Example of poor simracing equipment

[Niels_at_home]

Hi All,

Each simracing forum has the ''show your cockpit'' type treads. I will start with saying; its a hobby, if you have fun its great! However, many of these setups are poor.

Since this hurts the simulation experience and drivability, I might use this tread to show a few initially impressive cockpits which are in reality quite bad! Yet the community response seems to be 'Wow I want one!' .


Entry 1: "Full Motion Big Screens .. or Micro Motion Full Lag?"
Setup:

l

What is wrong:
Looks very impressive. Must have cost a FORTUNE! However:
- the lag of these expensive televisions is incredible. Its undrivable on the limit in a good simulator
- the 'full motion' must have cost something but it barely moves at all. Waste of money, as are all wobbly seats but I might go into that at a later date!

Hypothetically, the user could have spent the money on a static seat, Leo FFB wheel, much better pedals and three much faster gaming screens. He would have money left over and an infinitely better simulation experience!

 

[ReDi]

Since nothing can be seen on the screens except the wheel moving, all we can really say is that the animation lag is noticeable. If the car itself reacts promptly to input, however, it can still be driveable.

Indeed the movement of the seat isn't very big. It may give some extra immersion, but g-forces it can hardly simulate. Therefore probably too little for too much money.
Motion seats or only so-so anyway, because usually you can see your surroundings which means that you're not fooled into thinking that you are experiencing real g-forces, you still know you're tilting forward and backward.

 

[Jim Cole]

...Motion seats or only so-so anyway, because usually you can see your surroundings which means that you're not fooled into thinking that you are experiencing real g-forces, you still know you're tilting forward and backward.

Which is why the high end simulators used by government agencies and such are completely enclosed units Wish I could afford one of those heheh.

 

[Henry Muller]

I really dislike having a virtual wheel, driving with 2 wheels in front of me doesn't seem natural it's distracting, also with this lag it's even worse, am I the only one who positions my wheel as close to the "virtual wheel" position as possible and always disable the virtual when possible!?

anyway, input delay is a huge problem with many screens,

 

[Tim Ling]

Surely any lag in the movement of the wheel on the screen will be down to the pc/console used to run the sim. Most large tv screens now have response times similar to dedicated monitors.

E.g. http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/toshiba-32bv801b-32-full-hd-lcd-tv-11358335-pdt.html with a response time of 8ms...not perfect, but playable. TBH, any tv with a low response time will have problems while playing dvd/bluray too.

I agree about the "full motion chair" though...not exactly "full motion"...

 

[Niels_at_home]

Tim, that's a catch, I've measured lots of televisions and most of them have intolerable lag. It has nothing to do with response time, it is time 'wasted' processing the incoming image before it starts drawing it.

With games like F1 2010 the graphics steering wheel might not be directly linked to the G25 or whatever you use, but in iRacing and rFactor (iRacing was used in the vid) they are directly linked, so no 'view animation' stuff runs on top of it.

Lag in the system is as good as the weakest link. Your steering inputs may arrive via USB into the sim physics engine very fast, but you react to a very large degree on what you *SEE* so lag in the monitors means you get 'old' information fed to the eyes.

 

[Henry Muller]

Surely any lag in the movement of the wheel on the screen will be down to the pc/console used to run the sim. Most large tv screens now have response times similar to dedicated monitors.

E.g. http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/toshiba-32bv801b-32-full-hd-lcd-tv-11358335-pdt.html with a response time of 8ms...not perfect, but playable. TBH, any tv with a low response time will have problems while playing dvd/bluray too.

I agree about the "full motion chair" though...not exactly "full motion"...

response time and input lag/delay are not the same thing, a TV with a low response time can still have a high input delay (it's not rare to see cases when you have a slow screen and a console over 100ms), the fastest screens are probably those PC monitors with TN panels, but normally they have low image quality in general... in TVs is much worse,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_lag

I own a 2005 16ms PC monitor which is clearly faster (less input lag) than a new 2011 LCD TV (2 or 5ms), it's very easy to notice in things like the mouse movement on the screen

 

[Pax7]

Indeed Niels, not bad to point this out again, since the awareness of all this sometimes seems quite low. My system is setup with the best possible equipment wrt low lag -> 120 Hz screens with "through mode" for low input lag due to image processing, no motion cockpit due to the slow response. I used the old FREX wheel up until it broke a week ago, that was 60 Hz update frequency unfortunately. If it was mainly due to that I am not sure, but there was a clear lag in the FFB effects of the FREX wheel.

Hypothetically, the user could have spent the money on ... Leo FFB wheel

Yep, hypothetically... Can you kindly ask Leo to put it out on the market now? With some three years of development and multiple deployments, I am sure it is just fine and that we can handle it

 

[Hubba]

Interesting write up.

 

[Niels_at_home]

Any money spent on wobbly seats is money wasted from a *sim* point of view. Perhaps it can immerse, but it really is no more than a wobbly seat that, as it leans to the left, as they do in a right hand turn, throw your body to the right of the seat, giving you an inverted G force clue, but ''G'' is not present in these seats. Sustained 0.1G and it just 'nudges' you, often in the wrong way as I just said.

Leaning left, once you're there might give you the 0.1 or 0.2G 'right hand corner G' but when the seat goes from 'straight up' to this left lean, you're pushed to the right of the seat, as if its entering a left hand turn. This 'nudge' is likely to be of greater short G burst than the sustained G

ALso, moving in relation to your pedals and wheel is just odd, either you limit motion of the seat to perhaps 2cm each way, so you don't have any motion, or you don't but then you move around your pedals and wheel which is just wrong on so many levels..

Get a nice PC and three 27" low lag monitors, thats 2000 euro WELL spent.


For some reason the 'returns' in my post don't register and it is just a bunch of text :S

 

[M3GTR]

what is your point

Any money spent on wobbly seats is money wasted from a *sim* point of view. Perhaps it can immerse, but it really is no more than a wobbly seat that, as it leans to the left, as they do in a right hand turn, throw your body to the right of the seat, giving you an inverted G force clue, but ''G'' is not present in these seats. Sustained 0.1G and it just 'nudges' you, often in the wrong way as I just said.

Leaning left, once you're there might give you the 0.1 or 0.2G 'right hand corner G' but when the seat goes from 'straight up' to this left lean, you're pushed to the right of the seat, as if its entering a left hand turn. This 'nudge' is likely to be of greater short G burst than the sustained G

ALso, moving in relation to your pedals and wheel is just odd, either you limit motion of the seat to perhaps 2cm each way, so you don't have any motion, or you don't but then you move around your pedals and wheel which is just wrong on so many levels..

Get a nice PC and three 27" low lag monitors, thats 2000 euro WELL spent.


For some reason the 'returns' in my post don't register and it is just a bunch of text :S

you attacked for what reason? the motion is from D-box and I see one that moves a lot more than this one maybe this guy doesn't like it to move much, so personal taste I think . The blokes got money nothing is wrong with that and this link is from the same place i believe. . you are ill dude!

 

[M3GTR]

Hi All,

Each simracing forum has the ''show your cockpit'' type treads. I will start with saying; its a hobby, if you have fun its great! However, many of these setups are poor.

Since this hurts the simulation experience and drivability, I might use this tread to show a few initially impressive cockpits which are in reality quite bad! Yet the community response seems to be 'Wow I want one!' .


Entry 1: "Full Motion Big Screens .. or Micro Motion Full Lag?"
Setup:

l

What is wrong:
Looks very impressive. Must have cost a FORTUNE! However:
- the lag of these expensive televisions is incredible. Its undrivable on the limit in a good simulator
- the 'full motion' must have cost something but it barely moves at all. Waste of money, as are all wobbly seats but I might go into that at a later date!

Hypothetically, the user could have spent the money on a static seat, Leo FFB wheel, much better pedals and three much faster gaming screens. He would have money left over and an infinitely better simulation experience!

wobbly seat:eek: according to the info its recaro seat. what is it that you use dude , Love to see your set up , come on show us yours

 

[Niels_at_home]

Hey chill! I start the post saying to each his/her hobby. I feel however too many people see 'expensive sim rigs' and go green with envy. Sometimes however these setups are a great example of some common errors made. There are dozens of videos on youtube where you see the problem, this one was high on the list of 'great on first sight'.

Yes, I feel anyone buying a Frex or similar moving seat is wasting their money. I've explained why these moving seat things don't work in this tread, yet they cost the same as a fast pc + 3 good fast screens. Why buy something that doesn't give you correct feedback yet often these users use an ancient Logitech MOMO and a single 20'' TFT? Those decisions I can't understand.

The same user has another video where he runs iRacing with 180degs lock on his wheel, resulting in incredibly non linear steering response. That is another prime example of how to make your sim experience worse. Sorry!

Yes yes, he probably has a great time playing sims / games on that setup, and I feel nothing against that. But for simracers who are about to spend money on expensive hardware, perhaps it helps them reading some 'different' opinions about some of these things.

 

[Will Currington]

Hey chill! I start the post saying to each his/her hobby. I feel however too many people see 'expensive sim rigs' and go green with envy. Sometimes however these setups are a great example of some common errors made. There are dozens of videos on youtube where you see the problem, this one was high on the list of 'great on first sight'.

Yes, I feel anyone buying a Frex or similar moving seat is wasting their money. I've explained why these moving seat things don't work in this tread, yet they cost the same as a fast pc + 3 good fast screens. Why buy something that doesn't give you correct feedback yet often these users use an ancient Logitech MOMO and a single 20'' TFT? Those decisions I can't understand.

The same user has another video where he runs iRacing with 180degs lock on his wheel, resulting in incredibly non linear steering response. That is another prime example of how to make your sim experience worse. Sorry!

Yes yes, he probably has a great time playing sims / games on that setup, and I feel nothing against that. But for simracers who are about to spend money on expensive hardware, perhaps it helps them reading some 'different' opinions about some of these things.

I'm with you on this as well, I trawl YouTube and other sites and have a wee chuckle at some of the rigs you see, as you say they have a wow factor but...... Then you see things that make you think why? Bad FOV is my biggest gripe, especially if it's a vid of iracing which has a FOV calculator and people still get it wrong. Also why spend $3000 on three screens and a motion rig and use an outdated wheel and crap pedals when you could spend the money on much much better equipment which in turn makes the sim more enjoyable. Then get the motion rig, not the D Box tho as for what you get for the money it's a waste. I can say that my day spent with the simxperience rig was very enjoyable. Would never make me quicker but it did add an immersion element that you can't put your finger on. The fact that George had a decent wheel (ARC G25), & 3 decent screens helped immensely and now he's got the CST's I recommended I'm sure it's got to be pretty special. Oh and M3Gtr, I'm sure Niels set up is pretty special and mine before you have a pop is CST pedals, 3 dell screens, custom built rig which I'm redoing in 80/20 profile and a very very nice wheel.

 

[thanavud]

I am interested in getting a sim , and it would be very helpful if you can suggest on what to buy including the triple screens and I have a budget of $6,000

 

[Niels_at_home]

It was fair that pics of my rig where requested so here are two shots:

www.h-engineering.nl/pics/rigside.jpg

www.h-engineering.nl/pics/rigbehind.jpg

- My pc: Core 2 duo 3.8ghz, ATI 5870 eyefinity, small SSD drive and 2gb ram, about $1000
- My sim screens are 3x iiyama e2710 hds 27", outer plastic removed, all three about $1000
- Still using G25 shifter (not great but it functions) so that was $250
- DIY pedals with true 50kg brake pedal force (no leverage as in some other pedals where only a few kg remain!) $400
- Cobra Clubman Seat, the really cheap stuff isn't comfy, this is acceptable ish $250
- Wooden Rig and monitor stands, 1 weekend DIY, $100 materials
- Leo Bodnar wheel, not really commercially available sorry! Using the G25 wheel, its quite acceptable..

I get to about $3000, the wheel more than doubles this but thats not really a normal piece of hardware!

It doesn't look 20% as impressive as the rig in the video I posted, yet the lack of lag, proper 50kg brake pedal, and somewhat unfairly that wheel make it work very well. Of course it wasn't all cheap, but price/performance wise its not bad.

I run only rFactor as that is what I use to make physics and we at Reiza of course used its base for Game StockCar. At bezel compensated ~5900x1080 resolution I get 120fps on my own, locked to -120fps in the PLR file for more consistent less teary framerate and minimal input lag. The 'real to virtual' wheel lag is about 0.017 seconds, 1/60th. I sometimes have to turn shadows to medium to achieve 120fps but it still looks fine to me, I'm not a graphics guy.. For sound I use a decent pair of headphones which is neighbour friendly and immerses me more in the drive.

In summer I have a big yellow towel in the seat as the strong FFB and 50kg brake make me sweat and everytime I hit the brakes I pant like a woman in labour. I never said it was a pretty sight (or thought!)

 

[thanavud]

Thanks, I get the Pc and will try it and probably going to need more advise from you and the motions is not important but it distract you on the other hand

 

[Niels_at_home]

My PC was bought in 2008, these days you better get a i5 2500K processor on a P67 mainboard. RFactor doesn't really need SLI or Crossfire (2 graphics cards) but perhaps some games you play work well with them. RFactor by default gains some 60% framerate with a second card, which sounds great. But there is a framerate 'fix' (d3d9.dll) that makes a single card about 40% faster at the 6000x1080 type resolutions. With Crossfire or SLI, this d3d9.dll fix destroys framerate. So with rFactor SLI is only a little bit faster than one card + d3d9 fix.

Also the ati 6970 2gb is a little cheaper and a little faster than the 5870 eyefinity edition, and it supports 4 monitors..

 

[Tim Ling]

Tim, that's a catch, I've measured lots of televisions and most of them have intolerable lag. It has nothing to do with response time, it is time 'wasted' processing the incoming image before it starts drawing it.

With games like F1 2010 the graphics steering wheel might not be directly linked to the G25 or whatever you use, but in iRacing and rFactor (iRacing was used in the vid) they are directly linked, so no 'view animation' stuff runs on top of it.

Lag in the system is as good as the weakest link. Your steering inputs may arrive via USB into the sim physics engine very fast, but you react to a very large degree on what you *SEE* so lag in the monitors means you get 'old' information fed to the eyes.

Thanks for the info Niels. I was thinking of buying a large screen TV (32") to use as a monitor, but I think I'll stick with a monitor. I dont have room for a 3 screen setup. CSR pedals are also on my list.

 

[George Pilkington]

My SimXperience rig deffinately adds to the immersion rather than taking it away.
Many people have now driven it and all, to a man or woman, have enjoyed it immensly.
My 10 p worth.
George