DSP iNuke Behringer Amp & Sim Commander

DesKane · Jul 7, 2017

Hey folks just wanted share some findings from a major test day that myself and Mr Latte carried out recently on my Race Rig.

WHY - I am a bit of a noob and needed help with refining this type of setup, as researching DSP amps, I have read on various forums that you can refine the Hz frequency and their surrounding frequencies, by producing a cleaner and all round better Transducer result for you on your Rig, while not overloading your AMP and Transducers units. And cause I have spent a lot of money on this DSP functionality. So does it work ? or give you any benefit ?

MY setup is as follows :-
Rig is an Rseat RS1, big lump of a thing, heavy metal, but a great GT setup.
I am running x6 Transducers in total, all running through Simxperience Commander, which are setup as follows:-

x4 Buttkicker Advance setup in Chassis Mode (CM) - so x2 BKs at the front of the rig and x2 at the back of the rig.
x1 BK Advance Behind the seat ..... Yes I drilled through the seat, DO IT !!! - Extensions Mode (EM)
x1 BK Clarks Synthesis TST 239 Silver underneath the seat, compliments of Mr Latte, and yes brilliant for engine detailing, seat of the pants type stuff (SOP) - Extensions Mode (EM)

With all BKs creating tactile feedback via my X3 iNuke Behringer DSP 3000 Amps.

Placement is key and trust me these lumps have been everywhere, but all rigs are different, such as weight, flex and absorb the resonance of your transducers, and even how you attach these lumps to your rig needs to be considered, but that is another thread in itself, or at least try and test this for yourself, it does make a difference though, trust me.

So as I mentioned my limited knowledge, I searched a few websites and managed to setup a few things via the iNUKE Remote Connect software, such as configuring my BKs not to overload while set to 4ohms, you can play with the 'Peak Limiter' to limit maximum watts output, or whatever your maximum wattage for your transducer is, at least this way if I wanted to turn the AMP up to 11, I would not overload the BK into thermal cut off, which I have managed a lot using my Previous mini LFEs.

I would usually set within 'Filter/Crossover' the 'Gain' for both channels to be very high at 8db, while cranking up the volume on the AMP, feedback I thought was good, very tactile, with not much settings applied within 'Parametric EQ' nor 'Dynamic EQ' but even I knew that my AMPS were turned right up with an additional 8db applied to the 'GAIN' that this cannot be good, and stressing out the BKs, sometimes they got warm while in a long race, but also the stress on the AMPs, I have replaced the stock fans with Noctuas, much better and quiter.

So with a little advice and direction my Mr Latte, I have effectively rolled back my AMPs volume 25% so this is far from peaking now, and rolled back the 'db Gain' within 'Filter/Crossover' from 8db to 6db to 5db and with setting up the frequency hz range of what specific hz I want to control, and its 'Surrounding Frequencies' within the 'Parametric EQ' I am probably getting now within some Sim Racing Games maybe too much Tactile feedback, so maybe a little more fine tuning to be done, but we are almost there to find that sweet spot.

BUT, for me this has been a revelation, as I have rolled back my volume setting on my Amps using EM & CM, rolled back the db Gain within each Amp DSP software, probably giving my Amps a few more years life in them

so basically the AMP is under less while still achieving what feels like maybe 30% more tactile feedback from my Buttkickers ? ............ Voodoo Magic Man !!

DSP has definitely given me more control across the range of my BK advances, now having that bit more understanding, just a bit more !!!

For instance if you wanted to Boost 45hz with your DSP remember within SimCommander also every effect that uses that 45hz frequency will also be boosted, bare that in mind.

I have now though with Rodders specifically pin pointed certain areas of boost that I would like to emphasise to my transducers hz range, that I setup within SimCommander, such as say gear change, I may add x2 gearchange effects, have one set at 20hz and another Gear effect added at 45hz you can simply add these filters within your DSP curve 20hz & 45hz, all within 'ParaEQ' while also applying a 'Quality' setting to these gearchanges 20hz & 45hz, range the quality setting from 1 to 10 depending on how much surrounding frequency you want to encroach on other frequencies, such as 45hz can spill +20hz either side of this surrounding frequency of your gear change, flooding it within your transducer, but you can control this by setting the 'quality slider to '10' you can really dial the hz into your 45hz gear change and reduce the surrounding frequency, this way you can just boost your gearchange around this setting getting all the punch and emphasise you want while not flooding your transducers with loads of effects that just flood your units, thus not getting the detailing you think you should be getting. Do make sure that you have 'Type' within ParaEQ set to 'PEQ' this just keeps your HZ range calm and dialed in.

Not easy to explain when I am no expert at this but, help is always at hand for those out there using DSP and want to dial in their Transducers, while not killing their AMPs as I was

For me the results have been awesome, but as I pointed out at the start I am using a Rig that is very heavy on the back end so I needed to differentiate my BKAs to give a stronger return on the back and lighter on the front as the front is a little springy, so tactile travels well in this area. I can now say that this has been achieved, with a bit of savvy science from Mr Latte.

I have added my profile picture below from iNuke DSP Software, this is what works well for me on my rig, for x2 Buttkicker Advances in Chassis Mode on the rear of an RseatRS1, this may not work for everyone, as it may be far too strong, as all setups differ, but you should hopefully get the idea, and give it a try for yourselves and have a play with these settings to see what works for you and your Rig setup. And if you do give it a try obviously input this this across both channels A & B

Thanks for reading this far, and cheers Mr Latte for your time with me on this.

Mr Latte · Jul 8, 2017

Thanks for posting and sharing, I encourage you to continue in this as we just touched lightly on how it's possible to alter the "character" a tactile unit may have. To be able to basically modify the "feel" that it generates to be more in how the user wants it to "feel" or control it to better suit their rig materials and installation.

Different Materials / Installations
I believe from some quick searching around that "aluminum" has a dampening factor of ~.004, and "steel" ~.008. Steel will resonate less than aluminum. Different materials based on their construction also resonate via different frequencies as they have different dampening factors.
So it is possible for specific frequency ranges to perhaps cause pinging or bad reverb if these frequencies energy is too high. One of the beauties is the user can reduce easily a "frequency range" their tactile will output to avoid or reduce such issues perhaps on their own builds materials or construction.

Looks Crazy
I can remember when I first seen the screens above a few years back when these amps came out and that it looked rather daunting with all the knobs. The grid with numbers and lots of buttons/dials is a bit overwhelming to try and take in.

I am particularly interested in what can be done when applying settings in iNuke DSP to improve specific frequencies for effects we may want to boost for more felt definition. This can be to bring more impact/punch in the "slam" or more "body" to the detailing over what the unit used generally offers with standard amplification for these frequencies.

So it certainly possible in bringing more life or improved sensation using this working in tandem with the output level and frequencies used in actual Simvibe effects layers and their output settings.

Simvibe & iNuke Together
Basically, we can boost/cut in iNuke DSP using the EQ features specific frequencies and then determine how wide also the "surrounding frequencies" either side of the "center value" are also effected with the boost or indeed cut. In doing this we are altering the character output of the tactile unit. Simvibe itself does not offer this level of control to individual frequencies.

As you pointed out this boosts those frequencies chosen for "all effects" in Simvibe. We have to keep in mind Simvibe is "Control Of Effects" and iNUKE DSP is control of the "Tactile Units Operation".

So a user can use settings in the individual Simvibe effects layers to simply reduce the output level for any effect. This could, for instance, help prevent "boosted frequencies" from the iNuke being over aggressive if they feel they do not want "that individual effect" to be boosted as much.

As an example: A user wanting to boost "engine revs" and "gear changes" using iNUKE to boost specific frequencies they are using but then NOT wanting to boost "Road Bumps". So it's possible with some effort and playing around to get a good balance. By achieving not just a boost in where we want it but to avoid making something else in different other/effects become overbearing or worse.

Gain Control Vs PEQ
What we discovered was that much better results came from only a 3dB boost using PEQ (Parametric EQ) for "specific frequencies" control. This compared to a standard Gain control of increasing to almost 3 times that amount, using 8dB in gain. As this works across "all frequencies" being used (the dynamic range).

Once someone starts using this to become more familiar with what it does as you feel the changes it is making. The visual tool (using the grid) becomes really useful.Here you see the PEAK and the CURVE of the output with the ability to have a gentle or steep SLOPE in how frequencies are used.

I think your right to experiment around with it. It's easy to undo or indeed save settings to a memory profile for specific settings or purpose. Different people will have different preferences and are using various tactile units and installs may have settings that work for them.

*Tip: I think you can change the from "Dual Mono" to "Stereo" in your "Configuration Menu" and save as a new profile. This will mean you do not have to make changes to channel A & B but only just once. "Dual Mono" lets a user have different settings if needed for the L/R channels.

Possibilities Beyond Tactile Rig Tuning?
What I have experimented with to a small degree but do believe can bring a major benefit. In how the combination of having both iNUKE and Simvibe profiles could even be applied for different cars. Here I think more can be done to help make one car's engine feel much different to another. Be it smoother, or more aggressive but important to try and bring more of a sensation truer to the car being driven. I do know it's certainly possible to go beyond what Simvibe alone can offer on its own.

The question is if people in the community are bothered or care to push past the normal boundaries.
Do look forward to maybe more ongoing tests findings you or others may have to share in starting to have a bit of trial and error with iNuke DSP and the EQ features. I have more info to release myself and will work on a quick guide to better understanding frequencies, terms used, the grid display and controls often used that may help towards people actually using these amps to their full potential.

DesKane · Jul 9, 2017

Cheers Mr Latte, will get back into this as I still a bit more fine tuning to do on DSP profiles for CM & EM, as BKs on the back end need a bit more oompfh than the front, want to get that balance right and fit the EM transducers in and around this. But something to throw into the mix ........ Already I can see that even with my profiles and setup all good and happy say for RF2 being my test platform - jump into another sim, iRacing, R3E, AMS, AC everything can be more accentuated or go the other way, softer tactile, so from Sim to Sim results also need to be considered, as all the sims create their FFB levels slightly differently, which is not a problem.

So I will refine profiles within DSP for CC&EM, as I would like to standardise my DSP Profile for my RIG, and also iNuke Volumes to be more or less a constant and as you have suggested I will look at the the specific db setting within SimCommander for each of my Sim Profiles to regulate less or more db control from this point to raise or lower the tactile, all very straight forward I think, at least this way I can find the sweet spot for each racing sim I jump in and out of, love that fact that this was you can simply optimise the best feedback for each Sim, even at this point with a bit more refining to do - my RIG is Singing,

A triumvirate of goodness

Inuke DSP Profile
Amp Volume Control
SimCommander Profile db level per Sim Profile.

signman · Jul 9, 2017

Exciting time's indeed

Looking forward to start testing very soon I hope.
Imagine we will end up with various file's in each sim game for each particular type of car.

Finding this forum and you guy's is a gift quite honestly !

Mr Latte · Jul 9, 2017

Yes if any iNuke owner with tactile wants to look more into different Sim titles having say stronger/weaker output (even with the same profile). Much of this may just be related to different cars and how the telemetry output is managed. I do have notes from past testing in AC looking directly at different cars in how it altered the tactile output. Needs more monitoring to perhaps better understand but yes it certainly is a factor.

Other easy ways to balance this may be.

A) Altering the Output Mixer level in Simvibe
B) Altering the GAIN control in iNuke Crossover

In both cases, the user can adjust on the fly or save a preset and name it for that particular title with the applied boost/cut to help balance any difference in specific titles.

Another option is to use a 4 way mixer and have this in reach of the cockpit and just adjust it on the fly. The below uses rotary pots a bit like a set of Logitech pedals by increasing/lowering the gain.

This could allow easy adjustment of all 4 CM or individually for front/rear with changing cars or different titles and you just want a bit more or less intensity. Much easier to do this here than have to control individual volume knobs on the amps themselves.

Mr Latte · Jul 9, 2017

signman said:
Exciting time's indeed

Looking forward to start testing very soon I hope.
Imagine we will end up with various file's in each sim game for each particular type of car.

Finding this forum and you guy's is a gift quite honestly !

You mentioned to me concern about late night racing and neighbors. While this may be more sound related with speakers.

If the tactile vibrations and the noise of the Buttkickers working when being driven hard one thing we can also do is use the DSP for what I refer to as (Midnight Mode). This lets you load a profile that may only have nice but mild tactile sensations and produce much less noise or vibration and no need to keep altering volumes.

It's also much less hassle doing this than altering multiple layers in Simvibe and again gives more control over what the tactile are outputting. The DSP features really are downplayed by some or just not used by most iNuke DSP owners.

DesKane · Jul 10, 2017

Like the ease of use with that Rodders (Split Mix 4).
When back on line will look at this and maybe IF profiles and other factors need additional refining ... this could be the add on device that refines on the fly... per Sim, per car ......... like it.

found it here from BAX was even cheaper than Amazon

https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/signal-splitter/art-splitmix4-4-channel-splitter-mixer

Mr Latte · Jul 10, 2017

Have a look, the only issue with this and what you currently have means you would need 3.5mm Jack from PC - Twin 1/4" going into SM4 and then going out 1/4" to Balanced XLR into iNuke. So the cost starts rising to make such changes.

Youd be doing away with your current 3.5mm - XLR to replace it with those two types of cables but then you need this 2x for CM so is 4 new cables also.

Mr Latte · Jul 11, 2017

Guys.....

Help is here for anyone that is not sure how to go about using this, I will offer a GUIDE on this in near future and frequencies in general for tactile. Feel free to post or PM.

FrostByghte · Jul 29, 2017

Mr Latte said:
Guys.....

Help is here for anyone that is not sure how to go about using this, I will offer a GUIDE on this in near future and frequencies in general for tactile. Feel free to post or PM.

Mr Latte,

Thanks for the heads up as to the discussion here. Looking at this information for improvements in my own setup as well as looking forward to your guide. I have to say, hats off for your dedication on this subject. Much appreciated.

Mr Latte · Jul 29, 2017

@FrostByghte

Thanks for the comment, feel free to get more involved and discuss or share. I try to encourage chit chat on this topic and enjoy such with others. I created a recent "general discussion tactile" thread, so, by all means, see it as somewhere to share or ask about things if you want.

Heretik · Feb 2, 2019

Hi there,

I've been an avid follower of these forums for a while now and have also got the tactile transducer bug, so great to read about what everyone has accomplished!

I've actually got a similar set up to DesKane in terms of using 4x Buttkickers in Chasis mode with Simvibe, though where it differs is I have and ADX Maximus under the seat and a reckhorn puck under the pedals and another attached to my fanatec shifter and handbrake - all set around a modified GT Omega Art rig which I have had a purpose/custom mounting plate (for under the seat), and mounting arms made to offer some adjustability in placement for the buttkickers. Transducers are all powered by a Cloud CXA6 amp (6 channels 120w @4 ohm), apart from the shifter puck, which being the 7th transducer is currently being powered one of my spare buttkicker amps, (ideally I want everything powered by one amp, but it works ok for now!).I

Also similar to DesKane I have a Clark Synthesis (a 209) which I did have mounted under the seat at one point (I also noted it being very good for engine detail), and was planning on mounting it (somehow!) close to the wheel, or retry under the seat now I have a decent plate under there, so still very much experimenting! I have also experimented a bit with some of the available transducer softwares, (would be interested to know of others opinions on these); whereas I am predominantly using Simvibe, I have used (and very much liked) both Simhub and SRS shaker software.

Having studied as a sound engineer back in the day, I've always had some ideas about how to develop my trandsucer set up - so is really great to read and hear about everyones experiences - I certainly appreciate the expertise here - especially Mr Latte who has been a source of my own inspiration

And on that note - I have been contemplating better ways to increase separation amongst transducers (Mr Latte I liked the idea of focusing more on stereo separation as you mentioned in one of your posts), so I have been designing custom adjustable mounts as a result for my rear Buttkickers - they are basic but have made a world of difference. Equally though, I now want to have more control over the sounds in terms of EQ and dynamics, as discussed above, so I have been considering either using a mixing desk (haven't found the perfect candidate yet) or purchasing a quality audio interface with dsp (this is my preferred option right now, though I do love using a 'proper desk', it would take up unnecessary room too!). In an ideal world I would get 4x Behringer amps, though cost being a factor for me, I can see a decent interface would provide everything I need within budget. So that's where I am at right now!

In terms of immersion and effect I find it very odd now to drive without it! It's like pictures without sound. Running the transducers with ACC, iracing, rFactor2, F1 2019, Dirt Rally/4 is simply fantastic, and though I do find myself spending much time tuning each cars tactile effects, when tuned well with the wheel itself, things like rumble strips start to feel just right and so much more imersive and that allows me to concertrate and enjoy the driving!

Anyways thought I'd say hello and thank you - hopefully I can share some findings and experience with you all at some point

Cheers!

Mr Latte · Feb 2, 2019

@Heretik

Thanks for your post, great to read of your own interests and future plans.
In the past year I looked at different hardware that could bring more control and mixing options and tried a few ideas. My own build has just grew to being far more excessive with what it incorporates than ever intended but this came about by just testing and seeking to push the norm.

Spinelli · Feb 4, 2019

I set a low-pass filter at 200 Hz for both my Buttkicker Concert and Advance. I used the Butterworth type and slope 48 dB. Is this OK? For now, I don't want anything above 200-ish Hz to come out of the Buttkicker just in case (although Simvibe should handle this but I want to be safe).

Mr Latte · Feb 4, 2019

You can determine what this brings you easily for specific effects trying them individually.
Set a filter to start to operate from 100Hz to the 200Hz. Meaning that the tactile do nothing be!low 100Hz

What you can discover with the units your using is how beneficial that extra work you are giving them feels.
I recommend also testing in 25Hz steps.
100Hz - 125Hz
125Hz - 150Hz

Let me know how you get on, see also posts in a recent thread covering the DSP for the new NX D amps

Dan.E.B · Feb 28, 2019

DesKane said:
Hey folks just wanted share some findings from a major test day that myself and Mr Latte carried out recently on my Race Rig.

WHY - I am a bit of a noob and needed help with refining this type of setup, as researching DSP amps, I have read on various forums that you can refine the Hz frequency and their surrounding frequencies, by producing a cleaner and all round better Transducer result for you on your Rig, while not overloading your AMP and Transducers units. And cause I have spent a lot of money on this DSP functionality. So does it work ? or give you any benefit ?

MY setup is as follows :-
Rig is an Rseat RS1, big lump of a thing, heavy metal, but a great GT setup.
I am running x6 Transducers in total, all running through Simxperience Commander, which are setup as follows:-

x4 Buttkicker Advance setup in Chassis Mode (CM) - so x2 BKs at the front of the rig and x2 at the back of the rig.
x1 BK Advance Behind the seat ..... Yes I drilled through the seat, DO IT !!! - Extensions Mode (EM)
x1 BK Clarks Synthesis TST 239 Silver underneath the seat, compliments of Mr Latte, and yes brilliant for engine detailing, seat of the pants type stuff (SOP) - Extensions Mode (EM)

With all BKs creating tactile feedback via my X3 iNuke Behringer DSP 3000 Amps.

Placement is key and trust me these lumps have been everywhere, but all rigs are different, such as weight, flex and absorb the resonance of your transducers, and even how you attach these lumps to your rig needs to be considered, but that is another thread in itself, or at least try and test this for yourself, it does make a difference though, trust me.

So as I mentioned my limited knowledge, I searched a few websites and managed to setup a few things via the iNUKE Remote Connect software, such as configuring my BKs not to overload while set to 4ohms, you can play with the 'Peak Limiter' to limit maximum watts output, or whatever your maximum wattage for your transducer is, at least this way if I wanted to turn the AMP up to 11, I would not overload the BK into thermal cut off, which I have managed a lot using my Previous mini LFEs.

View attachment 200479

I would usually set within 'Filter/Crossover' the 'Gain' for both channels to be very high at 8db, while cranking up the volume on the AMP, feedback I thought was good, very tactile, with not much settings applied within 'Parametric EQ' nor 'Dynamic EQ' but even I knew that my AMPS were turned right up with an additional 8db applied to the 'GAIN' that this cannot be good, and stressing out the BKs, sometimes they got warm while in a long race, but also the stress on the AMPs, I have replaced the stock fans with Noctuas, much better and quiter.

So with a little advice and direction my Mr Latte, I have effectively rolled back my AMPs volume 25% so this is far from peaking now, and rolled back the 'db Gain' within 'Filter/Crossover' from 8db to 6db to 5db and with setting up the frequency hz range of what specific hz I want to control, and its 'Surrounding Frequencies' within the 'Parametric EQ' I am probably getting now within some Sim Racing Games maybe too much Tactile feedback, so maybe a little more fine tuning to be done, but we are almost there to find that sweet spot.

BUT, for me this has been a revelation, as I have rolled back my volume setting on my Amps using EM & CM, rolled back the db Gain within each Amp DSP software, probably giving my Amps a few more years life in them so basically the AMP is under less while still achieving what feels like maybe 30% more tactile feedback from my Buttkickers ? ............ Voodoo Magic Man !!

DSP has definitely given me more control across the range of my BK advances, now having that bit more understanding, just a bit more !!!

For instance if you wanted to Boost 45hz with your DSP remember within SimCommander also every effect that uses that 45hz frequency will also be boosted, bare that in mind.

I have now though with Rodders specifically pin pointed certain areas of boost that I would like to emphasise to my transducers hz range, that I setup within SimCommander, such as say gear change, I may add x2 gearchange effects, have one set at 20hz and another Gear effect added at 45hz you can simply add these filters within your DSP curve 20hz & 45hz, all within 'ParaEQ' while also applying a 'Quality' setting to these gearchanges 20hz & 45hz, range the quality setting from 1 to 10 depending on how much surrounding frequency you want to encroach on other frequencies, such as 45hz can spill +20hz either side of this surrounding frequency of your gear change, flooding it within your transducer, but you can control this by setting the 'quality slider to '10' you can really dial the hz into your 45hz gear change and reduce the surrounding frequency, this way you can just boost your gearchange around this setting getting all the punch and emphasise you want while not flooding your transducers with loads of effects that just flood your units, thus not getting the detailing you think you should be getting. Do make sure that you have 'Type' within ParaEQ set to 'PEQ' this just keeps your HZ range calm and dialed in.

Not easy to explain when I am no expert at this but, help is always at hand for those out there using DSP and want to dial in their Transducers, while not killing their AMPs as I was

For me the results have been awesome, but as I pointed out at the start I am using a Rig that is very heavy on the back end so I needed to differentiate my BKAs to give a stronger return on the back and lighter on the front as the front is a little springy, so tactile travels well in this area. I can now say that this has been achieved, with a bit of savvy science from Mr Latte.

I have added my profile picture below from iNuke DSP Software, this is what works well for me on my rig, for x2 Buttkicker Advances in Chassis Mode on the rear of an RseatRS1, this may not work for everyone, as it may be far too strong, as all setups differ, but you should hopefully get the idea, and give it a try for yourselves and have a play with these settings to see what works for you and your Rig setup. And if you do give it a try obviously input this this across both channels A & B

View attachment 200506

View attachment 200521

Thanks for reading this far, and cheers Mr Latte for your time with me on this.

hi could you please post some recent screen shots of you NX settings?
Also I can you were running nearly 400Ws per channel is that right?
My buttkicker amps were only 90Ws per channel so I set mine to that is that correct?
Thanks