-solution-for-FFB-BUG-Logitech-DFGT-(possibly-G25-G27-too)

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?33710-Temporary-solution-for-FFB-BUG-Thrustmaster-TX-458-(may-work-for-T500-T300)

Hope it helps somebody.

mod-edit: please add the relevant content here in your post
 
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Yes, all these options are in console too. I´ve only messed a bit with general scale and X,Y,Z axis on some cars. Everything else is default and it works OK with T500 on default settings too.

Some of the worst problems I´ve had were solved with the in car allignment setup. Like the Formula A. By default the steering is extremelly hard in the center and goes extremelly light once past 15º turn in any direction. That made hard even going where you wanted with all 4 wheels well within grip limits. It was nonsense, plenty of FB in the center and then you had no clue what the front was doing in the corners.

After messing about with FFB stuff, I discovered some allignment changes make the steering much more linear in terms of the effort you have to do to turn.
 
By default the steering is extremelly hard in the center and goes extremelly light once past 15º turn in any direction.
After messing about with FFB stuff, I discovered some allignment changes make the steering much more linear in terms of the effort you have to do to turn.

I have this problem too, and I really hate it. The point where I need the most info through the wheel is where I get the least info and I hate the light feeling in the turns. Adjusting the arm angle helps a little, but not as much as I'd like. Do you have any tips on how to adjust the alignment to get rid of this (I'm rubbish at tuning)?
 
The FFB is merely acceptable for a racing game. It has always been like that in my subjective opinion. All the way through the builds. Lets hope they can unravel this horrible mess. As for the myriad of over complicated FFB adjustments, well they are just not wanted or needed. Are they present on the console versions? I can hardly see console users messing for hour after hour dialling in some sort of usable FFB.

I really do hope they can sort this out to an acceptable degree with presets.

I understand and respect why you would opine that the 'over complicated FFB adjustments' are not wanted.

But I would also like to take this opportunity to illustrate why we felt the FFB adjustments were indeed needed, and how we approached the solution to the FFB wheel problem in general.

FFB Presets vs FFB Mixer

We had a lot of discussion back and forth with AJ about which options to expose and how (in an ideal world) we'd have both the advanced options and then later on -- once we'd explored more of the FFB problem space -- we'd introduce something that looks more like a traditional amplifier with a few knobs (like bass, mid, treble, loudness) for people to twiddle. We had hoped to include both in the released product, but compromises needed to be made and here we are.

What we have now is the FFB studio mixer table where you can 'engineer' the FFB to your tastes. What we hope to introduce with presets is something approaching the 'pop', 'rock', 'jazz', 'hip-hop' presets that some software music players offer. You could even argue that this is also what Jack Spade (and earlier in development, yours truly) has been doing all along with his FFB presets.

FFB Response and Linearity

Now for a bit of background: Different FFB wheel models don't respond the same to similar inputs. And in fact, there is also variability within each type of wheel. So even if David Ignjatovic and I were to each use our own G27 wheels, the two of us using the exact same pCARS FFB settings might not yield the exact same response from our wheels all else being equal.

For instance, it took a while to discover that on e.g. G27 wheels, if you set the FFB motor strength to 100%, the weakest signals from the physics subsystem don't actually get translated into FFB motor torque, which means that you can't feel them (as an aside, this is why some people recommend setting the Overall Effects Strength in Logitech Profiler to above 100% -- this minimizes some issues, but in turn creates other issues).

This was a particularly thorny problem because the weakest forces are sent to the wheel around top dead center, making the wheel have a much larger deadzone than the physics data would suggest. For e.g. CSW v2 wheels, this problem doesn't exist as far as I'm aware because the hardware is simply better.

G27 wheels also do not have a linear response curve when plotting input signal strength on the X-axis and the resulting FFB motor response on the Y-axis (0-16% input = no response, 16-40% input = 0-80 degree response, 40-100% input = 80-150ish degree response) similar to what this modified graph (sourced from an isiforum wheelcheck.exe graph) shows:

wheelcheck_graph_with_linear_response_slope_for_comparison.jpg

(the above image illustrates my understanding of the stated parameters. It might not be fully accurate, but it ought to give a better intuitive understanding of what the parameters do)

And again, other types of wheels are likely to behave differently.

So, in order to encapsulate this natural variance in a single, coherent FFB mixing framework driven purely by the modeled suspension geometry (with a few 'physics-derived' effects optionally mixed in, such as Seat of Pants and Gut which use loads and G-forces measured at different positions in the car and not as part of the steering geometry), AJ came up with the current v3 and v4 topology of the FFB system.

The two topologies are functionally the same, where the v4 topology merely exist to allow us to tell the FFB that it should take its configuration values from XML configuration files and ignore the corresponding values in the UI (v3 = UI, v4 = XML overrides UI).

For the G27 in particular, two functions are important:

The Scoop function compensates for the non-linearity of the wheel, which means it counteracts the fact that on the graph, the slope of the response curve is steeper at first and then at some point changes to a flatter slope for the rest of the output range. The point where it changes is called the scoop knee. So the physics-driven FFB signal is sent through the scoop function with the goal to take the physics-driven steering column torque as input and modifying it so that the end result is that the torque response from the wheel is linear.

Similarly, the TightenCenterRange function (a.k.a. Deadzone Removal Range in the UI) was developed as an alternative to the SoftClip function such that forces below the threshold in G27 wheels can be boosted exactly to the point where you begin to feel the FFB motors working, removing the limpness around TDC. This constitutes a form of signal compression. The exact value needed between wheels typically varies (as does user preference!).

Force Components and Master Scale

But to make matters worse, the cars in the game do not weigh the same, they do not have the same downforce, their tyre grip varies significantly and nor do they have the same suspension geometry. This means that the forces applied to the steering column can vary both between cars, and particularly, the column torque on a high downforce car can vary significantly depending on its speed (hello FA!).

This is why there is both a global Tyre Force scale plus a Master Scale for each car, and why you can tweak Fx, Fy, Fz and Mz independently, as at e.g. high speeds in the FA, Fy (lateral force) translates directly into a powerful centering spring force that is capable of completely drowning out all other signals. So by turning down only Fy on the FA, you create more breathing room for the Fx (longitudinal force -- 'braking feel'), Fz (vertical force -- 'road feel') and Mz (self aligning moment -- initial resistance to turning and very useful for perceiving the amount of countersteer needed) components, while you still retain a sense of increased lateral cornering loads.

The Power Steering problem

So, let's say you manage to configure your FFB to have completely linear torque response and your wheel cannot go beyond 10 Nm of column torque but your car produces up to 40Nm column torque. In that case you have to carefully think about which part of the FFB response is important to you because you will need to 'squeeze' the physics signal into the available FFB motor range somehow -- all without losing the parts of the signal you deem essential (think of Kimi's woes with the 'feel' of his power steering systems for the past few seasons).

The SoftClip functions help you achieve the above, in that the useful signals can be allowed to fill, say, 90% of the range of your wheel, while spikes (high-frequency, high-amplitude) signals can be compressed into the last 10% of your wheel's torque range. That way you can perceive subtle balance and grip changes, but your wheel won't knock and rattle itself off the desk when you hit the kerbs hard or are in a collision.

In some ways, this is the same problem that power steering designers solve, except that with power steering the limiting factor is the torque the human behind the wheel is able to handle, and then you can add on top all the other mechanical engineering design challenges such as the hydraulic power steering pump capacity and how to ensure that the power steering gives sufficient assistance at low crank speeds while not overboosting at high crank speeds, speed sensitive boosting, variable ratio steering rack etc. etc.

Freedom of Expression

And that is why the FFB system seems so complex: It is a conceptually elegant system designed to allow you to engineer exactly the type of FFB feel that you personally find useful, while allowing AJ to dial up the elements that help him develop tyre physics -- without both of you having to compromise because one 'preset' or 'personal preference' was deemed more important than another.

Alas, freedom of (FFB preference) expression comes with its own set of challenges it would seem. :)
 
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My understanding is still that the FFB should be governed by the physics simulation.
It should give me the same feeling i'd get when driving that particular car myself in real life.

Wish it was that simple.. but it is not. If you can afford a 2000$+ direct drive FFB wheel then basically what you say becomes reality.. but even here it's not exactly that simple due to how the actual FFB system was devised/created almost 20 years ago (!!!).

Leo Bodnar had some awesome articles about the problems of FFB and how it is done in games. There were two companies fighting for FFB implementation back in the 90's. Microsoft and Immersion (I think at least that was what they were called). Microsoft lost.. and now we are using a system that was created a long long time ago.

Anybody have those old articles from Leo? I think they were published around 2009 or so.. during the iRacing beta. I know he posted there in the forums but I think they were officially published as well.

So anyways.. this old FFB driver system combined with crappy plastic consumer wheels with weak motors is the main reason we need a lot of adjustability in the games.
 
So anyways.. this old FFB driver system combined with crappy plastic consumer wheels with weak motors is the main reason we need a lot of adjustability in the games.

Except in other sims like GSCE, iRacing, and even AC we don't "need this adjustability". Hell, GSCE has what, one option to adjust your FFB? I've driven that sim on multiple wheels and they all felt great (not exactly the same from one to another, but all felt great). Same with AC, you have just a few settings (that are all self explanatory) and even using the same settings on different wheels it all feels great. They don't need all these options. Do they not use this old FFB driver system?

I really dislike the way R3E and pCARS have introduced all these options. In AC or GSCE I choose a setting, it feels good, and I go race without thinking about it again. In R3E and pCARS I spend hours upon hours tinkering (and very little time driving/racing) and I never feel satisfied with it because I'm always wondering if there's a better combination of settings. And because it's difficult to even know what a lot of the settings do we probably end up with screwy settings that don't produce the best results that the sim can offer.

To me, it's the equivalent of going to a fancy restaurant, ordering a meal, and then the cook just brings you all the ingredients for you to cook and assemble yourself without any guidance about quantity, time, temp, seasonings, etc. You may end up with an edible meal but it won't be nearly as good as if the cook and prepared it himself.

Just my opinion, I'm sure some people love all these options and that's fine. It's just not for me and discourages me from even turning on the game.
 
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To me, it's the equivalent of going to a fancy restaurant, ordering a meal, and then the cook just brings you all the ingredients for you to cook and assemble yourself without any guidance about quantity, time, temp, seasonings, etc. You may end up with an edible meal but it won't be nearly as good as if the cook and prepared it himself.

Excellent analogy Brandon. I think the problem is the fact that GSCE, AC and RF2 don't have all the options available that are available in PCARS but yet still manage to give a fantastic FFB driving experience through a multitude of wheels. If these sims/games were not available then PCARS and R3E would be looked on more favourably but everyone in this community knows it does not have to be this way and this is were the frustration lies. Also with Ermo's elegant piece explaining even the same model of wheel can be different then how on earth is there supposed to be a general consensus for people that have not got the time or the energy to change all the various settings. This is a massive fail and a big oversight.

In my opinion the direction PCARS and R3E have taken is a failure in comparison to the other available driving sims. They have tried to reinvent the 'wheel', when it would have been easier if they had stuck with the round one that we already have.
 
Well I have had enough of tinkering with it. So now I just race it. Had a fantastic Club race tonight in the RWD LMP1 and it felt superb. I have adjusted it to my liking and I ain't messing with it again.

Truly superb race with great immersion.
2015-07-08_00008_zpsv9vsxrdz.jpg
 
Ya, but it should be simple anyways.
Of course, if you know exactly what you want to be different, it's absolutely awesome to have the amount of settings like in pCars, but out of the box there should be default settings that simply feel good without having to touch anything at all.

Just like ultra excessive graphics options menues - 98% of people will never understand what all that means, but they don't have to. They put the settings to "Ultra" or to "Low" and bamm - looks good for the computer they have.
Same needs to apply to FFB.
 
Can you send the link? Didn't find any... under Racing Games?

I guess more is not always better. Wish it were much simpler but as good as rF2 or SCE.

It is called Project CARS Formula A: tame the beast.

It IS in the racing games part, the thumbnail is a close up of the car. I can´t post the link here, mods wouldn´t allow it. If you are having trouble with the light steering around the corners, watch from 2:20 on.
 
It is called Project CARS Formula A: tame the beast.

It IS in the racing games part, the thumbnail is a close up of the car. I can´t post the link here, mods wouldn´t allow it. If you are having trouble with the light steering around the corners, watch from 2:20 on.

I wonder what the policy is behind that -- wasn't the internet invented explicitly to support hyperlinks?!
 
Well I have had enough of tinkering with it. So now I just race it.

That's basically what I've done, I just adjust the master scale and arm angle until it feels ok and then just race. I've used some base global settings found from users here, there could be a better combination out there but these feel pretty good and allow me to just get on with racing.

The biggest issue I have now is that the feeling changes from one race session to another. During practice I'll make some small adjustments to get the wheel weight correct, then when the race starts the wheel will feel much heavier, or sometimes lighter, or sometimes just altogether different. It's quite frustrating.
 
I wonder what the policy is behind that -- wasn't the internet invented explicitly to support hyperlinks?!

It´s OK, I understand it. The web has a place for the videos. Better using that than transforming the places reserved for discussion into a YT whoring festival haha!

About the FFB thing, I´m a bit surprised about the trouble people have here. I´m not exactly a guy that will hold up critizicing what doesn´t work, but I must be very lucky here... because T500 on default settings feels wonderful with pretty much any car on default FFB settings. That is, when the wheel is not too busy spinning out of control between sessions:mad:

I´ve just bumped into a couple of cars that felt like **** (Formula A is the prime example), and it was solved mostly through alignment setup on the car. FFB changes barely helped.
 
Thanks @Dyrgl, I'll recheck the vid links. Have you tried GT cars, like BMW GT2 or Audi? Feels too 'springy' pulling the wheel to the center even at lower speeds. I've been looking for that damping (like in rF2 or SCE) that increases only as you steer. Anyway, I'll check it out.
 
Thanks @Dyrgl, I'll recheck the vid links. Have you tried GT cars, like BMW GT2 or Audi? Feels too 'springy' pulling the wheel to the center even at lower speeds. I've been looking for that damping (like in rF2 or SCE) that increases only as you steer. Anyway, I'll check it out.

I know what you mean mate. No solution for that yet, they have stated in a couple of patches already that the center spring force would be reduced for better feel at low speeds but I haven´t seen any improvements there if I´m honest.

The wheel comes back too strongly on its own to the center when you´re exiting a hairpin or making it back on track after a spin. I don´t think any of the avaliable options in the game can help, it´s up to them to solve it. If you find a solution, tell me because I have the same trouble. Cheers, and I hope the alignment changes I mentioned in the FA help you!
 
I know what you mean mate. No solution for that yet, they have stated in a couple of patches already that the center spring force would be reduced for better feel at low speeds but I haven´t seen any improvements there if I´m honest.

The wheel comes back too strongly on its own to the center when you´re exiting a hairpin or making it back on track after a spin. I don´t think any of the avaliable options in the game can help, it´s up to them to solve it. If you find a solution, tell me because I have the same trouble. Cheers, and I hope the alignment changes I mentioned in the FA help you!

I think I was able to mostly get rid of this by cranking up the deadzone dropoff removal (or whatever the second deadzone option is called). I have it at (or near) max I believe, and I rarely feel that centering effect anymore.
 

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