Ferrari 458

CCX

AC Physics: Mini | Koenigsegg One:1
I don't know why, but I'm struggling to get the 458 sideways and hold it in a stable slide. I've tried different approaches but I always find the car either regains grip too quickly or just wants to spin round. This might partly be due to it being mid-engined, as I can hold the E92 M3 sideways all day long.

I just wondered if anyone can recommend some slight setup tweaks or a change in technique that would make the car more stable when in a slide - I can only hotlap for so long before my curiosity gets the better of me and I want to powerslide. :D

It does seem quite unpredictable at times (all aids off, with the exception of ABS and auto-clutch, as it's a paddle-shift car), which seems at odds with what I've seen and read about how it drives in real life. Is it just me, or does anyone else think the same?

Other than that though, I'm loving AC so far. By far the best sim I've ever tried.
 
Hi Kazumi, I think you miss my point.

I am not saying it is not a real issue or not important, that is for people to decide for themselves, and I totally agree that it can and should be discussed.

What I am saying is that the discussion should one of asking why things are done the way they are, understanding the reasoning behind it, and then making suggestions about other approaches in a sensible and measured way. Not saying that because something hasn't been done the way that I would prefer, that it cannot be valid and that the whole model is therefore worthless.
 
Mr 458 unhappy,
Mr 458 say "Dave, make TC thread"
Mr 458 say "People, stop feeding Dave"

Mr 458 sent photo to get thread back on track.....

sRfwL3L.jpg
 
Yes in real life we can't sense slip ratio, but we roughly calculate equivalents from wheel velocities, yaw sensors etc.

In the end we can't copy exactly, but we can at least use systems that approximate the real behaviour at least a bit.

RFactor 1 simulates huge kinematic complexity for a very old game, so to run the very simplest form of TC for a car like the F458 with a fantastically integrated system is nothing like sim like that Id expect from a premiere sim like AC.


Anyway just went for another drive in AC.

The balance of the car is nice overall but there are some odd things going on.

Ie, rpm needles wobbles like crazy when you shift down while accelerating. Floor it in 7th at 3000rpm then shift down a gear and the revs flare beyond the ideal amount by a fair margin, then drop back down with the needle flicking around for half a second.
A canned effect of some sort?


I wasn't entirely happy with the FF either.

Damping just made it heavy and slow. Filtering maybe helped clear up the clattering FF, but why are clattery forces sent to the wheel to start with? ie coming to a stop with lock on (3 point turn) its shuddering a lot at low speed.

Some canned effects clear on grass and with ABS I think which detracted from a smooth feel to my tastes. Any way to just get pure rack forces from Fy and scrub axis on the rack?


It'd be great if KS can provide us with their perfect settings per controller. I guess they must have in mind the perfect settings for it to feel how they intended?

It'd help in understanding if these are just bad config settings or faults with something.


I'm excited when the modding tools arrive as I guess we'll finally see what we can/can't do and what is simulated etc, as right now we're testing this beta very blind.

Hmmm
 
Sorry to say it mate, but IMHO 458 is so well modeled in Assetto Corsa, that I can't imagine anyone in next few years time make this car even close to level that KS achived with their simulator.

It's just bloody brilliant and the more videos of 458 I watch the more I'm sure about that.
 
Damping just made it heavy and slow. Filtering maybe helped clear up the clattering FF, but why are clattery forces sent to the wheel to start with? ie coming to a stop with lock on (3 point turn) its shuddering a lot at low speed.
I did not check anything else, but I just went out in the F458 and tried this. I did not really notice wheel shuddering at low speed with my Fanatec CSR. Though there was a slight nubbly feeling if the car was just barely rolling(not under it's own power) with the wheel turned. That went away once you touched the pedals. I guess my wheel could be setup better?

I will say this though:
I have never driven a F458 or any other fancy modern sports cars.
However my Firebird, an old barely-sports car most certainly did experience shuddering/scrubbing from the front tires at low speeds at max lock. Even more so with 15x8 or wider rims instead of the 15x7 that these cars were designed for.

This was annoying in parking lots and it certainly tears up gravel/dirt driveways after a bit of time. I am led to believe this is normal for thirdgen Camaros&Firebirds as they have a positive scrub radius.
At it's worst with wide rims and fat tires it can slowly rip the steering box off the frame. :p (or just driving in circles at lock; that is not very nice for any steering components.)

Obviously I have no idea about the front suspension of any modern sports cars and I am probably full of crap. But if the F458 has a positive scrub radius I can see this sort of effect being reflected in the FFB.

It would be nice if the devs weighed in on the issue.
 
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I'm excited when the modding tools arrive as I guess we'll finally see what we can/can't do and what is simulated etc, as right now we're testing this beta very blind.

I'm happy that you're excited but TBH I doubt you can do a better job than Kunos. Especially when it comes to stability control systems, do you think Ferrari will give you the algorithms of their systems if you ask then kindly?
 
To be totally honest I'm not even sure how good the KS simulation is to even approximate what we need to simulate these systems at all to start with.

The feel and sensation is that this is the case in the current beta too.

Until KS actually share some information about the simulation with us then we are all speculating.

So all I can do is make observations based on reality and sim, and the F458 does some very weird things that it doesn't do in real life under the same types of conditions. Ie, high frequency throttle on/off to control traction.

Even having four modes when none of them intermix with the ESP/e-diff makes it kinda pointless to offer four modes when it's clear none are approximate (because they can't be) with the real cars four modes for the Manettino.

Time to start digging in the physics files I guess hehe.

Dave
 
mr whippy said:
the F458 does some very weird things that it doesn't do in real life under the same types of conditions. Ie, high frequency throttle on/off to control traction.

Sorry Sir but could you tell us all on what kind of experience you base on to state such things?
Because i.e. you can find an opinion of guy on virtualR, who drove 458 on and off the track and who stated that it's a big surprise to him how very close to the real thing in terms of driving and car's behaviour AC's 458 is.

So I guess you have a lot of experience with 458 as a driver of this car?
 
I posted a video earlier of a driver who noted the behaviour of the electronic systems on this car and found the way they reacted.

Maybe the 'overall' balance of the car feels ok, I can't dispute that as I've not driven one on the limit before, or over it.

But having a quick nose at the ride frequencies, isn't this car meant to be quite a bit softer than the rates it's currently running? Probably about 0.3hz lower front and rear to what it is now?!

I've driven enough cars in varied conditions to know how their TCS systems work lets put it that way, and none of them sound like machine guns by flapping the throttle on and off at high speed that I've experienced at least :D



I wish KS would just say something. I can argue all day with people who don't know what they are talking about or we could just get a clear answer from the people who made this and why it's the way it is, AND if it's going to be improved.

It's a fairly simple observation and a fair question to be answered in my view.

Many people will buy KS and care about these things. If the premiere PC car sim can't do a half realistic TC system for a car like the F458 then it's not going to be for many enthusiasts that is all.

Dave
 
It's up to KS how much effort they want to put in but to me it just leaves me asking more questions about the apparent accuracy of their sim.

If people here are happy that a car like the mp4 12c or f458 will have their complex integrated stability and control packages replaced with a very simple tc system then that is fine but it doesn't make me wrong to point it out and be unhappy with it.
I certainly know I'm not wrong in the observation itself.

As cars become so complex we have to try harder to simulate the systems at least so we believe they might be acting right, but this is just a slap in the face to me.
 
Sorry but you can't simulate everything and you have to put some priorites.
I guess the stability systems aren't top priority to simulate, especially that they would have to be done specifically for each car.
There is no point spending precious time on developing stability systems when in fact overwhelming majority of simracers won't be using it. And for less hardcore racers TC or helps built in Asseto Corsa will be enough.
Theres is also no point in developing this for a few whingers like you. I bet that if it was implemented you would find something different to cry about, like "wtf is this, 458 has a radio but in AC it doesn't work as it should be" or something like that.
 
I am not sure if I did something substantially wrong, but to me the TC system with its different modes felt very off as well. It hardly controlled the rear tires.
Not too bad though, I prefer them off, anyway.
 
Who the **** cares about assists anyway ? :D

Given older cars where TC is just TC I totally agree :D


But on things like the F458, and even more so the MP4 12C for example, all these systems are fully integrated.
Now I realise that would be a huge task to completely simulate but there is no harm in making the sim 'feel' like they were working as if they did in real life.

In the F458's case simply upping the reaction frequency of the system would make it feel much more seamless in operation. Assuming the TC here is the same as the tech demo then that is just a single value change.

Generally I'm finding the balance nice with the F458 in the end but I'm still a bit unsure that it's not actually too stiff vs real life!?

Dave
 
Which simulator simulates TC good enough in your opinion?
Probbaly none out of the box. AC is the first I'm aware off which recreates the modes it based on the real cars. They get enough positive criticism so I don't see a reason to sugarcoat things.

Also since Aris explained all this things I'm not so sure what Mr Whippy really wants to change / "improve", as far as I can tell the independent slip based TC system is sufficient in most driving situations, even if it's integrated at a deeper level on real cars. As I said if these things wouldn't lead to more complexity in the end we would see them in all sims. Maybe it's simply a bit too quick / abrupt how it is implemented at the moment, so if you stay on full throttle it's as smooth as it could be.

I'm more interested in the diff solutions without any of those aids to be honest as that is one of the major things that can change the handling especially towards more sportyness and feel of power and throttle :)
 
I think if you are offering these kinds of cars then TC is important in a sim like this.

If it was all racing end cars then I'd fully agree.

Just a few more snags on the F458 that are frustrating (seem to be present on all cars), is that when you shift down a gear the throttle isn't cut.
The F458 has no manual clutch or way to not blip/cut throttle, so really they should be defaulted on.


I'm now fairly happy with AC driving. My main frustrations are hopefully things AC can fix. Just finding good settings and setting them mainly. KS should do all this for me, I shouldn't have control of settings that can make the sim feel bad/wrong or incorrect per car.


Dave
 

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